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    Quote Originally Posted by wp6529 View Post

    You will note that the rise of the "angry young white male" in the US correlates quite well with the decline in shop classes and other practical non-college career education in public schools. The sad fact is that for a number of decades now kids have been literally told that they are worthless if they don't go to college and into some trendy high end job. The simple fact is that not everyone is suited for such a path and a great many kids would be very happy and far better served following a path in the "dirty trades". This attack on any sort of manual labor in the schools also had directly resulted in a lack of respect for those professions from the good little sheeple the schools have been churning out.
    You really need to read "All God's Children" tracing the life of the person considered the most violent prisoner in the New York penal system. He never met his father and his mother hated him for being in the way. He was in and out of government facilities for his entire childhood. There were two times he might have had a chance. When he was young, I think 9 or 10, he was in one where a couple of women gave him some affection and he responded. Then for some reason he was moved to another facility. Later, he was in another one where he was so disruptive in class that they had to remove him. The maintenance supervisor ask to have him assigned to his department. They issued him coveralls with his name and a hard hat. For the remainder of his stay, he worked with the other people and seemed to be happy. The law said that inmates could only be kept there for two years. As his time ran down, they tried to get an extension for another two. When it came up for a hearing, some clerk had failed to put it on the docket and the judge was unable to hear the case, so he was back to the previous place and became violent again. Eventually he killed a couple of people and at the end of the book, he sits in a cell specially designed for him 23 hours a day. For one hour he is allowed to wander around the prison yard under heavy guard. He requested permission to play board games with his guards and was refused.

    Bill

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    Once you realize that way too many of these acts of terror and violence have an official story that contradicts the witnesses and evidence, you understand that shop classes and new gun laws are not going to fix the real problem.
    I believe that the biggest hurdle is a mindset that does not want to accept the truth.
    El Paso Mass Shooting Witnesses Conflict with Official Story
    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Once you realize that way too many of these acts of terror and violence have an official story that contradicts the witnesses and evidence, you understand that shop classes and new gun laws are not going to fix the real problem.
    I believe that the biggest hurdle is a mindset that does not want to accept the truth.
    El Paso Mass Shooting Witnesses Conflict with Official Story
    YouTube
    So what do you say is the real problem? The subtitles in the video are so out of focus that they are almost impossible to read. I don't think anyone thinks shop classes will end the problem. They might make a reduction in candidates for such actions. The lady thinks there were more than one shooter, meaning what?

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    The lady thinks there were more than one shooter, meaning what?

    Bill
    It means that what you are being told by the mass media may not be entirely true.
    This is a common theme in history. Governments feed news to the media and tell them whatever is necessary to get the proper reaction from the public.
    It may be easier for some people to accept if we simply look at the industry of making war. Remember the Maine, Day of Infamy, Gulf of Tonkin, Weapons of mass destruction, and 9/11 have all been recognized by serious historians as artificial constructs.
    And, many believe, so are current acts of terrorism.
    If you are trying to fix a problem that does not exist, you may fail to fix the one that is of real concern.
    That is the red herring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    So what do you say is the real problem? The subtitles in the video are so out of focus that they are almost impossible to read. I don't think anyone thinks shop classes will end the problem. They might make a reduction in candidates for such actions. The lady thinks there were more than one shooter, meaning what?

    Bill
    What that means if there really were two and it's not just a mistake due to the confusion is that once again this is being spun into something other than what really happened. All of these are portrayed as "lone wolf angry white male" and the alleged shooter is always portrayed as "right wing" or "white supremacist".

    The Ohio shooting largely disappeared from the news cycle after it was discovered the alleged perpetrator was a radical leftist and the school shooting attributed to two LGBT types also faded quickly after details were known.

    The reason two or more shooters is bad for the narrative is that the idea of a single shooter makes the "object we must ban" appear more impressive and dangerous than it would otherwise. While the El Paso incident may well have been the work of a single perp in several other cases multiple witnesses described more than one shooter yet the official story is ALWAYS that of a lone wolf.

