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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    It is funny to me that two people can read the same document and take contradictory opinions of the meaning.

    This debate over original intention is a recent one, perhaps in the last 30 years, and I question the validity of the argument based not on the documents of the times but the actions of those involved.

    For source documentation, none of my opinions come from alt right or militia publications, but from reading primary documents.

    That being said, I would ask this question; if our founding fathers had not intended for our country to have an armed populace, why has our government spent an inordinate amount of money, both historically and up into recent history, arming and equipping "the militia"? Why has, in the selection of every service rifle up to modern day, arming "the militia" been a concern from the Secretary of War down to the commanders of the Arsenals tasked with making the weapons and equipment?

    (tongue in cheek) I do not think even the alt-right and trump conspiracies go back THAT far? Do they?
    And they (the government) have sold surplus military firearms to civilians almost since the founding of the country. Why would they do that if the intent was to keep citizens grossly inferior in arms to government troops?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Nonetheless they believed in regulation of firearms, that is undeniable
    Nonsense. Fire safety regulations are not "regulation of firearms".

    It IS deniable, and we deny it. Stop quoting gun control advocates if you want to be taken seriously.

    Perhaps next you'll offer Jon Rosenthal as an expert on the Constitution and early history?

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    Just for humor, and because it was the only Chief of Ordnance I had handy that I was familiar with, this comes from 1892 Chief of Ordnance report to the Secretary of War. This appendix lists the material distributed to the Militia.

    Bear with me as this is copied from a pdf and it doesn't always carry over well.

