What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 13
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  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    Agreed, and I can see it's a waste to "Cast my pearls before swine" by pointing out the real cure, beyond quoting John Adams;

    "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

    What he didn't need to say was that NO legal system will do for atheists, as they bear within themselves the seeds of their own destruction . . .
    You might want to understand the Adams quote in context. A longer snippet: " . . . this country will be the most miserable habitation in the world. Because we have no government armed with the power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, and licentiousness would break the strongest cords of our Constitution, as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

    As for Christ being the answer -- fine if it is what has you living a moral life. It works for millions. Appreciate, though, that Adams ended up rejecting the divine trinity and was broadly appreciative of most anyone living a just life -- including frequent skeptic and sometime adversary Jefferson. Adams apparently wants "avarice, ambition, revenge, and licentiousness" to be "bridled" by a moral culture. Starting at the top, we now seem to be living in a greedy, ambitious verging on narcissistic, and vengeful culture. Not gonna end well says Adams.

    Also turns out that strong belief in religion (as in much of the US) actually tends to correlate with higher crime rates while lower levels of belief (say in Nordic nations, Japan, maybe China) correlates with lower rates. Really can't, at least factually, blame your damned atheists for our higher rates of violence and mass murder: Misinformation and Facts about Secularism and Religion | Psychology Today

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Also turns out that strong belief in religion (as in much of the US) actually tends to correlate with higher crime rates while lower levels of belief (say in Nordic nations, Japan, maybe China) correlates with lower rates. Really can't, at least factually, blame your damned atheists for our higher rates of mass murder: Misinformation and Facts about Secularism and Religion | Psychology Today
    Observation from history - original or never - is that peace and cooperation seem to depend on negotiations between and among:

    - lapsed members of <religion A>
    - dealing with lapsed members of <religion B>

    - or lapsed members of <philosophy C>
    - dealing with lapsed members of < political movement D >

    Yes, one must have standards, values, some reliable and predictable form of moral compass.

    But no, it isn't the route to peace to believe yours is the only valid one and all others are going to burn in Hell for lack of embracing it, and by yesterday, not next week

    .. helped down the road, of course, by explosives because you, not they, have been sold such a fantastic bill of goods to actually be looking forward to the trip.

    Humans. Some have likened us to no more than a transient skin disease on this ball of dirt. That'll humble our arrogant collective arse.

    Best we take a tad more care, lest we prove that theory correct, too, yah?

    Last edited by thermite; 08-10-2019 at 03:23 AM.

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  4. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    I read #142, and had to step away from the computer before I put my fist through the screen...

    I want nothing to do with such a person.
    Maybe edit this, captain .... currently, post #142 is not controversial in any way ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Maybe edit this . . . post #142 is not controversial in any way ....
    Seems the post numbering has changed? My recollection is that Milland was referring to a conspiracy theory, not the current post #142.

    Personally, I'm not a fan of editing or deleting what people say, except in the most extreme cases. Free speech, short of yelling fire and all. If someone's on the fringe, let the record show it. If a thread then gets out of hand, close it and say why. The diversity of opinion here (minus one or two apparently new trolls) reflects our reality, sad or glad as it might make some.

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  7. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    Just as a side note, I am disappointed that the moderators allow such rude behavior and profane language.

    I am the moderator and I run this forum for adults who can deal with language and/or ideas that may offend them. If you can't deal with something posted here, go some place where you find what you want to hear.

    I thank you for clarifying your position, though I don't necessarily share your view.
    Needless vulgarity is not, in my opinion, adult in nature but more like a frustrated adolescent.
    It adds nothing of value to the discussion.
    I trust you can deal with an idea that may offend you.

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  9. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    The diversity of opinion here (minus one or two apparently new trolls) reflects our reality, sad or glad as it might make some.
    It has done even more positive things.

    Revealed that many among us may be far apart in "published" posturing, but still share an appreciation of a way of life yet worth preserving anyway.

    Mind.. I reserve the position that some of you leftist looters are only stalling for time before yah turn the rest of us into Soylent Green to replace all them cows and steers banned.....

    .. but I'll take what I can get.

    Could prolly live forever and still die three weeks before you accomplish that anyway, usual rate of "progress" as prevails amongst "progressives" as it has been, historically...

    This enduring Federal Republic WAS designed to put certain impediments in the path even of voluntary national economic suicide, after all. Mind.. while that part leaks a bit, it also sends out advance warnings.