    Another thing to think of: What WASN'T on the news during the time these incidents were receiving saturation coverage?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    It means that what you are being told by the mass media may not be entirely true.
    This is a common theme in history. Governments feed news to the media and tell them whatever is necessary to get the proper reaction from the public.
    It may be easier for some people to accept if we simply look at the industry of making war. Remember the Maine, Day of Infamy, Gulf of Tonkin, Weapons of mass destruction, and 9/11 have all been recognized by serious historians as artificial constructs.
    And, many believe, so are current acts of terrorism.
    If you are trying to fix a problem that does not exist, you may fail to fix the one that is of real concern.
    That is the red herring.
    The Maine blew up from the inside, the Gulf of Tonkin was an outright lie, nuclear weapons of mass destruction did not exist, nerve gas did, but what was faked about Pearl Harbor and 9/11? President Roosevelt certainly knew something was coming but it is doubtful that he knew exactly what until that morning. Did someone fake the events of 9/11? The second crash was live on TV with countless people on the ground watching.

    There is no question that the government edits the news but some things happen in front of multiple witnesses. Any police officer will tell you that no evidence carries more weight in court and is less reliable than eyewitness accounts. People reverse color combinations and "see" things that were never there. One clown I was plagued with for years could not tell a story straight. For those of you who have read "Of Mice and "Men", he was my Lenny. I always wondered if he realized how much he was distorting an event to make a good story or if he really believed his account. He's dead now, so it really doesn't matter, but people make things up.

    Bill

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    In my most humble, wimpy, nerd-filled and religious-zealotry form of communication, I beg you guys out there to toss the tin hat mentality in the garbage. It can wreck you lives, and I speak from personal experience.

    Satan wins when we start on that dangerous, addictive path of conspiracy theory. If only to make you miserable, or to get you addicted to the rush that alternative news gives. ‘Member when Peter said the people of Athens were preoccupied with gabbing about “some new thing”? I kinda feel that it fits conspiracy theory quite well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The Ohio shooting largely disappeared from the news cycle after it was discovered the alleged perpetrator was a radical leftist and the school shooting attributed to two LGBT types also faded quickly after details were known.
    Do you have links/refs to details on the Ohio suspect, and to this other incident I have not hear of?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    . . .. Remember the Maine, Day of Infamy, Gulf of Tonkin, Weapons of mass destruction, and 9/11 have all been recognized by serious historians as artificial constructs.
    And, many believe, so are current acts of terrorism. . ..
    There's a big difference in my mind between the reporting of events where only a self-interested party or government is there to "report" the news and one where a half a dozen news media are there to cover it.

    In the first case, a self-serving narrative is possible, maybe even almost guaranteed if, say, it's a Putin, Trump, Xi, etc. the sole source and doing the reporting. One reason we want and need a free press, with access to government files and deliberations.

    In the second case, with a half dozen media organizations covering a shooting, there's mostly a competition to get the story. Whoever gets it right, first, "wins" that round. Now they may often jump to premature conclusions. And as in any eyewitness event, there will be wildly conflicting narratives of what happened. Conflicting reports ARE TO BE EXPECTED.

    And a Fox News and an MSNBC may see it through different lenses -- and still more wildly divergent in the corners of Internet "news." But it's unlikely bordering on ridiculous that they are planning some massive "red herring" or "false flag" narrative covering dozens of different state locations and mass murder events in some attempt to orchestrate gun control.

    Get used to it -- mass shootings are now a real feature of our culture. Not made up by a cabal of NBC, ABC, CBS, Fox, MSNBC, CNN, BBC, the Wall St. Journal, N.Y. Times, L.A. Times, Houston Chronicle, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, Miami Herald, USA Today, Denver Post, and the hundred eyewitnesses to some event.

    We also know that impressionable people will copycat widely covered suicides. There's not (thankfully) enough data on mass murders to draw the same statistical correlation -- but I'd think (especially since they reference one another) that many of the white nationalist shootings are "copycat" as well. These kids apparently think they are finally doing something "meaningful" in their sorry lives -- and live in a culture ("you're good people, too") that at least faintly approves.

    Experiment I'd like to see: do a full bio on each murderer in which we see and report what sorry losers they were in life. Have them go down not in flames of glory, but in widespread derision, disgust, and disgrace. Then see if the next one up is as eager for the same obit.

