What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 110
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  1. #2181
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    Here is a question

    Would YOU rather be defenseless and persecuted / assaulted, or be in a position to defend yourself on equal basis in the event of persecution or assault?

    Think hard on this, imagine yourself in a varity of situations. A small framed female accosted in an urban jungle. A farmer in his field confronted with "robbers". Let your imagination run over the possible situations.

    What seems right? Submission and extermination without resistance just doesn't set right with me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    The two words are not interchangeable.
    Which two words? There are quite a few words in my reply.

    Not trying to be obtuse, etc. I really don't know which you're referring to.
    Last edited by lagweezle; 01-08-2020 at 02:18 AM.

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    BINGO!
    Nonetheless, the idiotic antis just refuse to listen to logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Funny isn’t it how this guy accuses everyone else of living in fear when he, like most gun control advocates, obviously fears the common man so much he only feels comfortable when they are disarmed.
    [sigh] No Scott, it is your every post that shows your fear, not mine, I am perfectly content with my licensed, background checked gun owning neighbors

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Read some of his posts on this and other threads with derogatory comments to and about gun owners and ordinary people aka “bubbas”, rednecks, etc.

    I'm sorry Scott, do you need a safe space?

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    His comment about “Nazis marching in the streets” is especially telling about his phobias. Other than Charlottesville, which was more than three years ago, when have we seen that? And if it did happen it would have been all over the news for weeks at a time.
    Oh really? Portland last August? REally, just find a fact

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Nope, just a scared, angry little man, ranting about guns and insulting all who differ in opinion.
    Coming from someone who's anger leaps off the page. No Scott, I get annoyed by fact free rantings calling into question the entirety of modern gov't because their selfish little point of view is not treated with enough respect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    And as for THIS drivel, I was one of the people whose LTC renewal a few years back was held up until it not only expired but the ninety day grace period almost ran out. After that I could have been arrested and prosecuted merely for retaining what I had legally owned for over thirty years. Up to 10 years in prison if a prosecutor chose to push it and all because the licensing authority chose to play politics by holding up renewals. The same thing happened to hundreds of others and later it was our efforts and testimony that led the legislature to make the grace period indefinite once a renewal was submitted.

    No honest citizen should ever be put in fear of the law but that is exactly what excessive laws and arrogant bureaucrats have caused in Massachusetts.
    So, you participated in the legislative process, and got a majority of the almost entirely democratic legislature to agree to a long overdue fix, wow, guess they took some time out from trying to grab your guns to do something that worked out for you, whoda thunk. Guess you didn't need to take up arms against your oppressors after all

  7. #2185
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Like I said, nothing relevant or factual to say, just name calling and/or childish retorts.

    You have not addressed the fact that the US government has already persecuted, imprisoned and murdered thousands of unarmed, innocent civilians. "Can't happen here" is a fantasy. Already has happened here.
    And you are trying to change the subject and criticize our gov't while you support a gov't that does the same, with no on point facts of any sort

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  9. #2186
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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    Here is a question

    Would YOU rather be defenseless and persecuted / assaulted, or be in a position to defend yourself on equal basis in the event of persecution or assault?

    Think hard on this, imagine yourself in a varity of situations. A small framed female accosted in an urban jungle. A farmer in his field confronted with "robbers". Let your imagination run over the possible situations.

    What seems right? Submission and extermination without resistance just doesn't set right with me.
    I would rather live somewhere where the odds of being killed or wounded by a firearm are as low as is practical

    That is, by and large, in states with rational gun control

    these 'urban jungles' you fear, far more common in free gun states.

    If you are afraid, then pass your background check, get your license, and carry your weapon.

    People do it here all the time.

    No one is exterminating anyone

    your fear is overwhelming you

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    And you are trying to change the subject and criticize our gov't while you support a gov't that does the same, with no on point facts of any sort
    The point, o thick-headed one, is that the purpose of the second amendment was to ensure that the people are not treated to a malevolent tyranny, e.g. the one they just escaped from. The history -- slavery, extermination of the Indians, concentration camps for the slant-eyed Californians, demonstrates that it is not a tinfoil hat conspiracy.