    APPENDIX 4.
    Statement of ordnance, ordnance stores, etc., distribuled to the militia
    from July 1, 18.91, to June 30, 1892, under sections 1661 and 1667, Re
    riscd Statutes United States.
    r CLASS I.
    2 3-inch wroughtiron guns.
    6 Gatling guns, 10 barrels, long, caliber .45, model 1883.
    CLASS II.
    2 carriages and limbers for 3-inch guns. _
    6 carriages and limbers (metallic) for Gatling guns, culi
    ber .45. Y
    4 caissons and limbers, complete, for 32-inch guns.
    1 combined forge and battery wagon.
    CLASS III.
    8 fuse cutters.
    8 fuse gouges.
    1 fuse wrench.
    4 gunners’ haversacks.
    10 gunners’ gimlets.
    6 gunners’ pincers.
    34 handspikes, trail.
    16 lanyards.
    12 priming wires.
    11 prolonges.
    4 poles, spare.
    4 pole pads.
    4 pairs pole straps.
    2 pole yokes, field.
    9 paulins, 12 by 15 feet.
    8 pendulum hausses.
    6 pendulum hansse pouches.
    20 sets artillery harness, two horses, lead.
    20 sets artillery harness, two horses, wheel.
    2 sponge buckets, iron.
    2 tar buckets iron.
    8 sponges mui rammcrs, 6-pounder gun.
    48 sponges and rummcrs. 55-inch rifle.
    16 sponge covers, Ii-inch rifle.
    20 thuinhstalls.
    2 tube pouches.
    4 tow-hooks.
    6 tompions.
    10 vent covers.
    8 vent punches.
    6 worms and stavcs.
    12 water buckets.
    30 whips, artillery.
    6 wheels, artillery.
    13 bridles, artillery, near horse.
    20 halters, artillery.
    6 muzzle sights, 3-inch rifle.
    3 keys for muffs.
    6 lanterns, globe.
    8 sponge staves, 3-inch gun.
    8 linchpins, No. 1.
    8 linchpin washers, No. 1.
    1 cap square for 6-pounder carriage.
    2 muzzle sights for 6-pouuder gun.
    3 prolonge hooks.
    4 lock chain and hooks.
    IMPLEMENTS FOR GATLING GUNS.
    16 feed magazines, Acclcs.
    8 feed guides, Bruce.
    2 hoppers.
    CLASSES IV AND V.
    20 10-inch shell.
    100 3.2-inch shell.
    25 3-inch Hotchkiss shell, time fuse. '
    250 3-inch Hotchkiss shell, percussion fuse, fully prepared.
    50 3-iuch Hotchkiss case shot.
    Gnass VI.
    3, 527 Springfield rifles, model 1884.
    40 Springfield cadet rifles, model 1884.
    10 Springfield ofllcers’ rifles, model 1884.
    154 Springfield carbines, model 1884.
    200 Colt’s revolvers, caliber .45.
    9 officers’ swords and cases.
    26 sabers, cavalry ofllcers, and cases.
    143 sabers, light artillery.
    120 sabers, light cavalry.
    157 swords, non-commissioned oflicers’.
    119 swords, musicians’.
    710 bayonets.
    25 navy entlasses.
    24 hospital corps knives and scabbards.
    APPEND AGES.
    895 headless shell extractors.
    2457 screw-drivers, model 1879.
    2, 429 wooden wiping'rods.
    184 jointed ramrods.
    376 tumbler punches.
    103 spring vises.
    HORSE EQUIPMENTS.
    '313 bridles, curb, cavalry.
    1, pair curb straps.
    26 cruppers.
    334 saddles, leather covered, cavalry.
    49 saddle blankets, artillery.
    169 saddle blankets, cavalry.
    19 saddle cloths, general stafl' officers.
    3 saddle cloths, officers of cavalry.
    6 saddle cloths, oflicers of infantry.
    20 saddle cloths, ofllcers’.
    48 saddle cloths, hair.
    1 housing for brigadier-general’s saddle.
    16 housings for general ofiicer’s saddle.
    1 pair spurs and straps, oflicers’.
    167 pairs spurs and straps.
    25 pairs spur straps.
    105 horse brushes.
    138 nose bags.
    105 horse covers.
    20 lariats.
    183 links with straps.
    41 stirrups and hoods.
    22 hair girths.
    121 snreingles.
    1 stirrup socket and guidon.
    1 throat strap.
    INFANTRY nouirmas'rs.
    2, 613 bayonet scabbards.
    4, 404 blanket bags.
    100 blanket-bag books.
    6, 313 pairs blanket-bag shoulder straps.
    6, 354 pairs blanket-bag coat straps.
    3,002 canteens and straps.
    2, 250 canteen straps.
    1, 393 cartridge belts and plates.
    200 cartridge-belt plates.
    3, 202 cartridge boxes.
    3, 555 haversacks.
    4, 220 haversack straps.
    6,088 gun slings.
    229 frogs, sliding, non-commissioned oillcers’.
    3, 036 waist belts and plates.
    3,000 waist belts.
    78 waist belt plates.
    192 waist belts and plates, non-co|mnissioncd ollicers’.
    21 ofilcers’ black leather sword belts.
    305 meet cans.
    1,300 tin cups.
    1,000 knives.
    1,000 forks.
    1,000 spoons.
    All'I‘ILLERY ACCOUTERMBNTS.
    413 artillery saber bells and plates.
    50 light artillery knapszwks.
    CAVALRY EQUIPMENTS.
    239 carbine slings and swivels.
    113 carbine boots and straps.
    40 carbine bouts.
    105 carbine scabbards.
    155 canteens and straps.
