What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 14
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  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Scott,

    A outsider to what?

    “I can't escape the feeling that your comments re guns are coming from an outsider.”

    Speech, association.
    Two of our most important liberties.
    I don’t know how I respond to those principles in their use to foment attacks.
    By an outsider I mean someone not heavily involved with the shooting sports.

    Many well meaning people, including some gun owners, talk casually about proposals that would have a massive adverse affect on millions of peaceful, law abiding individuals. I refer to those who own and use AR-15s and other "military styled" firearms that gun control advocates have mislabeled as assault weapons.

    There are no exact figures but based on sales numbers over many years there are certainly tens of millions of such firearms in private hands yet random mass shootings (as opposed to crime related shootings) are relatively rare.

    And that is my major point. Every time the media does this saturation coverage it not only makes the average person think this is some kind of epidemic that requires drastic action but also inspires copycats as we have just seen. According to the FBI the period of greatest risk for copycat events is about thirteen days.

    First we have the Garlic Festival shooting and the perp gets his 15 minutes of fame magnified to the nth degree.

    Then another one, most likely a copycat, occurs at a Walmart in Texas.

    Unlike the Garlic Festival this coverage goes on forever and surprise, surprise - another copycat attacks a bar in Ohio.

    Then we have a bizarre incident at another Walmart where a guy who looks like he is dressed for another one of these massacres walks around calmly and then surrenders without firing a shot.

    Do you really think we would even be having this conversation if not for the intensive media coverage? Would these even happen as frequently if they acknowledged their own role in inspiring these kids and toned down the coverage?

    I've been involved in this anti gun/pro gun struggle for decades now and I'm tired of seeing good people punished for the acts of bad people. I have better things to do with my time but letting fallacies go unanswered would only make it appear that EVERYONE in America wants more gun laws and that is far from the case.

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  3. #262
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    Following up on the theme that it's worthless to pass new laws when the old ones aren't enforced, here's a link to one of the "Mass. Court Fails" pages at the Gun Owner's Action League, our most prominent gun rights advocacy group here in Massachusetts whose "tough gun laws" are often held up as a model for other states and even the federal government. All of these are documented cases, not some fantasy.

    #MACourtFails - September 2018 - GOAL.ORG

    Given that this is how a state with "toughest in the nation" gun laws treats armed criminals, I can't believe the situation would be any different if laws similar to ours were adopted elsewhere.

    Edit: Here's the top level page for Mass. Court Fails.

    MA Court Fails Archives - GOAL.ORG

  4. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    By an outsider I mean someone not heavily involved with the shooting sports.
    TR... many among us ...might surprise you to the contrary... and that is not unusual, because... we know TOO MUCH ....rather than too little.
    own and use AR-15s and other "military styled" firearms that gun control advocates have mislabeled as assault weapons.
    That "mislabel" nonsense is a waste of your time and EVERYBODY'S attention. Diverts from issues as might be more readily addressed.

    The "red herring" just happens to be swimming the exact opposite direction you think it "should" be.

    There ain't NO Fine Way to re-position or re-label either of what Colonel Kalashnikov nor Eugene Stoner conceived specifically AS an "assault rifle" that then went multiple scores of years into proven global service AS "assault rifles".

    NO way.

    Painted purple, camo, p**y-pink, or parkerized plain, they are wot they "AR" (gee.. "AR"? wonder what THAT stands for?).

    Which leads to a problem: Belief in "glorification" of the specific clan and tribe of a firearm.

    Which leads to another problem: Belief that said perceived "glory" is transferable.

    That possession of what the "whole-damned-WORLD-knows-is-a-legend".. an AK or AR ..bestows mythical power or greater "value" on the possessor.

    Thank heavens a Barrett .50 is gawdawfully more costly, yah?

    No matter how well-behaved and well-meaning the majority of the owners?

    Too many pop-eyed and drooling wannbee's have been encouraged and catered to as to chasing and glorifying AK, SKS, AR by this late date. Not to commit evil with. Just to HAVE.