    I'm not going to address your ridiculous assertions cf Chairman Fur, you know no China history beyond what came in Reader's Digest so it is pointless. But assuredly it has no effect on what the reasons for the second amendment are, and the case that an armed populace is not as easily exterminated as a helpless one. Examples given above. Not tinfoil hat territory, history territory. Emmet Till territory. If I were black and lived in the south I would not be satisfied with a 45. I'd want a BAR and 5,000 rounds. Possibly a fucking howitzer.

    This is well within my lifetime, and I don't think human nature changes so fast. It's like having a couple hundred bucks under the mattress ... you never need it until you do. And then you do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    I'm not much of a pacifist. If I had a dream, it would have been to see every worthless mouth-breathing asshole southerner lying face-down in the street in a pool of his own blood. Martin Luther King was a better person than I will ever be.
    Seeing where you hail from it would not surprise me if that included everyone from sea to shining sea


    such vivid imagery, do let me write you a letter of recommendation for a LTC

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post

    No one is exterminating anyone

    your fear is overwhelming you
    You should familiarize yourself with this website.
    A region under control of some of the most powerful politicians in America.
    This condition exists because they want it to exist.

    The 2d Amendment doesn't have a "But, If or When" clause.
    No applications. No permits. No fees. No begging.

    Chicago Crime 2019 | Chicago Murder, Crime & Mayhem | HeyJackass!

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  15. #2190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    You should familiarize yourself with this website.
    A region under control of some of the most powerful politicians in America.
    This condition exists because they want it to exist.
    Yawn, I can do this all day

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...qyi_G6f4HM3DXT

    boring boring bobble head tactic, try to pull one area out and ignore the rest of the country


    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    The 2d Amendment doesn't have a "But, If or When" clause.
    No applications. No permits. No fees. No begging.

    Chicago Crime 2019 | Chicago Murder, Crime & Mayhem | HeyJackass!
    Liar

    there are no unlimited rights anywhere in the constitution

    Freedom of speech?

    google 'libel'

    freedom of religion?

    pretty sure human sacrifice is a limitation


    Oh, and the 2nd is the only one with a a written in limitation



    so,yeah, BS

  16. #2191
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    Quote Originally Posted by lagweezle View Post
    I'm realizing that getting to the end of this very long--and, I should add, quite educational--thread is going to take me a fair bit longer, I should actually put some form of positive contribution to the overall conversation in here before I claw through the next 11--or more, by the time I get there--pages of content.

    As you all can see, I'm living in California. In one of the major urban areas, even. I'm pretty sure that makes me one of those godless pinko commie ... whatever the other idiotic slurs "the right" uses for "the left" to make sure everyone around knows they're talking about "the evil other". I am strongly in support of some of those evil socialist plots to enslave us all ... like unemployment insurance and medicare and state funded education. I don't want someone getting sick and being permanently in death for things beyond their control, and ignorant people vote for, and do, stupid things that harm the rest of us.

    I am disgusted and appalled by a lot of the legislation originating here, and how utterly pant-on-head stupid and ignorant it is.

    I would like to support the NRA, but until super-recently, it has spent far too much time and money advertising, fear mongering, and forgetting it's supposed to be about the 2nd amendment instead of a partisan, and at times, subtly--or not so subtly, to some--racist mouthpiece. The current purge going on is good, but I'm not sure if it's too little too late, or if the NRA can come far enough of of the self-inflicted mess and get back to it's original purpose. Time will tell...

    Which leads into things that can be done to help improve the current state of affairs regarding "gun violence"--yes, yes, I know, don't get yer knickers in a twist--and stop further infringement, ideally eventually rolling back some. Stop making this an us versus them thing! Liberals, Democrats, Communists, whatever vs "us upstanding, moral, Christian Republicans". I will grant there is "an enemy" but pretending it's everyone that isn't fully supporting "our" view is ignorant, and harmful.

    By making it "us vs them" and pretending there are only two groups, we drive away those who are ignorant, or uncertain, or undecided, and scare them into more concretely joining the group voting to take away their, and our, rights, rather than creating allies to help preserve the rights of all people. Every time some idiot, or group of idiots, dresses in fatigues, armor, and wanders into a Starbucks (or local equivalent) in a heavily populated area with a scary black rifle and sidearm, they do us all a huge disservice by being too obvious and pushing too hard too fast. Every time blatantly racist groups gun-up and make a big showing, without being disowned publicly by us, we do ourselves a disservice. Folks who don't understand there are needs for a gun, folks who are usually targets of racists and bigots, get to see a very public display of scary folks with weapons being supported by the entire gun rights group--because there's only "us" and "them", remember?--so they clearly have no choice to join "them" and vote away everyone's rights. Not saying any of this is right, but if the only thing the more neutral folks see is "us" being scary idiots with weapons, they won't feel like they have a choice but to stop all of us dangerous idiots from having tools of mass murder, blah blah blah.

