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  1. #2261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    .

    PS: for those who might claim I am being too harsh
    Scott, think about how he bristled when I criticized Chairman Mao

    What one group on the planet defends Mao?

    Only the truly 'politically correct' in its original meaning

    both sides against the middle.

    Think on that

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I guess if you’re a dickhead with poor reading comprehension you might make a reply like this to my comment that “The Indian wars in New England were a century earlier.”
    The dickhead I was referring to was Igor Volsky, the guy who blamed the Indians and slaves for being killed end terrorized by guns. Guns in the hands of the government.

    'scuse me a second, I gotta tighten my tinfoil helmet, only the government should have guns because they are good and honest and ethical and would never do anything bad.

    The sentence you refer to was pretty hard to follow, cap'tain, mea culpa. But anyhow, my point was simply that the Indians were slaughtered by the government, if they had been better armed it would not have been as easy. Hence, 2nd amendment as a curb to government excess is not 'conspiracy theory.'

    Sorry if you thought I was referring to you.

    This statement, however, is flat wrong - "The reality is that the majority of guns owned were never used for either purpose." Maybe guns were not used much against slaves, but whips and chains were. And the guns were there for backup. In the case of Indians, sorry, guns were the primary weapon. But that's beside the point ...

    “The Indian wars in NEW ENGLAND were a century earlier.”
    I am aware of that. One of my great-greats was killed by Joseph Brant.

    To be fair to Joseph, the relative deserved it. He was prancing around in his velvet clothes showing off for the girls instead of paying attention. No hard feelings, redskin.

    Don't bother telling me that New York is not New England. To us westerners, you're all a bunch of back-east tenderfeet ... Or worse, Pilgrim

    Of course if most of your “knowledge” of American history was gained at the feet of your PRC buddies it would be easy to miss this.
    You are not doing your credibility any good with this

    New England militias had nothing to do with the conflict with the Sioux, or any of the other Indian wars of the west. Those were fought by the U.S. Cavalry, a mounted component of the U.S. Army.
    But both the militias and the cavalry are arms of the government, which was my (intended) point. Govenments often do bad things. If you are unarmed, as were the slaves, then you are toast. Evidence suggests that this is not tinfoil-hat paranoia.

    At least the Sioux got a few victories in before they were slaughtered. If they were better-armed they could have got more, imo.

    PS: for those who might claim I am being too harsh on the dickhead by calling him same here is part of the same post from him quoted above.
    Sticks and stones don't bother me much, it's okay. Did remind me of The Wanderers tho - "pricks wit eahs" If you haven't seen that, you should. It's great. "Leave da kid alone ..." Seriously, you'd love it. I think.

    Or maybe not, maybe you'd think it was too left-wing ... seriously, Scottl, sheesh ... you can get too carried away with the demons under the bed, ya know ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson
    Scott, think about how he bristled when I criticized Chairman Mao

    What one group on the planet defends Mao?
    I don't know about "what one" but I do know that a huge number of older people, mostly gone now, venerated Chairman Mao. Long after his death and even after the white cat handler had left the scene, you'd see Mao posters on the walls of places all over. People coming out of his tomb with tears running down their faces. Many many many average, normal people admired the man.

    Of course you will not admit this because you have your head up your ass, you know everything there is to know about China from your comfy little rocking chair ten thousand miles away. But life is different here in the villages ...

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    EmanuelGoldstein,

    Thanks for clearing that up. I'm sorry I called you a dickhead.

    I see that you realize I thought you were referring to me in the post responding to one of mine. As you well know we have a member or two here with a habit of hurling insults at others and it tends to make people a little edgy about responses.

    On the issue of armed citizens, for some who may not know the history I thought I would share a few highlights. The "shot heard round the world" that began the armed conflict between England and the American colonists started after the British troops marched from Boston to Concord in an attempt to seize militia arms and ammunition.