    215 pistol holsters.
    140 pistol cartridge pouches (cap pouches).
    296 saber belts and plates.
    270 saber knots.
    210 saber straps.
    55 saber attachments.
    15 sword belts and plates, ofliccrs’, black leather.
    1 scabbard for saber.
    CLAss VIII.
    500 blank cartridges, 12-ponnder gun.
    2, 200 blank cartridges, 3-inch rifle.
    100 blank cartridges, 3.2-inch rifle.
    1,525,000 rifle ball cartridges, caliber .45.
    005, 000 rifle ball cartridges, caliber .50.
    149, 000 carbine-ball cartridges, caliber .45.
    372, 000 rifle and carbine blank cartridges, caliber .45.
    17,500 rifle blank cartridges, caliber .50. .
    10, 000 revolver ball cartridges, caliber .45.
    1, 000 revolver blank cartridges, caliber .45.
    127, 000 lubricated rifle bullets, caliber .45.
    130, 000 round balls (140 grains), caliber .45.
    16, 000 carbine bullets, caliber .45.
    30, 000 primed cartridge shells (rifle), caliber .45.
    5, 000 revolver bullets, caliber .45.
    420, 000 cartridge primers.
    23, 000 friction primers.
    50 Bormann fuses.
    50 fuse plugs, time.
    200 fuse plugs, wood, 10-inch mortar shell.
    50 cartridge bags, 10-inch.
    300 cartridge bags, 3-inch rifle.
    200 cartridge bags, 6-pounder gun.
    400 pounds cannon powder.
    200 pounds mortar powder.
    300 pounds mammoth powder.
    .1,
    300 pounds small arms powder.
    MISCELLANEOUS.
    99 arm chests.
    6 arm racks, portable, for rifle.
    2 arm racks, portable, for carbine.
    3 arm-rack keys.
    14 boxes cleaning material.
    1 set bench reloading tools.
    6 chamois-skin cases.
    745 centers for paper targets.
    966 cloth silhouettes.
    4, 690 paper silhouettes. .
    4 sets hand reloading tools.
    850 marksman’s buttons.
    80 marksman’s pins.
    179 sharpshooters’ badges.
    122 silver bars for badges.
    50 sand glasses.
    10 streamers with halyards.
    20 wire scratch brushes.
    7 targets for gallery practice, 75 feet range.
    2 targets for gallery practice, 50 feet range.
    8 sets marking rods, disks, and brushes.
    164 steel frames for targets. ‘
    24 signal flags.
    200 yards cloth for targets.
    8 Laidley revolving targets, 6 by 6 feet.
    4 Laidley revolving targets, 6 by 12 feet. ,
    96 Laidley target frames, 6 by 6 feet.
    6 Laidley target frames, 6 by 12 feet.
    1, 7 88, 250 pasters.
    2,945 paper targets.
    2 Brinton targets, 6 by 6 feet.
    2 Brinton targets, 6 by 12 feet.
    24 Brinton target frames, 6 by 6 feet.
    24 Brinton target frames, 6 by 12 feet.
    5 revolving targets, Texas.
    2 primer extracting tools.
    2 primer inserting tools.
    2 shell scrapers.
    2 powder charging tools.
    2 resizing gauges.
    PARTS OF SPRINGFIELD RIFLE, CALIBER .45.
    55 bayonet clasps.
    285 bayonet-clasp screws.
    10 bayonet-clasp stop screws.
    80 bridles. '
    430 bridle screws.
    76 breechblocks.
    17 breechbhck caps.
    137 breechblock cap screws.
    53 breech screws.
    10 butt plates.
    25 butt-plate Screws.
    45 cam latches.
    905 cam-latch springs.
    40 cam latches, complete.
    1,341 extractors.
    2,355 ejector springs.
    2, 585 ejector-spring spindles.
    322 front sights.
    250 frontsight covers.
    365 front-sight pins.
    4, 650 firing pins.
    800 firing-pin screws.
    55 guards, complete.
    12 guard plates.
    150 guard-bow swivels.
    200 guard-bow swivel screws.
    66 hinge pins.
    10 hinge-pin studs.
    165 hammers.
    191 lower bands.
    77 locks, complete.
    35 lock plates.
    140 leaf slide binding screws.
    10 leaf-slide stop pins.
    35 mainsprings.
    242 mainspring swivels.
    100 mainspring-swivel rivets.
    15 movable base springs.
    5 pisth grips. ,
    709 rear sights, complete.
    60 rear-sight leaves.
    60 rear-sight joint pins.
    25 rear-sight slides.
    35 rear-sight screws, front.
    35 rear-sight screws, rear.
    247 ramrods.
    650 sears.
    470 sear screws.
    10 sear-spring screws.
    550 side screws.
    100 side-screw washers.
    495 stocks, complete.
    115 stocks (wood part).
    850 tumblers.
    1, 074 tumbler screw.
    320 tang screws.
    10 tips.
    10 tip screws.
    5 thumb pieces.
    37 triggers.
    12 trigger screws.
    516 upper bands, complete.
    164 windage screws.
    24 wiudage head screws.
    24 windage head screw pins.
    150 rear-sight base screws.
    50 rear-sight slide spring rivets.
    250 front and rear base screws (slide recoil stud).
    PARTS cow’s REVOLVER, CALIBER .45.
    25 trigger screws.
    50 mainspring screws.
    50 bolts.
    2 quarts cosmoline