    Also, using "moral Christians" as a qualifier ... does that mean that Jews can't be moral? Athiests can't? Heck, a fair number of Satanists do a better job of being good people than some supposed moral Christians ( Christians Love Pedophilia Says Church Of Satan ), and by implying that only Christians are good enough, moral enough, whatever, you are forcing everyone else to be the opposition, even if they are just as good, just as moral, and share 99% of the same beliefs but have a slightly different version of 'the rules' as your faith.

    Alluded to earlier, at least a little bit, the "guns make you more a man" trend has thankfully not been embraced by anyone in this thread, but it needs to be smothered and made clear that this attitude is not okay. The advertisements and embracement of scary black rifles making everyone who has them a badass operator festooned with Punisher logos and ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ/"come and take it", while it might be a joke for some, definitely sends the message to a lot that we're all unstable meatheads looking to mete out our own vigilante justice and are just looking for fights with everyone who doesn't completely agree with us. This also teaches our kids that the way to solve problems is to grab a gun, and get violent, rather than dealing with being a human, and with problems, in a reasonable, non-deadly manner, until there are no options left but violence.

    So, what can we do? (again; yeah, my thoughts are a tad jumbled)

    Show everyone that we can be stable, reasonable, good members of society while also being a gun owner. Do outreach! Be a good neighbor. Gently introduce folks that know nothing about firearms to the world of target shooting. Engage those other people in friendly conversation. Answer any questions they have about firearms, hunting, etc. Show them that we are just like them, we just happen to have a different hobby than them. If you do it right, you'll find an opening to bring them to the range and shoot a few rounds of 22. They might like it, they might hate it, but at least do our part to show them we aren't fight hungry nutjobs with scary black plastic whose only purpose is murdering everyone.

    There is nothing wrong with ignorance.
    We need to do our part to help the ignorant discover the truth by being approachable, by being the friendly, open, rational people that we are, and helping them understand.


    ... and personally, I'd love if we could get "the public" comfortable enough that the Gordian Knot of laws in California could be undone, so I could make a working scale replica of some field artillery on my lathe and mill, that can use 22LR or such, without risking committing a felony... or have a chance of getting a CCW permit w/o having to bribe the Sheriff or move.
    Growing up on a family farm in a rural part of a state run by liberal citiots, my us vs them attitude was set in stone a long time ago. Rural people in new York are forced to live by laws made for them by people who have no idea what they do or how they do it. Emperor Cuomo is doing the best he can to bring an already struggling industry to it's knees. If you have over 200 head of cattle you have to lease so many acres per head and document how many acres you spread manure on, how many gallons of it, that week's rainfall, which way the wind was blowing. They're trying to pass legislation to tax cow farts, and he wants to unionize unskilled farm workers. There's plenty of people that share his same ideals and want to control our lives but have never set foot outside of NYC. These are the people that I'm supposed to make amends with to discuss "common sense" gun laws? I'm sorry but they have already reached "I do not negotiate with terrorists" status with me. The tofu farters can vote for whatever they want ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    Growing up on a family farm in a rural part of a state run by liberal citiots, my us vs them attitude was set in stone a long time ago. Rural people in new York are forced to live by laws made for them by people who have no idea what they do or how they do it. Emperor Cuomo is doing the best he can to bring an already struggling industry to it's knees. If you have over 200 head of cattle you have to lease so many acres per head and document how many acres you spread manure on, how many gallons of it, that week's rainfall, which way the wind was blowing. They're trying to pass legislation to tax cow farts, and he wants to unionize unskilled farm workers. There's plenty of people that share his same ideals and want to control our lives but have never set foot outside of NYC. These are the people that I'm supposed to make amends with to discuss "common sense" gun laws? I'm sorry but they have already reached "I do not negotiate with terrorists" status with me. The tofu farters can vote for whatever they want ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Im sorry, but over 200 head of cattle, it is not ridiculous to figure out where the poop is going,

    Unless you live in Death Valley, that poop is going somewhere that is someone else's property, in someones river, in someones well

    Regulation is frequently annoying

    Doesn't make it wrong

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    _

    HEY

    I just want to point out that in 110 pages, I just LIKED a post made by gustafson




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    Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers | What’s inside a feral hog’s stomach? You name it
    They did not mention occasional humans!
    Looks like everyone south of the Canadian border and living in the country needs to have a rifle and step up and do their part in controlling pigs.