    On the way they undoubtedly passed many homes containing firearms. The most common would have been a smooth bore fowler or even a Fusil de Chasse for the more affluent, possibly even a rifle. No doubt a few individuals also had muskets although not in the quantities believed to be stored at Concord.

    I will once again repeat the challenge first raised by author Stephan Halbrook.

    Since he and other scholars have never been able to find any writings from the period claiming that the 2nd Amendment was a collective rather than an individual right, as is the modern claim, if any of you feel there is proof to the contrary please post links to the source material.

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    [QUOTE=Scottl;3472233]
    "I will once again repeat the challenge first raised by author Stephan Halbrook."

    Well since the USSC (and lower courts as well!) are no longer able to make any ruling that deviates
    from what the original authors of the constitution wrote down, and any amendments as well,, then it makes sense to
    simply disband the entire court structure. No need for any judiciary, all we need are guys like
    Halbrook to explain how our laws ought to work.

    Or, is the second amendment somehow deserving of special coddling to be sure it says what *you* want it to say?
    Maybe you need to weigh in on some of the other amendments that displease you, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Very impressive. Thanks for sharing. I found that ECM barrel rifling trick fascinating.

    The concept of the FGC9 is not all that different from some commercial arms. I got a chance to closely examine and fire a SUB2000 9mm carbine and I was amazed at the simplicity. Essentially everything except the plastic frame, forend , butt stock and sights is a fairly simple machined piece of steel. The molded 2-piece plastic frame and forend fasten together with screws and nuts. Even the trigger is plastic.

    That little sucker may be simple but it digested every load we fired through it without a miss and breakdown for cleaning only involves pushing out a large pin that holds the butt stock on. I am now 100% convinced that modern technology and materials has made the manufacture of firearms something that can be done not only by small manufacturers but even probably as a DIY venture if people chose to do so.

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    When I wish to understand law, I find it useful to research the language and definitions of the time.

    To that extent I believe that the phrase, "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State," is more of an observation than a required condition.

    Next, I like to learn what the thinking was of the people that wrote the law.
    To that end, these are some of the things said by Jefferson on the topic of the 2d Amendment.

    "No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms."

    "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

    "Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."

    quotation-thomas-jefferson-constitutions-most-our-states-assert-all-14-56-66.jpg

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    None of the other bill of rights amendments have any "observations." The authors were quite sparing of words, and only used
    ones that were specifically needed. Every word in each one does something.

    Example:

    Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof.

    Not much in the way of 'general observation' in that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    And the thing I've often wondered is how long before someone machines a simple steel sub-chassis and mounts it in a 3D printed grip frame? There are plenty of polymer pistols built essentially that way and I don't see why they couldn't bond/pin the sub-chassis into place. CNC machining and 3D printing plus CAD modeling takes a lot of the artisan work out and I think technology has in many ways made gun control potentially less effective.

    Those crude 3D printed things are what we see. What are the odds people are already doing something more sophisticated and keeping quiet about it.
    A scan from an old airco cutting torch book.

    During WW2, a Canadian firm contracted to build handguns , (not sure of the model) and the frame was simply oxy flame cut
    with a motorized tracing rig.

    It said minimal machining was needed.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails flamecutting-gunparts-1.jpg   flamecutting-gunparts-2.jpg   flamecutting-gunparts-3.jpg   flamecutting-gunparts-4.jpg   flamecutting-gunparts-5.jpg  

    Last edited by digger doug; 01-11-2020 at 01:07 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    None of the other bill of rights amendments have any "observations." The authors were quite sparing of words, and only used
    ones that were specifically needed. Every word in each one does something.

    Example:

    Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, nor the free exercise thereof.

    Not much in the way of 'general observation' in that.
    Well then how would you interpret the opening clause of the 2d Amendment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Well then how would you interpret the opening clause of the 2d Amendment?
    It's a prepositional phrase, adding a little color to the main sentence. But the declarative sentence stands on its own without the phrase - that is, Congress shall not infringe. No matter the argument of what was intended, this is what they wrote and signed into law. This is what the law is.