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    Often the biggest problem with conspiracy theories is the number of people and effort required to implement them. An example is the so called Holocaust deniers who claim the US army set it up. It takes time to starve people down and set up the camp and many of the victims went back to as close to normal lives as they could manage. Not one ever said the US army held them prisoner and starved them and I doubt that you could find that many volunteers, even for high pay. Besides, I knew a soldier who was in the liberating troops. and he was not a liar. Conspiracies and coverups do happen, but not nearly as many as some would have us believe.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    but what was faked about Pearl Harbor and 9/11?

    Bill
    Certainly the destruction was not faked, but the story around it may have been.
    This has always been the case. Bad people do bad things and do not want to have it known that they were responsible.

    I applaud you for your civilized inquiry (and for what appears to be a vintage motorcycle.)
    I know General Partin's video on the Oklahoma bombing is of poor quality, but you cannot doubt that A US General and expert in explosives has come forward with credible arguments against the offic1al story.

    If you desire, I would encourage you to take a look at All Wars are Banker's Wars. It sets the stage for a lot of events.
    It isn't short, but the narrator does not waste your time. It is fast paced and a surprise education for many.

    YouTube

    What about Pearl Harbor?
    This video is the first of several shorts on the subject, and the others will be available when you view the first video.
    Any search engine should provide you with a variety of videos supporting the contention, if FDR didn't know in advance and try to prevent it, he certainly did much to cause it. And his comrades, Stalin and Churchill were anxious for war.

    YouTube

    As for 911, this is the easiest "Official Story" to debunk.
    Whatever area is of interest, there is a video that debunks the party line. Airline employees, Firefighters, Military Pilots, Clean-up Crews, Metalurgists, Chemists and my favorite Architects and Engineers.
    Reflect on how a news reporter reads a prompter and tells the listeners that building #7 has just collapsed, when in fact building 7 was still standing. It was never hit by an airplane and dropped in free fall like a building being demolished.

    YouTube

    For some, this may appear to be a lot of viewing. But this is an important topic, and if you wish to speak with authority, you have to know the subject.
    I thank you for your sincere interest, and if I can help, I will.

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    First of all, I find it humorous that so many like to use the phrase "conspiracy theory" against others who question "official" versions of events while so many accept the conspiracy theory that Russians stole a U.S. election.

    While it's very disturbing to start thinking that not only your government but much of the media is lying to us that does not mean it's not so.

    ALL governments lie to their people and this has likely been true since the dawn of time. They may not lie all the time but they certainly do so whenever it suits their interests.

    The media is another matter. While there are many true journalists who work to seek and publish the truth there are also plenty of hacks. I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said that a man who is informed only by newspapers is worse informed than those who never read them.

    Things have changed in the media. Years ago I used to faithfully watch CNN in the very early morning as I got ready for work. What was reported in the early broadcasts (before 4:30-5:00 AM) often varied hugely from what later became the official story. Details were dropped and others added. Often the new details contradicted the old. Quite a few years back that changed and the early broadcasts were simply recycled from the evening news.

    At about the same time I noticed another phenomenon. No matter what channel I watched the story was virtually identical, although the presentation varied slightly. What I think few people realize is that not only are pretty much all major media owned by a handful of corporations but also how little of what is reported originates from the outlet reporting it. The wire services have for years fed stories to print media. The reporters "brush up" the story to add a little variety but the core story is the same nationwide. The same goes for much of the video feeds.

    I think it was back in the 80s when a major change happened to TV news. Instead of being a standalone entity subsidized by the network they became part of the entertainment division and were expected to earn their own keep. This changed them forever and quashed much of their independence.

    In an event like a mass shooting the reporters rely mostly on input from government sources. They have no choice because what they are reporting on involves an active crime scene still under investigation. This inability to dig deeper into events leaves them vulnerable to being told a story that omits any details that might cast officials in an unfavorable light. During the reporting on the Florida school shooting we knew nothing of the fact that deputies failed to enter the building, allowing more time for carnage. This only became known much later when independent media were able to investigate and release the news locally. Once picked up by the alternative media it went viral and eventually the major networks had to report on it.

    This happens time and time again, where small newspapers and local TV stations uncover details that radically change the narrative and after the new details are spread via the internet government agencies and major networks are forced to address them.

    This is true freedom of the press at work and while much misinformation is spread over the internet there are also nuggets of valuable truth. Currently there is a push by some in government and the corporate media to pass laws stifling the alternative media including bloggers and independent investigators. If they succeed the only "truth" we will see and hear is what has been carefully packaged for public consumption.