    Integrated Wild Pig Control™ | JAGER PRO Hog Control
    These people are experts on the subject and believe an semi-automatic .308 is adequate and an AR15 is too wimpy. My son's experience with a single shot .223 is a well placed shot could kill a pig but occasionally 10 shots was not enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Im sorry, but over 200 head of cattle, it is not ridiculous to figure out where the poop is going,

    Unless you live in Death Valley, that poop is going somewhere that is someone else's property, in someones river, in someones well

    Regulation is frequently annoying

    Doesn't make it wrong
    In any situation I would have more respect for regulations influenced by people that were experts in the given field. Feels like more often than not it's some bean counter's wet dream.

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  24. #2196
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    In any situation I would have more respect for regulations influenced by people that were experts in the given field. Feels like more often than not it's some bean counter's wet dream.
    I am certain you are correct

    I think to imply that industry has no role in regulation is disingenuous

    They spend billions a year on it

    Not saying that the particular regulations[WRT cattle] are reasonable, but i am pretty sure industry had some say in them

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post

    Oh, and the 2nd is the only one with a a written in limitation
    Wrong again. A simple find and replace shows the fallacy of that argument. To assume that the authors of the Constitution intended a different meaning for the phrase "the people" in a single amendment is beyond ridiculous.

    Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Press
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the National Guard peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    Amendment 2 - The Right to Bear Arms
    A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the National Guard to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

    Amendment 4 - Protection from Unreasonable Searches and Seizures
    The right of the National Guard to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

    Amendment 9 - Other Rights Kept by the National Guard
    The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the National Guard.

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  27. #2198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Wrong again. A simple find and replace shows the fallacy of that argument. To assume that the authors of the Constitution intended a different meaning for the phrase "the people" in a single amendment is beyond ridiculous.

    Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion, Speech, and the Press
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the National Guard peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    Amendment 2 - The Right to Bear Arms
    A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the National Guard to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.

    Amendment 4 - Protection from Unreasonable Searches and Seizures
    The right of the National Guard to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.

    Amendment 9 - Other Rights Kept by the National Guard
    The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the National Guard.

    You are just being silly,
    '
    an amendment with the phrase 'well regulated' in it cannot be imagined to mean 'not well regulated'

    And that is just the minor point, the major point is that all rights have their limitations and have laws that limit them

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    You are just being silly,
    '
    an amendment with the phrase 'well regulated' in it cannot be imagined to mean 'not well regulated'

    And that is just the minor point, the major point is that all rights have their limitations and have laws that limit them
    Bullshit!

    The Constitution makes no mention of such limitations not specified within the amendments themselves. It was written in plain easy to understand English for a reason. For example, the 4th Amendment specifically mentions "unreasonable searches and seizures" and clearly defines that what is reasonable is that any warrants issued shall be "upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

    The amendment does not prohibit searches and seizures but sets a high standard for when and how they can be conducted.

    Similarly, the 1st Amendment sets no limit on the individual right to freedom of speech and religion while at the same time prohibiting the government from establishing an official religion AND limiting the right of the people to assemble to peaceable gatherings only.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

    The limitation on non-peaceable gatherings IS specified in the amendment itself.

    In the same manner the 5th Amendment does not prohibit depriving a person of "life, liberty, or property" but requires that it only be done by "due process of law" and does not prohibit the taking of private property for public use but requires "just compensation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    You are just being silly,
    '
    an amendment with the phrase 'well regulated' in it cannot be imagined to mean 'not well regulated'

    And that is just the minor point, the major point is that all rights have their limitations and have laws that limit them
    Wow, this ignorant old trope again. This has been explained to you repeatedly with solid documentation. Just stop.


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