    Bad psychology, and critical mass OF it - even among the proven and would-be "good guys".

    I cannot defend that genre. Far too much nasty baggage has become attached to it, and indelibly so.

    The risk of losing choices of far more appropriate, useful - and best of all - far less attractive to nutcases - alternatives in their myriad variety has become too high ....if ever the "AR" tribe were even worth it at all.

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  6. #264
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    The AR prefix originally stood for the company who made it, Armalite.

    Murderers use all sorts of objects. Despite all the emotions the reality is violent predators need to be punished. A speedy death sentence carried out or the rest of their natural life in a cell. Public hangings of serial rapists, child molesters, and murderers would permanently end their opportunity to ever hurt or kill another person. And it would serve as a grim deterrent to anyone who would ever consider it.

    Why do we have so much violence in movies and video games now a days? The lack of morals and the glorified violence from Hollywood surely has an effect on young minds.

  7. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    I cannot defend that genre. Far too much nasty baggage has become attached to it, and indelibly so.

    The risk of losing choices of far more appropriate, useful - and best of all - far less attractive to nutcases - alternatives in their myriad variety has become too high ....if ever the "AR" tribe were even worth it at all.
    While I fully understand your point of view, one which is shared by many traditionalist gun owners, I suspect it has about as much chance of long term success as throwing a piece of meat to a wolf in hope he wont be back for yer carcass.

    I've actually met some of the more aggressive gun control types long before they found a national stage. In earlier days before they realized how much opposition they faced they were far more open about their long term goals which were the almost total abolition of private firearms ownership. I say almost because there would be a few exceptions, severely limited in what they could own and as tightly controlled as machine guns are today.

    The strategy as I understand it is ban "assault weapons" first, then handguns, and then chip away at the rest. A few "sniper" incidents involving scoped bolt actions and those are gone, a few misdeeds using lever action rifles and those are gone, etc., etc,. ad infinitum.

    There is nothing that can put a projectile downrange that can't be effectively demonized in turn by our Assault Media and every victory will only whet their appetite for more.

    So we agree to disagree. You can offer to surrender entire classes of firearms but I'll be on the other side fighting to educate people and fight to not only keep what we've got but also to regain lost ground. We've already proved the latter in the People's Republic of Massachusetts where we've slowly chipped away at some of the impositions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    While I fully understand your point of view, one which is shared by many traditionalist gun owners, I suspect it has about as much chance of long term success as throwing a piece of meat to a wolf in hope he wont be back for yer carcass.
    Sorry. doesn't fly. Real threats, looters or other, don't get "appeased". They get put-down.

    Not so much a "traditionalist "GUN OWNER" any more than I am a "traditionalist open-end wrench owner". What I AM is simply a traditionalist CITIZEN. And veteran. We do not RETRACT the oath we took on leaving active duty, after all. The responsibility is for "whole life", armed or not and long or short.

    The attitude you are flogging has come to fall into much the same class of intransigence as the guy in a nimble AWD Subaru on an icy highway in a situation where he has LEGAL right-of-way over a marginally controllable twin-screw Peterbilt hauling tens of tons of steel plate. Wherein he keeps insisting on defending his "rights" when he could so easily apply his superior agility to avoid a tragic crash as would turn his own modest mount - and himself - into beer-can and mashed froggie imitators.

    This shit happens. We have all seen the pattern, even when disaster IS avoided. Ask any over-the-road trucker if even his first WEEK, if not HOUR, at the wheel missed a few examples of it.

    Head games. One or more players running on empty at that.

    In a similar manner, defending AR's doesn't HELP preserve rights. It HINDERS.

    If you must have an "AR", or a even a "battle rifle" (those as are far more deadly)?

    Prepare for Swiss-style regulation of them - sealed and AUDITED ammo tins - when they still HAD it in the home at all, and PERIODIC NATIONAL SERVICE IN UNIFORM (forgotten that part, have yah?)... then hope that the more utilitarian of ordinary and useful arms are still exempted.