    Keep in mind, the rifle that was given, was still the US Arm of the day. The Krag Jorgensen had not been adopted and the Trials were still under way.

    So to argue that the founding fathers had no intention of an armed population seems to have been missed on day one. The US Government gave, distributed, dispersed, however you want to say it, weapons and equipment to the US population, specifically called "the militia", from the beginning of the country up until modern times. Weapons and equipment that should have been kept on hand to supply the regular standing army... had we had one. We did not. Among a myriad of reasons.

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    And as recently as 1996 the Civilian Marksmanship Program (CMP) was administered by the U.S. Army. The Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety was then chartered as a nonprofit to administer the CMP, which is still in operation today.

    Civilian Marksmanship Program - Wikipedia

    Home - Civilian Marksmanship Program

    They sell surplus rifles and ammunition to qualified citizens.

    Sales & Services - Civilian Marksmanship Program

    And as for the Service Rifle competitions, note that the rifles being fired are a lot more modern than flintlocks.

    Small Arms Firing School Training - Civilian Marksmanship Program

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    From the Secretary of War to a Lt. Col:
    Under the provisions of the act of April 23, 1808, " for arming and
    equipping the whole body of the militia of the United States," the Ord
    nance Department must be governed in providing for and issuing to the
    militia only such arms and military equipments as are provided for the
    Army. A strict adherence to this rule is rendered necessary, as the
    militia, when in actual service, must be supplied with fixed ammunition,
    &c, from the magazines and depots provided for the Army.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Nonsense. Fire safety regulations are not "regulation of firearms".

    It IS deniable, and we deny it. Stop quoting gun control advocates if you want to be taken seriously.

    Perhaps next you'll offer Jon Rosenthal as an expert on the Constitution and early history?
    nonsense

    they are regulating firearms not fires

    IF they passed this ordinance tomorrow in your town would you shrug and say they are regulating fires?

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    And as for the definition of militia, it is codified by law under 10 U.S. Code § 246.

    10 U.S. Code SS 246 - Militia: composition and classes | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute

    (a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
    (b) The classes of the militia are—

    (1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and

    (2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.

    Members of the unorganized militia number in the millions. How many able-bodied males between 17 years of age and 45 years of age who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia do you think there are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    It is funny to me that two people can read the same document and take contradictory opinions of the meaning.

    This debate over original intention is a recent one, perhaps in the last 30 years, and I question the validity of the argument based not on the documents of the times but the actions of those involved.

    For source documentation, none of my opinions come from alt right or militia publications, but from reading primary documents.

    That being said, I would ask this question; if our founding fathers had not intended for our country to have an armed populace, why has our government spent an inordinate amount of money, both historically and up into recent history, arming and equipping "the militia"? Why has, in the selection of every service rifle up to modern day, arming "the militia" been a concern from the Secretary of War down to the commanders of the Arsenals tasked with making the weapons and equipment?

    (tongue in cheek) I do not think even the alt-right and trump conspiracies go back THAT far? Do they?
    The militia, as an alternative to a standing army, was intended to be under state control

    They feared greatly a a standing army and considered the militia an alternative. The side benefit was that in 1789 the gov't could not afford to arm an army

    [edit]

    and if you read the federalist papers, you can see the gist of what was going on. Federalists believed in a strong central gov't

    The Federalist papers were a series of OP Eds trying to convince a skeptical public to give up a level of control and power to a central gov't they were naturally suspicious of. The concern was Federal power vs the power of the, at that time, independent, states.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    Just for humor, and because it was the only Chief of Ordnance I had handy that I was familiar with, this comes from 1892 Chief of Ordnance report to the Secretary of War. This appendix lists the material distributed to the Militia.

    Bear with me as this is copied from a pdf and it doesn't always carry over well.

    APPENDIX 4.
    Statement of ordnance, ordnance stores, etc., distribuled to the militia
    from July 1, 18.91, to June 30, 1892, under sections 1661 and 1667, Re
    riscd Statutes United States.
    r CLASS I.
    2 3-inch wroughtiron guns.
    6 Gatling guns, 10 barrels, long, caliber .45, model 1883.
    CLASS II.
    2 carriages and limbers for 3-inch guns. _
    6 carriages and limbers (metallic) for Gatling guns, culi
    ber .45. Y


    IMPLEMENTS FOR GATLING GUNS.
    16 feed magazines, Acclcs.
    8 feed guides, Bruce.
    2 hoppers.

    Keep in mind, the rifle that was given, was still the US Arm of the day. The Krag Jorgensen had not been adopted and the Trials were still under way.

    So to argue that the founding fathers had no intention of an armed population seems to have been missed on day one. The US Government gave, distributed, dispersed, however you want to say it, weapons and equipment to the US population, specifically called "the militia", from the beginning of the country up until modern times. Weapons and equipment that should have been kept on hand to supply the regular standing army... had we had one. We did not. Among a myriad of reasons.
    Since lightening up a bit. I couple of years ago I saw a couple ads for Gatling guns for sale. Originals with brass furniture sell in the $350,000 to $500,000 range. One of the ads said the gun would be the center of attention in any room that it was in. I think if a space shuttle and the Gatling gun were in the same room it would be a toss up which garnered the most attention.

    CMP also sold 1.65 inch mountain guns(2 pounders). They were just a couple dollars more than the Krags, money was so tight then that not many were bought by the public. Originals are now selling in the range of $30,000.