    If they had written "Because we were hungry this morning we decided to have biscuits, therefore biscuits shall not be taxed", then the law is "biscuits shall not be taxed", not speculations about whether this should only happen on days when people were hungry.

    English grammar, pretty straightforward in this sentence. Diagram it.

    The only reason people grab onto these extraneous phrases is to try to castrate the actual law to mean something it does not. If the phrase were "In order to control niggers, ..." it still would not matter. The law is "shall not infringe." The rest is weaselling.

    Don't like the law, fine. Change it. But don't pretend it says something it does not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    It's a prepositional phrase, adding a little color to the main sentence. But the declarative sentence stands on its own without the phrase - that is, Congress shall not infringe. No matter the argument of what was intended, this is what they wrote and signed into law. This is what the law is.

    If they had written "Because we were hungry this morning we decided to have biscuits, therefore biscuits shall not be taxed", then the law is "biscuits shall not be taxed", not speculations about whether this should only happen on days when people were hungry.

    English grammar, pretty straightforward in this sentence. Diagram it.

    The only reason people grab onto these extraneous phrases is to try to castrate the actual law to mean something it does not. If the phrase were "In order to control niggers, ..." it still would not matter. The law is "shall not infringe." The rest is weaselling.

    Don't like the law, fine. Change it. But don't pretend it says something it does not.
    Exactly. And thank you.
    I'll set 'em up, you knock 'em down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    The only reason people grab onto these extraneous phrases is to try to castrate the actual law to mean something it does not. If the phrase were "In order to control niggers, ..." it still would not matter. The law is "shall not infringe." The rest is weaselling.

    Don't like the law, fine. Change it. But don't pretend it says something it does not.
    Even retired liberal Justice Stevens has in effect validated the "shall not be infringed" part of the amendment by his New York Times editorial demanding the repeal of the Second Amendment.

    But the demonstrators should seek more effective and more lasting reform. They should demand a repeal of the Second Amendment.

    Concern that a national standing army might pose a threat to the security of the separate states led to the adoption of that amendment, which provides that “a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.” Today that concern is a relic of the 18th century.


    Why any need to repeal it if it only protects the right of the National Guard to be armed, as the ridiculous claim goes?

    The left loves to prattle on about "the courts" and this retired activist judge has just shown exactly why. For decades liberals have controlled the courts and not only the Supreme Court but especially lower courts have virtually gutted the real protections of the Bill of Rights while at the same time discovering "rights" that never existed. The Fourth Amendment has been especially savaged, with "probable cause" and other modern judicial inventions tearing huge chunks out of the right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures.

    Virtually every amendment except the Third has been eviscerated using these BS tactics. When he suggests that the Second Amendment "is a relic of the 18th century" one has to ask; What Amendment ISN'T a relic of the 18th century, as is the entire Constitution?

    Leftists love big government and they will do and say anything to increase its power, a principle diametrically opposed to the very concept on which the United States of America was founded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    When he suggests that the Second Amendment "is a relic of the 18th century" one has to ask; What Amendment ISN'T a relic of the 18th century, as is the entire Constitution?
    This was a lovely observation, Scottl. I can't think of a better retort to all the people screeching "Outmoded ! outdated ! No longer applicable !"

    That applies to the entire work, doesn't it ?

    Leftists love big government and they will do and say anything to increase its power ...
    But rightists want to hand over all the power to wealthy aristocrats and companies, also antithetical to the original principles of the US. Do you have a middle path ? That doesn't seem very popular these days with either group

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I am now 100% convinced that modern technology and materials has made the manufacture of firearms something that can be done not only by small manufacturers but even probably as a DIY venture if people chose to do so.
    I am equally convinced that "modern technology" would be a giant leap BACKWARDS.

    Guide headlamp division, General Motors delivered the "grease gun" for under nine dollars each. Crappy LOOOKING, about as accurate as a pitched handful of gravel. But facing .45 ACP "gravel" is a shit-lousy way to start a long day.

    See also sten.