    Make more sense to me, we just "DEWAT" the silly toys with a few strategic hits off a TiG welder and let the grown-ups get back to their ordinary lives. Y'all can still play and posture ... just more quietly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    1) ... Anyone who wanted to shoot Nixon can't be all bad. ...
    Not funny and entirely inappropriate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Fumble Bumble Incompetent?
    Made me laugh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Made me laugh
    Hoover in drag surely didn't. I mean.. even in a double-breasted suit instead of a dress, at 5' 7", and grown toadlike as he aged, Hoover wasn't really EVER as handsome as DeCaprio played him in the movie... Not that I'd want to trade places with HIM, either, come to think of it...



    People who fantasize about being someone else? Pragmatist rejects the very concept.

    How d'you establish control over basic bodily functions? Just think about how messy it would be to negotiate a new Union Contract to keep a strange arsehole you'd never worked with before from going on strike or off to a new job whilst some hired-in scab craps the bed or takes a dump on an expensively upholstered chair at a formal dinner with the in-laws?

    Petty little details. God must have loved them, 'coz she sure made a lot of them...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Hoover in drag surely didn't. I mean.. he wasn't really EVER as handsome as DeCaprio played him in the movie... Not that I'd want to trade places with HIM, either, come t think of it...

    OH NO, that makes me want to puke

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    In addition to reading "The American Rifleman" the other NRA magazine "Americas 1st Freedom" which is available to members at $10.00 a year is dedicated exclusively to keeping tabs on the confiscation crowd. Well worth the money.

    Members of the NRA will be crucified in this election cycle. E. Warren is calling for an investigation into the NRA
    Others are calling for a stake to be driven into the heart of the NRA. Fair warning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john worden View Post
    In addition to reading "The American Rifleman" the other NRA magazine "Americas 1st Freedom" which is available to members at $10.00 a year is dedicated exclusively to keeping tabs on the confiscation crowd. Well worth the money.

    Members of the NRA will be crucified in this election cycle. E. Warren is calling for an investigation into the NRA
    Others are calling for a stake to be driven into the heart of the NRA. Fair warning.
    Wayne La<dehydrated Frenchman> seems to have attracted a fair ration of criticism.

    Housecleaning long overdue, and NOT (yet) being done as well as is needed.

    No fear. "we, the people" are what mattered. And still do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Wayne La<dehydrated Frenchman> seems to have attracted a fair ration of criticism.

    Housecleaning long overdue, and NOT (yet) being done as well as is needed.

    No fear. "we, the people" are what mattered. And still do.
    What is your complaint against Wayne?

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    I struggle with him because he adds to the dumbing down of us, owners and lovers of firearms. He follows the Cincinnati Rebellion, which I humbly think ruined the face of the NRA. “Gun grab” is the oldest tin-hatter in my memory.

    Guys, gun ownership and creation could be respected, not cheapened!

    Loud mouths don’t earn this respect.

    When I take the kids in our local congregation to see a machinist’s firearm creations, they experience that electrifying spiritual tug of intelligence gained. And I preach to them the amazing nature, value and importance of what this gentleman created. I tell them this is an entire fascinating world; machining, welding, designing, & repairing a firearm (among others).

    This “electrifying spiritual tug” (yes, I think that sounds weird myself ) in my humble opinion is nowhere to be found when the kids are plastered with tattered flag stickers, “come and take ‘em”, and all of that nationalist angst/fear that hasn’t been fully forced down their throats yet.

    Guns = fascinating, amazing, genius, marvels...

    How come now, guns = bad assedness, no compromise, me first, ‘murican pride, religion, emotion, every conceivable perversion of the US flag (holy cow, I don’t even think Nazi nationalism went this cheap, and their flag, unlike ours, was NOT sacred)!!!