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    Connecticut:

    3D Printed Gun Seized During Arrest in Connecticut | Impro Guns

    Man arrested for carrying a firearm without a permit. Gun was 3D printed plastic with a steel tube for a barrel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Connecticut:

    3D Printed Gun Seized During Arrest in Connecticut | Impro Guns

    Man arrested for carrying a firearm without a permit. Gun was 3D printed plastic with a steel tube for a barrel.
    And the thing I've often wondered is how long before someone machines a simple steel sub-chassis and mounts it in a 3D printed grip frame? There are plenty of polymer pistols built essentially that way and I don't see why they couldn't bond/pin the sub-chassis into place. CNC machining and 3D printing plus CAD modeling takes a lot of the artisan work out and I think technology has in many ways made gun control potentially less effective.

    Those crude 3D printed things are what we see. What are the odds people are already doing something more sophisticated and keeping quiet about it.

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    likely gonna kiss our aks good buy. AKs and ARs

    Good I don't have one and they are not talking about SKSs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Those crude 3D printed things are what we see. What are the odds people are already doing something more sophisticated and keeping quiet about it.
    Not keeping quiet:
    The FGC9 – A 3D Printed Semi Auto 9mm Firearm | Impro Guns

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    Over 2200 posts and no mention of Hitler yet?

    Damn! I just did.

    I guess this thread can now end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by michiganbuck View Post
    likely gonna kiss our aks good buy. AKs and ARs

    Good I don't have one and they are not talking about SKSs.
    If you think for a moment that this is all the liberals/socialists are after, you're an IDIOT!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The article is an excerpt from the book and this line, "guns they used to strip Native Americans of their land and rule enslaved Africans", shows his left-wing bias. The reality is that the majority of guns owned were never used for either purpose. Most people did not own slaves and the "Native Americans" local militias fought were allied with the French during the French and Indian War. The Indian wars in New England were a century earlier.
    The funny part is, this guy is making the case against himself. As I said earlier, if the slaves had been sleeping with a Weatherby, then Massa up on the hill would have behaved a lot better. It was the government that the slaves needed to arm themselves against, e.g. Dred Scott. Later on it was Southern sheriffs and the KKK (Richard Russell on weekend outings) and the local juries that engaged in or justified lynchings. Again, government.

    As for the Indians, you are mistaken, Scott, the last of the Indian wars was in the 1890's -- when again it was the government that sent forces to murder a group of people who were in the way. This is exactly the situation that an armed populace would correct. If the Sioux had been much better armed, perhaps Great White Father would have honored a few more treaties.

    He certainly could not have honored fewer, since there is not a single one that he didn't break.

    This dickhead is actually arguing the case that we the people need weapons to protect ourselves from an unethical government. It would be entertaining, if the guncontrollers had anything under their hats

    Also somewhat entertaining that gustafson doesn't think this history is "off-topic" or "irrelevant" when his own guy is (mis)using it. Goose, gander, etc

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    If you want a more recent example, how does 1982 sound? Google "Discovering Dominga".

    A book about St. Charles, MO, just across the Missouri River from where I live, that I am reading says that in the early 1800s the US government paid for Indian scalps.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yan Wo View Post
    Over 2200 posts and no mention of Hitler yet?

    Damn! I just did.

    I guess this thread can now end.
    Or not...........

  29. #2260
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    I guess if you’re a dickhead with poor reading comprehension you might make a reply like this to my comment that “The Indian wars in New England were a century earlier.”

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    As for the Indians, you are mistaken, Scott, the last of the Indian wars was in the 1890's
    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The Indian wars in New England were a century earlier.
    “The Indian wars in NEW ENGLAND were a century earlier.”

    Of course if most of your “knowledge” of American history was gained at the feet of your PRC buddies it would be easy to miss this. Probably the most famous settler/Indian conflict in New England was King Philip's War which ended in 1678, more than a century before the founding of the United States. After New Hampshire ratified the Constitution it was agreed that government under the U.S. Constitution would begin on March 4, 1789.

    King Philip's War - Wikipedia

    Here is a history of some of the conflicts of the era.

    Early Indian Wars in New England | Access Genealogy

    King William’s War was instigated by the French, as were Queen Anne’s War and Lovewell’s War. They were part of the French and Indian wars, in which local militia fought under British command. Both sides had Indian allies.

    New England militias had nothing to do with the conflict with the Sioux, or any of the other Indian wars of the west. Those were fought by the U.S. Cavalry, a mounted component of the U.S. Army.

    PS: for those who might claim I am being too harsh on the dickhead by calling him same here is part of the same post from him quoted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    This dickhead is actually arguing the case that we the people need weapons to protect ourselves from an unethical government.


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