    If one also had to hunt food animals, Mal-Asia's jungles? Australia's Owen was remarkably effective for small money.

    For "real war". The Soviet Sphagin and its East Bloc and Chinese derivatives.

    All were rifled. Only the Owen was ordinarily used at ranges it actually made a damn. "single shot" use not being overly common.

    Half-decent blacksmith/tinsmith - or a Russian teenaged girl - with nothing more than a post drill and decent hacksaw and files could make any of these.

    Many did.

    Firearms are not the threat the snowflakes THINK they are.

    IED's, arson, biologicals, and chemicals, on the other hand?
    No shortage of evidence that nastiness is far too easy,

    Out law foodstuffs and fuels? Not so easy.

    What WORKS is to keep the PEOPLE from going off their nut in the first damned place.

    There's the HARD part.

    The looter-lie-bore-alls do seem to have a plan.

    Make abortion MANDATORY, is it? More "personalized" than suicide vests makes it "liberal"? Or starve the population to death with taxes and damned-fool "free everything" waste?

    Why are they so foolish as to not realize their useless c**ts will be the first into the stew pot, times get truly hard? Not the last.

    No need of firearms to dine well on "long pig". If no knives? Sticks, rocks, strangler's snares, brute muscle and Mark One teeth will serve as well as they always have.

    Just how TF do you "regulate" any of THOSE, pray tell?

    Supercomputers may know? Or their distributed nerve net - a "network of things" grown sentient?

    Be afraid. Be VERY afraid they should ever get sentient enough to wisely eradicate all of mankind as nothing more than a dangerous skin-disease on a ball of rock and dirt.

    A planet they happen to fancy more highly as a saner and safer place, cleansed of the entire lot of us.

    Mind.. we might yet prove we can DIY that without "high tech". Humans are, after all, easily as prone to "show off" their nasty side as often as their good side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I am equally convinced that "modern technology" would be a giant leap BACKWARDS.

    Guide headlamp division, General Motors delivered the "grease gun" for under nine dollars each. Crappy LOOOKING, about as accurate as a pitched handful of gravel. But facing .45 ACP "gravel" is a shit-lousy way to start a long day.

    See also sten.

    If one also had to hunt food animals, Mal-Asia's jungles? Australia's Owen was remarkably effective for small money.

    For "real war". The Soviet Sphagin and its East Bloc and Chinese derivatives.

    All were rifled. Only the Owen was ordinarily used at ranges it actually made a damn. "single shot" use not being overly common.

    Half-decent blacksmith/tinsmith - or a Russian teenaged girl - with nothing more than a post drill and decent hacksaw and files could make any of these.

    Many did.
    While I agree with you in principle I think many of the younger generation are far more comfortable with newer technology than they are with skilled work with hand tools. And items like the grease gun required elaborate dies and huge stamping presses to be successful.

    Cad files can deliver a proven design to any number of builders, and low cost 3D printers easily create tooling and plastic furniture for those with lesser skill and experience in fabrication. Where a previous generation could easily do hand layout on metal parts, hand carve a suitable stock and even (re)create tools such as the traditional hand rifling rig I think many who are proficient with the newer tech lack much of the traditional craftsmanship.

    That ingenious method of rifling using a 3D printed tool with copper wire and salt water to etch instead of cut the rifling is IMO the final piece of the puzzle that makes the possibility of DIY "stuff" so widespread that the anti-gunners must be in a panic.

    Many on this forum could easily build a firearm using conventional methods but this new Download, Print, Do (DPD) methodology is a radical game changer.

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    Default A sampling of homemade guns from around the world

    I guess gun control is a success in Australia. 10% of firearms seized are homemade.