    Most useful if ever- body with even twelve cents or better left in their over-hauls spots them looter-critters a-coming and hides his treasure...


  10. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Rob, This the same David Steele (your source on all this false flag stuff) who told Alex Jones' audience we have a child slave colony on Mars?
    Pete, I can not dissagree with what he (Steele) says about fbi creating/instigating the "terrorists".
    In fact we just had a thread on exactly that and some posted their direct first hand experience of this by the government.
    Here is a link in case you missed it:
    You ever got the feeling you've been baited by atf?
    I dont know about his thoughts on mars, or care really, but his fbi info sure seems to line up with a lot of other sources that draw similar conclusions about them (fbi).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    ...sure seems to line up with a lot of other sources that draw similar conclusions about them (fbi).
    LOL! You don't know the background on Fumble Bumble Incompetent?

    John Edgar Hoover blackmailing one politician and President after another so as to delay being outed over wearing his mamma's dresses and such? Nobody REALLY gave a damn about that part.

    It was his trying to live up to the title of a book he wrote about the Soviets.. then surpassed, his own self, that set the rot into the very core of the organization.

  12. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    In 1967, the CIA Created the Label "Conspiracy Theorists" ... to Attack Anyone Who Challenges the "Official" Narrative (of the JFK shooting.)
    See why some people think the problem is orchestrated to produce a specific out come.

    90 Miles From Tyranny : Parents Catch FBI in Plot to Force Mentally Ill Son to Be a Right Wing Terrorist
    That story you linked to sounds all too familiar. Several of the "Middle Eastern terrorist plots" supposedly stopped by the FBI were mentally deficient patsies suckered into conversations that eventually resulted in lengthy prison terms.

    I have always felt that the hottest fires of hell were reserved for those who abuse or take advantage of the mentally handicapped.

    Prisons are enough of a horror for young people and to send an otherwise innocent mentally handicapped person into such horrors through deceit and treachery is a crime against humanity.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    Here’s my .05% libtard take on it:

    Why is gun culture now so redneckerized? (Literally: camo coated guns instead of Parkerized black). . Just teasin’ A bit!!!

    I always thought of firearms as the big leagues intelligence wise. They are machined beauties, artistic in form and function. I was raised being taught to respect the seriousness of such tools as my firearms.

    Nowadays it feels like in-my-face bad assery with “no compromise” confrontational attitude. And we market them fully toward/with this attitude.

    It’s gotten really weird around here. Firearms are becoming personal identity, with “I’m a male” or “I’m human” coming in distant 2nd place.

    The grandfathers with hundreds of amazing firearms were NOT wearing them on their shoulders (or rear window decals) as I was a kid. And that’s not many years ago!

    It's part of the culture of the younger generation. Just as they are more likely to have personalized everything from cell phone cases to skateboards, bicycles and even autos they like a bit of flair in their firearms and seek something "different".

    This is really not new. I remember back in the 60s and 70s customized hunting rifles with exotic wood forend tips, whiteline and other spacers, fancy inlays, engraving, gold plated triggers and so on. Nowadays the firearms manufacturers and aftermarket are responding to the demand, thus such oddities as a pistol in "Chevy Belair blue".

  13. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Observation from history - original or never - is that peace and cooperation seem to depend on negotiations between and among:

    - lapsed members of <religion A>
    - dealing with lapsed members of <religion B>

    - or lapsed members of <philosophy C>
    - dealing with lapsed members of < political movement D >

    Yes, one must have standards, values, some reliable and predictable form of moral compass.

    But no, it isn't the route to peace to believe yours is the only valid one and all others are going to burn in Hell for lack of embracing it, and by yesterday, not next week

    .. helped down the road, of course, by explosives because you, not they, have been sold such a fantastic bill of goods to actually be looking forward to the trip.

    Humans. Some have likened us to no more than a transient skin disease on this ball of dirt. That'll humble our arrogant collective arse.

    Best we take a tad more care, lest we prove that theory correct, too, yah?

    How come sometimes you are the most reasonable human on these threads? Do you show your true colors at times?

    dee
    ;-D

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    “The question is- what can we do as individuals or a group to bring the firearms world around to a more rational state? ”

    I would temper that question with ‘how do we bring the public discussion to a more rational state.’

    I believe that discussion would start with a accurate description of the negative and positive aspects of firearms being present in the society.
    Any censure should be made in careful balance of diminishing harm caused by firearms with curtailing rights to the least degree possible.