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    The interesting thing about the current gun control debate is the irony in the outlook on both left and right, and the contradictions neither see. I was referred to a very interesting article recently, and this was quoted near the end.

    Red: "We need guns to protect us from the government. Also, it is unpatriotic to second-guess when armed government employees kill people."

    Blue: "The government has a history of racism and oppression. Guns are instruments of death. Only government employees should have guns."


    This is the article. The data on civilian deaths from mass shootings comes from Mother Jones, hardly a "right wing" outfit.

    US Police Have Killed Over 1,200% More Citizens Than Mass Shooters Since 2015

    While I'm far from anti-police I AM alarmed at how frequently they shoot unarmed and innocent people. I've witnessed some police firearms training and it is in some cases TERRIFYING to see what they are actually being trained to do, which is to instantly shoot at any perceived threat and keep firing until the threat is "neutralized". This may be appropriate for soldiers in combat but it is unsuitable for peace officers in "the land of the free and the home of the brave".

    Please READ the article and think about your cherished beliefs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Certainly the destruction was not faked, but the story around it may have been.
    This has always been the case. Bad people do bad things and do not want to have it known that they were responsible.

    I applaud you for your civilized inquiry (and for what appears to be a vintage motorcycle.)
    I know General Partin's video on the Oklahoma bombing is of poor quality, but you cannot doubt that A US General and expert in explosives has come forward with credible arguments against the offic1al story.

    If you desire, I would encourage you to take a look at All Wars are Banker's Wars. It sets the stage for a lot of events.
    It isn't short, but the narrator does not waste your time. It is fast paced and a surprise education for many.

    YouTube

    What about Pearl Harbor?
    This video is the first of several shorts on the subject, and the others will be available when you view the first video.
    Any search engine should provide you with a variety of videos supporting the contention, if FDR didn't know in advance and try to prevent it, he certainly did much to cause it. And his comrades, Stalin and Churchill were anxious for war.

    YouTube

    As for 911, this is the easiest "Official Story" to debunk.
    Whatever area is of interest, there is a video that debunks the party line. Airline employees, Firefighters, Military Pilots, Clean-up Crews, Metalurgists, Chemists and my favorite Architects and Engineers.
    Reflect on how a news reporter reads a prompter and tells the listeners that building #7 has just collapsed, when in fact building 7 was still standing. It was never hit by an airplane and dropped in free fall like a building being demolished.

    YouTube

    For some, this may appear to be a lot of viewing. But this is an important topic, and if you wish to speak with authority, you have to know the subject.
    I thank you for your sincere interest, and if I can help, I will.
    So what exactly are you saying? I'll refrain from "trying to sway anyone", but be warned that is a 2 hour video so I did not watch it...

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Experiment I'd like to see: do a full bio on each murderer in which we see and report what sorry losers they were in life. Have them go down not in flames of glory, but in widespread derision, disgust, and disgrace. Then see if the next one up is as eager for the same obit.
    agreed, with caveat of anonyminity, no names....referred to as "the perp" or something even more derogatory...generic referrals with regards to places and such...at least as much as possible.

    also would save the family members who didn't kill someone undue grief.

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    “Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Experiment I'd like to see: do a full bio on each murderer in which we see and report what sorry losers they were in life. Have them go down not in flames of glory, but in widespread derision, disgust, and disgrace. Then see if the next one up is as eager for the same obit.“

    I don’t know. A lot has been written about these kinds of garbage and still they are idolized by sick people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trueturning View Post
    “Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Experiment I'd like to see: do a full bio on each murderer in which we see and report what sorry losers they were in life. Have them go down not in flames of glory, but in widespread derision, disgust, and disgrace. Then see if the next one up is as eager for the same obit.“

    I don’t know. A lot has been written about these kinds of garbage and still they are idolized by sick people.
    Trueturning, I see you are new, welcome.
    To quote someone and have it show up it the proper quote box, it is important to leave the [quote] at the end of what the person you are quoting typed. Then remove unneeded text from between the [quote]s as needed.

    The other "benefit" of using the quote system correctly is so that quotes stay attributed to the right people, See when I quoted you, when you were quoting PeteM it all shows as being written by you. Even if we see the front [quote] by Petes name where does his text end and yours begin?