    Australian Police: 10% of firearms seized are homemade
    Australian Police: 10% of firearms seized are homemade -The Firearm Blog

    Australian police arrest homemade pen gun supplier
    Australian police arrest homemade pen gun supplier -The Firearm Blog

    Police testing a Philip Luty SMG.
    YouTube

    Improvised weapons from places like Brazil and even Japan
    Impro Guns | The International Commission on Global Improvised Arms Proliferation…. | Page 4

    And some more from around the world. Check out the "lock" on that crime gun from Vietnam that was originally a locally produced long gun for hunters.
    Impro Guns | The International Commission on Global Improvised Arms Proliferation…. | Page 3

    And in Brazil police busted an illegal machine gun factory
    Illegal machine gun factory raided, Santa Claus arrested -The Firearm Blog

    "The same ultra crude model of submachine gun has been widely seized by police in Brazil over the last couple of years suggesting that a large number were being produced. These guns usually feature a trigger unit cut out from plastic and a barrel and bolt made from brass bar. Automatic firearms as crude as these do well in illustrating the pipe dream of prohibition."

    (emphasis added)

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    The only reason a well regulated militia was mentioned
    was because of the arms and tactics used at the time of writing.

    smooth bore muskets that were used with men in formation with volleys fired
    remember the old style commands were ready level fire.
    not ready aim fire because you really only know the general direction it was going to hit
    unlike the rifles that were fairly accurate but had a much slower rate of fire.

    now remember the true history of gun control laws in NYC
    wasn't to disarm criminals it was to disarm political opponents

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    While I agree with you in principle I think many of the younger generation are far more comfortable with newer technology than they are with skilled work with hand tools. And items like the grease gun required elaborate dies and huge stamping presses to be successful.
    Fallacy Number ONE. One can build more accurate versions out of common pipe or DOM tubing. They needed dies to be CHEAP, not to be effective.


    Cad files can deliver a proven design to any number of builders, and low cost 3D printers easily create tooling and plastic furniture for those with lesser skill and experience in fabrication. Where a previous generation could easily do hand layout on metal parts, hand carve a suitable stock and even (re)create tools such as the traditional hand rifling rig I think many who are proficient with the newer tech lack much of the traditional craftsmanship.
    Fallacy Number TWO. Crude hand methods are faster and still kill even WHEN crude. High tech cad are slower, are precise, may not work AT ALL if the precision is gotten wrong or the concept is wrong.

    Ex: Billions spent, and the cute and ever-so Picatinny-railed eminently configurable descendents of the Eugene Stoner and AR-wotever have never, and will never match Colonel Kalashnikov's "Avtomat Kalashnikov" and derivatives for basic low/no maintenance reliability, worst possible combination of ignorance, indifference, malnutrition, parasites in the guts, drugs in the head, of sorry combatants and worse field conditions thrown at both.

    "Delta Force" is a minority. The majority combatants doing the looting, raping, and murder in the shitholes of a tired Earth - inner cities included - are a whole 'nuther thing. Wolf packs have better sense and better manners.

    Stoner was into physics and clever arrangements. Not into sane gas operation or bolt locking that JF worked, cleaned or never. It basically didn't work.

    Kalashnikov understood poor soldiers, shitty ammunition, and worse battlefield conditions.


    That ingenious method of rifling using a 3D printed tool with copper wire and salt water to etch instead of cut the rifling is IMO the final piece of the puzzle that makes the possibility of DIY "stuff" so widespread that the anti-gunners must be in a panic.
    They don't pay a bit of attention to those technoidal things. Only the "rambo appearance" for easier media campaign targeting.

    Just because they are insane doesn't make them stupid.

    Even the most deranged of "Anti-gunners" understands a smoothbore shotgun is as deadly as can be. They'll go for those LATER.
    Many on this forum could easily build a firearm using conventional methods but this new Download, Print, Do (DPD) methodology is a radical game changer.
    No it isn't.. The choke point if there is such a thing as a "game changer", is only how much cheap and affordable AMMUNITION can be kept freely available, made DIY, or NOT.

    - The nut-cases are attacking ammuntion and its costs.

    - The nut-cases are attacking RANGE availability so there is no nearby space to learn, train, or practice.

    - The nut-cases are trying to require MORE training and practice than ranges and affordable if even available ammunition can support with the economic means available.