    Roughly it appears that there are three categories of social harm:

    1- Deaths by suicide
    2- Criminal acts
    3- Radical acts

    I believe any rational person can see that each area may have some action left undone which the society might take to reduce gun violence.

    -Government funding for suicide outreach, perhaps.
    -Stricter penalties for sources of distribution which enable firearms to reach the street, maybe.
    -Censure of some forms of speech which are causing the radicalization of individuals?

    Action might best be described as breaking systems which heighten illicit use.
    Understanding those systems and rational discussion of how to change them is a required first step.

    From when a firearm is manufactured to the point it causes harm should be viewed as a accident investigation.
    How do we most effectively break that series of events which permit that result.

  16. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    . . . Mind.. I reserve the position that some of you leftist looters are only stalling for time before yah turn the rest of us into Soylent Green to replace all them cows and steers banned.....

    Pretty sure that shouldn't be a worry, Bill. Judging by the vegan, health-alarmed lefties I know, if there's ever a recipe for Soylent Green, they'd surely ban voluble and crusty old dudes from the ingredients list. Even in parts per million :-)
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    How come sometimes you are the most reasonable human on these threads? Do you show your true colors at times?

    dee
    ;-D
    Now where would be the fun in THAT?


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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Pretty sure that shouldn't be a worry, Bill. Judging by the vegan, health-alarmed lefties I know, if there's ever a recipe for Soylent Green, they'd surely ban voluble and crusty old dudes from the ingredients list. Even in parts per million :-)
    .
    Not funny, the "recycling" bit of cannibalism-once-removed, but funny nonetheless.

    Quit giving blood about fifty-years ago. Elmo Zumwalt III and I had compared notes during the project he had ramrodded to get a bit of compensation for vets affected by Agent Orange. The Dioxin contaminant in it, actually.

    Best we could determine, I'd been exposed to more of it than he had.

    Many of the known effects have "been there" for years confirming that. Body seems to just keep finding ways around them, so... it's all in the Levi's one supposes.

    Genes, that is.

    One G'parent who made only 96 said it was the family curse. To live longer than other folks.. but have more things wrong with us the whole time! Beats the alternative, even so.

    Whomever said yah' have to play the hand of cards life deals yah didn't say it, but sometimes one is compelled to cheat!


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    What "high caliber" means..
    A 22 mag is a dangerous round at close range...as is a 410 buckshot or slug...and a sharpened screw driver?..do we need to ban grinding wheel so not having sharpened screw drivers....and water pipes, what about them?

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    "I believe that discussion would start with a accurate description of the negative and positive aspects of firearms being present in the society."

    Interesting points Trboatworks.
    My biggest beef is that positive aspects i.e. self defense are rarely discussed or even acknowledged.
    Unfortunately Incidents of successful self defense rarely get past local news outlets.

    I asked FOX news if they could put some of their vast resources toward collecting data on self defense actions nation wide and display the data for all to see on a daily basis. Heck the data might even discourage loons from threatening Americans.
    We have to start somewhere. Regards, John

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    While I agree with some of your points I can't escape the feeling that your comments re guns are coming from an outsider. As such, you may not realize the enormous amount of guns that are sold and never misused and the enormous amount of gun owners who never harm anyone.

    I agree that outreach is the best approach to reduce suicides and perhaps well-intentioned outreach efforts might also persuade some troubled youth not to emulate these mass shooters.

    With crime the number one way to reduce the number of illegal guns in the hands of young thugs is to vigorously investigate and prosecute those involved in obtaining these weapons. Unfortunately that seldom happens. Recently Boston's Superintendent of police was on TV talking about the enormous number of guns confiscated in a year. He stated that the average armed criminal was undeterred by sentences of one year to eighteen months for illegal possession. Then he mentioned seeking "federal help". I listened eagerly, thinking he was going to request their help in tracing guns, raising defaced serial numbers, and prosecuting offenders. Instead, he placed the blame on other states and demanded federal laws as strict as those in Massachusetts. I was totally disgusted with his cop out and lies. The reason so many guns are trafficked into Mass. is because people are so seldom prosecuted for it, despite existing laws that provide up to 10 years in prison.

    I 100% disagree with the suggestion to solve ANY of these problems by censoring speech. Who is to play God and decide what's allowable to say? There's plenty of speech on all sides that might incite some individuals and once we start down the road of tailoring society to the sensitivities of the misfits among us there would be no end. After all our concessions a few of the SOBS would probably massacre us anyway.