    When the post you made does not have the greyish text block indicating someone is being quoted it looks like you are saying it all, and then we see the front quote and guess that something is being quoted but without going back to look may not be sure what it is?

    Sorry to be long winded on this

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    Is there any subject frequently debated where one side usually knows next to nothing about the subject at hand? There are lots of politicians and media personalities that spew all kinds of misinformation about guns, then their loyal followers take it and run with it. After the Ohio shooting it was common to hear talk of needing to ban high caliber rifles, and high capacity rifles. Obviously the people wanting more gun laws don't know what caliber means as the Ohio perps weapon fired .223 rounds and last I checked his rifle held a grand total of one round in the chamber. When it comes to magazine fed rifles capacity isn't dictated by the rifle, it is dictated by the magazine size. They make 100 round drums for 9mm pistols now, yet I haven't heard anyone calling a 9mm a high capacity pistol.

    When I turned 18 forty years ago mass shootings were rare, yet you could walk out of any gun store with a hand gun or rifle in 5 minutes or less. I.D., a thumb print and your address and signature in a book were all that was needed. That was even in California. Guns are harder to get now, and there are more gun laws yet mass shootings increase by the day. Also the suicide rate of teenagers and young adults has almost doubled in that time span. I find it baffling how people keep blaming the gun, they have always been here.


    I think part of the problem is how kids are raised these days, 40 years ago every other kid wasn't on ADHD meds or whatever they are. I kid thee not, 10 years ago when I lived in Cali I knew families that all 3 of their kids were taking ADHD meds. Don't know what the national average was, but a lot of So Cal people love to keep up with the trends so maybe that was the thing to do. Back in the day boys did not get put in timeout for misbehaving, or put to bed without dessert, they got the belt. When I was a preteen and we were up to mischief we feared getting caught by our parents more than the police.

    It also seems the reward and punishment system isn't what it used to be. They didn't give out participation trophies back in the day. They even kept score in T-ball games played by 6 year olds. Good kids got rewarded, bad kids punished. Now I see too often everyone gets treated the same. Kids are coddled. Back in the day if a bully was picking on you, you learned how to fight. Most bullies just want to embarrass people, if someone stands up to them and shows no fear they usually move on. If the kid was afraid of the fight back option, he could always buddy up to a bigger kid or hang out in a group. Bullies have been around since the caveman days, yet now all of a sudden they are causing mass shootings and suicides, 40 years ago they rarely had that effect. Why is that?

    I don't know the answers, I just know it isn't the gun. I have owned them for 40 years. I have had a loaded handgun in my nightstand since Carter was president. The only living creature my guns have ever shot were rattlesnakes that got too close to the house.

    As for more gun laws I could agree to a federal law allowing guns to be confiscated from someone deemed extremely dangerous, currently only a handful of states have these laws. Every one of these mass shooters seems to leave a trail of previous disturbing behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    So what exactly are you saying? I'll refrain from "trying to sway anyone", but be warned that is a 2 hour video so I did not watch it...
    I didn't watch the videos either but I can shed some light on Pearl Harbor. Some years back researchers discovered that they had cracked many of the Japanese codes (MAGIC intercepts) and knew far more about ship movements than was commonly believed. They knew the Japanese were up to SOMETHING and it was likely they would attack U.S. assets in the Pacific. Pearl Harbor was one of those assets yet they did little to prepare.

    The ships were kept in a concentrated space, supposedly for fear of sabotage by Japanese living in Hawaii. They could have hedged their bet and dispersed some of the ships as a precaution but they did not do so. They had radar to warn of approaching aircraft but many were ordered turned off overnight through early morning.

    And finally, despite the fact they strongly suspected something was going to happen neither Admiral Kimmel nor General Short were informed. An attempt to scapegoat both men for "negligence" was later tried, but both men were exonerated after the intercepts were released.

    Here is a quote from the report of the Army Pearl Harbor Board:

    "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, everything that the Japanese were planning to do was known to the United States except [Tokyo's final diplomatic message] the very hour and minute when bombs were falling on Pearl Harbor."


    For those who object to the source of this article, Suck it up. It was the fourth result in a web search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iwananew10K View Post
    . . .

    also would save the family members who didn't kill someone undue grief.
    Yup, I needed to think that through . . . thanks for the point.


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