    Not new news the looter-lie-bore-all tribes want the poor beholden to them as serfs, is it?

    Hong Kong's most draconian rule? Seven years in prison. PER EACH round of ammunition. One box of twenty-two "BB caps" is basically a life sentance several times over.

    Irony? OUR law arson is a shoot-on-sight capital crime, closest available citizen - formal peace officer or not - to put an end to it. The risk leverages right off the scale. Cannot be tolerated.

    Theirs it is no longer. So now they pay the price for that bit of foolish liberalization of acts of arson.

    Result? Firebombs by the multiple thousands. This is an improvement to public safety? Just how?


    Back in OUR world?

    Get real. There are already what? Ten proven and fully functional firearms lying about in various safes and hidey-holes for every person old enough to lift one in America? Or is it only 8 or 9? Safe bet most of them have at least 20 if not 50 or a hundred rounds of ammunition for their chambering kept nearby. every bit of it proven to work, not experimental.

    Virginia is in the news off the back of Bloomberg's money and other outsiders buying himself a Legislature and Governator of insane-for-rent if not also insane-in-their-DNA?

    Old Dominion is good at many things.

    Top of the list and why "Old" applies? We are REALLY good taking the money of those who presume to invade into our economy, and their corpses into our cemetaries.

    Bloomberg wants to play our game? Virginia Lawyers will break his bank before ever a rebellious shot is fired in anger. See all those 2d Amendment "Sanctuary" jurisdictions? Didja MISS the point they are predominantly DEMOCRAT, not Republican? We do "civil war" as well as anyone.

    May as well call them "Sucktuary" jurisdictions for the Lawsters waitin' to feed.

    Grant took Richmond? Ah well. Have yah seen "Northern Virginia".. or our shipyards?

    Federal Dollars are still being sucked into Virginia at a staggering rate.

    "Payback is a Moneysuckster."

    Grant had any idea what invading the Old Dominion was going to COST the Union, 1865 onward?

    He'd have invaded the Falkland Islands as far the better deal.

    And just how well did THAT work for them as actually DID it?


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    A primer on how to make your own primers:

    http://aardvarkreloading.com/resourc...imercourse.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    A primer on how to make your own primers:

    http://aardvarkreloading.com/resourc...imercourse.pdf
    C'mon... just go buy a hundred year supply of 'em. Better yet? More primed brass, components, or even complete ammunition than you are likely to live long enough to use. They are all small enough, physically, and they store well.

    Ain't like a fifty or hundred year supply of, water, electricity, gasoline or foodstuffs, is it?

    This shit ain't going to "war in the streets". It's going to go to money wasted in the Courts.

    Shit were ever to actually hit the fan?

    Those in the know could jemmy a door, stroll into the average kitchen or garage, walk out not a lot of minutes later and be a hundred miles down the road when yer entire house was blown to kindling wood and rubble off the back of everyday necessities found already in the home.

    There are ALWAYS going to be nut-cases as decree themselves the right to deny others the right to live.

    They will also always be abysmal failures at it.

    Not because anyone has to be BOTHERED wasting ammunition shooting them.

    Because when they are that STOOPID they were less-capable to deal with ordinary life and more likely to be too busy trying not to starve from birth onward.

    It isn't "politics" that drives looter-lie-bore-alls. Hunger for Other People's Resources greater than they are able to earn, rather.

    Sick f**ks don't need put down like mad dogs.

    No real effort to just let 'em starve themselves off the poor quality nutrition found when their heads spend too much time foraging up their own collective arses 'stead of doing useful work for compensation.

    How stressful is that?

    Nobody has to offer harm to the Nancy Pelosi's of the world. 'Nuther year of HUTA foraging for sustenance up her own GI-tract? She'll poison what's left of her mind, take a fair chunk of Dumb-ass-crap political carnival side-show out of the gene-pool with her.

    What's not to like about that for low-effort efficiency on the defense? Let 'em eat their own bull shiff and slowly starve to death.

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