    We don't need more gun laws. We need more enforcement of the existing laws they promised would make us safer. That they lied is so obvious now. The laws that they claimed would protect us were always aimed at us rather than criminals, crazies and terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    “The question is- what can we do as individuals or a group to bring the firearms world around to a more rational state? ”

    I would temper that question with ‘how do we bring the public discussion to a more rational state.’

    I believe that discussion would start with a accurate description of the negative and positive aspects of firearms being present in the society.
    Any censure should be made in careful balance of diminishing harm caused by firearms with curtailing rights to the least degree possible.

    Roughly it appears that there are three categories of social harm:

    1- Deaths by suicide
    2- Criminal acts
    3- Radical acts

    I believe any rational person can see that each area may have some action left undone which the society might take to reduce gun violence.

    -Government funding for suicide outreach, perhaps.
    -Stricter penalties for sources of distribution which enable firearms to reach the street, maybe.
    -Censure of some forms of speech which are causing the radicalization of individuals?

    Action might best be described as breaking systems which heighten illicit use.
    Understanding those systems and rational discussion of how to change them is a required first step.

    From when a firearm is manufactured to the point it causes harm should be viewed as a accident investigation.
    How do we most effectively break that series of events which permit that result.

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  24. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by john worden View Post
    "I believe that discussion would start with a accurate description of the negative and positive aspects of firearms being present in the society."

    Interesting points Trboatworks.
    My biggest beef is that positive aspects i.e. self defense are rarely discussed or even acknowledged.
    Unfortunately Incidents of successful self defense rarely get past local news outlets.

    I asked FOX news if they could put some of their vast resources toward collecting data on self defense actions nation wide and display the data for all to see on a daily basis. Heck the data might even discourage loons from threatening Americans.
    We have to start somewhere. Regards, John
    The statistics are/were "out there". I yanked all "life member" support and donations aimed at the NRA over thirty years ago when they - specifically Wayne La<dehydrated-Frenchman> - started going too hard to the dick-swinging side of 2A support and not enough about common-sense.

    Even so.. their dead-tree magazine had for years and years carried a column, "The Armed Citizen", IIRC, that tallied-up that month's usually small, local, newspapers articles where a crime had been prevented an/or a perp apprehended by ordinary folk with some sort of a firearm to-hand.

    Right rare for a shot needed firing, even as a warning. Or ven jsut a reading:

    https://www.amazon.com/Signs-Gun-Lif...T7GGR0EQ5EWG1M

    Mind.. that was before Hollywood - and/or drugs - had convinced legions of pure fools no one with a firearm could actually HIT the broad side of a barn even from a position inside of it, or that anything less than a thousand rounds of 9 mm, or more than one 12-bore high-brass #1 or #00 buck would do anything more annoying than the loud noise of a clean miss at silly-close range.

    Darwinism as it is, some of the stupider ones did rather abruptly depart the gene-pool now and again.

    Guess sometimes s**t UNhappens, after all, but Oy! .. the paperwork!


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    Scott,

    A outsider to what?

    “I can't escape the feeling that your comments re guns are coming from an outsider.”

    Speech, association.
    Two of our most important liberties.
    I don’t know how I respond to those principles in their use to foment attacks.

    I’ll grant you the point though.
    ANY restrictions in these two areas are remarkably dangerous to a free society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Roughly it appears that there are three categories of social harm:

    1- Deaths by suicide
    2- Criminal acts
    3- Radical acts

    I believe any rational person can see that each area may have some action left undone which the society might take to reduce gun violence.
    I dont think that any of these;
    1- Deaths by suicide
    2- Criminal acts
    3- Radical acts
    Would be severly slowed down if there were NO guns.

    1- Many, many ways to kill yourself, if you have decided on that path a lack of gun will not be an issue.

    2- As we now know that in London guns have pretty much been removed from the criminal element and gov is now on to banning knives. Selling, buying and carrying knives - GOV.UK

    3- Radicals can always find ways to kill more people without guns so really why bother with them if the really want to kill large numbers. Nice truck attack jumps to mind?

    All 3 of these groups surly do use firearms, likely because of it's convenience, not necessity.

    Thermite and others have mentioned "the armed citizen" from the nra rag. This is a good thing to report on and if the national media was to bring these type of "heros" to the limelight, maybe some form of deterrent would be had. The bad guys name is never mentioned (as brought up earlier in thread) but going a bit farther the people who put him away are paraded as heros in the media (if they wish).
    Bad guys would get nothing to be remembered for by doing evils bidding so maybe the "glory" would not be there for them anymore, some of them anyway.

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