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    This has been a good thread overall. It is terrible any shooting that happens and especially in El Paso because of the shooter targeting Hispanics. That part is shocking to me and also repulsive.

    I do think the ongoing problem is rooted in the breakdown of families where Fathers are absent as a influence to their own sons.

    Since there is a motivation based upon race in the shooting I try to see that a a problem today and to be reasonable and understanding toward those victims who have families who love them. I feel it is better to separate from the firestorm of all the anger over the racial stands which are common today.

    I am tired of all the shootings regardless anyway. It is cruel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post

    I do think the ongoing problem is rooted in the breakdown of families where Fathers are absent as a influence to their own sons.
    Some 40 years ago, in a discussion with the owner of a book store next to the shop, I said "I don't think there is an outside force that can bring this country down." (I should have said short of nukes) The worst problem that may do it from the inside is the single parent family. In a proper one even the boys see mom sewing and cooking and the girls sometimes hang around when pop is working on the car. Even a good single parent only gives one side and they are so often scratching for a living that they can't do that.

    The other issue is that one of the few good aspects (and there aren't many) of segregation is that the responsible people have to stay in the segregated area so if they want to live in decent surroundings, they have to keep up the one they are in. Housing has opened up, as it should have a long time ago, and those people move to better areas, which I can't hold against them. The problem is with the ones they leave behind without a stabilizing influence.

    Bill

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    The membership renewal notice to our local Sportsman's club came today in an e-mail.

    Included in the reminder was a brief listing of many of the upcoming activities. We have it all, Archery, pistol shoots ,clays, rifle range to 100yards. Black powder every Saturday.
    Even a fishing derby or two. Hunter safety courses, youth oriented .22 shoots. Military shoots and bar-b-que. Just a smattering over 140 members, We do well.

    Best spent "membership" fee I can imagine.

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    I wrote a longer post but I really don't want to get involved in this debate. I will add this though, since I already wrote it:

    As a pawn shop owner and FFL that sells used guns, I see gun owners that have no business owning guns. Gun owners with well below average intelligence and/or a bit mentally unstable.

    I'm all for gun ownership. I own several, mostly older hand guns. One of the perks of being a pawn shop owner. But it needs to be harder to get a gun. A lot harder. If this threatens your ability to be a gun owner then you probably shouldn't be one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john worden View Post
    What is your complaint against Wayne?
    If you have to ask, ether you've not been paying attention ... or you would not understand the answer.

    Let's just say "wrong person for the job. And from earliest days." and that, in MY view, the very term "gun rights" should not exist, nor have ever been heard.

    GUNS have no rights.

    That is hype, foolish hype, and misplaced hype. Inflammatory and indefensible.

    Embracing it telegraphs a position of voluntary serfdom - subordination of the value of SELF to domination of the value of GUN.. and those who provide them.

    Citizens have the rights. Means of defense but one among many.

    The citizen's right TO HAVE ACCESS TO firearms is what is superior. Not the gun's right to possess citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptsmith View Post
    I wrote a longer post but I really don't want to get involved in this debate. I will add this though, since I already wrote it:

    As a pawn shop owner and FFL that sells used guns, I see gun owners that have no business owning guns. Gun owners with well below average intelligence and/or a bit mentally unstable.
    "well below average intelligence" is actually not a problem, so long as stability, morality, sense of personal responsibility - the understanding of right, wrong, and the value of the lives of others as well as self is "there". Very often it IS there.

    You would, of course, by the nature of the business, be exposed to more of the worst examples, not the best among those, nor even the average.

    "Mentally unstable" need not be an overall trait as might lead to mass attacks. it can be as simple as even very rare - but very extreme - bursts of temper. This applies in many domestic-violence tragedies - low victim count, but every bit as dead.

    I'm all for gun ownership. I own several, mostly older hand guns. One of the perks of being a pawn shop owner. But it needs to be harder to get a gun. A lot harder. If this threatens your ability to be a gun owner then you probably shouldn't be one.
    Spot on.


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