What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Oklahoma federal building has been repeatedly mentioned throughout the thread. Here is a respected general trying to save the building from demolition since the damage done could not have all been from a fetilizer bomb in a truck, had to demolition charges placed in key structural locations.
    The Oklahoma Bombing - Red Flags From an Expert - General Partin
    It was not just fertilizer. The fertilizer part was used to "trigger" another, much more unstable chemical, which used to be readily available, but now is heavily regulated. The secondary chemical is how they found the dumbass (I won't name him) so quickly. The investigators found the residue, someone knew what it meant, and they went to the closest place it was available. He left an obvious paper trail at the point of purchase. No conspiracy, no confusion about how a simple "fertilizer" bomb could do so much destruction.
    The industry I was involved in at the time was directly affected by the new regs, and I was in a meeting with 100 or more other folks when it was explained to us.
    I do not know why the info hasn't (to my knowledge) been made public, except for the "copycat" angle, I suppose.

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    [quote=9100;3397450]
    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    In the process, she found that in the area, massai and luo country, young men were required to do in effect military service, protecting the village until they were 25, then they could marry and raise cattle or whatever. She was struck by the similarity to "ghetto" men who defended their turf, often fatally until, about 25 and then went on to other activities. Can this behavior be inherited or passed down through generations in a land where it was not needed?
    Except that it IS needed. Consider if you're a minority in an impoverished neighborhood. Your school sucks, there are few legal job prospects, your single parent is always at work, and you have a younger sibling to protect. Will you rely on police, who are as likely to beat you up, bring you up on false charges and planted evidence, or shoot you as help you? Or will you look to others in your same situation, and band together for mutual protection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    At about the same time I noticed another phenomenon. No matter what channel I watched the story was virtually identical, although the presentation varied slightly. What I think few people realize is that not only are pretty much all major media owned by a handful of corporations but also how little of what is reported originates from the outlet reporting it. The wire services have for years fed stories to print media. The reporters "brush up" the story to add a little variety but the core story is the same nationwide. The same goes for much of the video feeds.
    Here's a video from last year that shows just how true and scary this is.

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    Loved that video, thanks. I couldn't stop laughing while watching!

    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    Here's a video from last year that shows just how true and scary this is.

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    Default So what can be done right now to reduce "gun violence"?

    How about insisting on compliance with existing law where it might do the most good? Several of these shooters were able to purchase firearms legally despite things in their past that should have disqualified them. Why? Because the disqualifying events were never reported.

    For many years now we've had the National Instant Check System (NICS). Many disqualifying events were not being reported by states and even some federal agencies. The problem led Congress to pass legislation requiring the reporting but it is still being ignored in many cases.

    I'm not a fan of all these laws but the system does exist, has been in place for years, and would have hindered several of these recent shooters if the disqualifying info was in the system.

    One of these monsters had not only a kill list but also a rape list. He was suspended from school and later reinstated. Perhaps I'm just out of touch with modernity but to me that kind of behavior is in itself a "red flag" and if it had been dealt with in court he would have been disqualified. He also might have got the help and attention he needed.

    In an earlier post I mentioned the lack of prosecution for straw purchasers. One of the excuses given was that the penalties weren't heavy enough to justify prosecution. That may be, but if they had been prosecuted they probably would plead guilty to avoid jail time and could be entered into the NICS system. They could never make a straw purchase again, which would be a good start toward reducing the flow of crime guns.

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    For those wondering about an independent news media – it isn't.
    And with the internet, if your content isn't politically correct enough, you'll get unfunded, censored and unplugged.

    This is just one of the many programs in place.
    Operation Mockingbird.

    YouTube

    And to see it in action...
    More of how scary this is.
    The first 2 minutes may be skipped.

    YouTube

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    The army board report:

    “The attack on the Territory of Hawaii was a surprise to all
    concerned: the nation, the War Department, and the Hawaiian Department.
    It was daring, well-conceived and well-executed, and it caught the
    defending forces practically unprepared to meet it or to minimize its
    destructiveness.”

    REPORT OF ARMY PEARL HARBOR BOARD

    Want real conjecture.
    It is quite plausible that false narratives which are destructive to the cohesion of our nation are propagated by parties for which benefit is derived from that destruction.

    I would have hoped that due diligence on such matters would have been a point of honor for Americans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    How about insisting on compliance with existing law where it might do the most good?
    Show me a government that is prosecuting Eric Holder for Fast and Furious and I'll see a government that is trying to reduce crime.
    Until then, not so much.
    Show me a criminal that obeys the laws, and I won't have to give up my rights. Until then, I better not give up my rights.

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    There were two reports issued by the Army Board. One was Top Secret and does not seem to be in that ibiblio archive but it is mentioned in a critical review of the report:

    "MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY OF WAR

    Subject: Top Secret Report, Army Pearl Harbor Board

    This will confirm my views heretofore expressed to you orally.

    The Army Pearl Harbor Board made two separate reports. One was
    classified as secret and consisted of two volumes. The other was
    classified as Top secret and consisted of one volume."

    http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/army/tsreport.html#5

    Near the very end (about 8 or 9 paragraphs from the end) the summary mentioned in the article is quoted:

    'The Board further found:

    "Up to the morning of December 7, 1941, everything that the Japanese
    were planning to do was known to the United States except the final
    message instructing the Japanese Embassy to present the 14th part
    together with the preceding 13 parts of the long message at one o'clock
    on December 7, or the very hour and minute when bombs were falling on
    Pearl Harbor. (P. 18)"'

    This was, and still is a contentious subject (with multiple boards, reviews, and reports) but the fact that there were different opinions does not in any way erase that this WAS a conclusion in the Top Secret Army Board report (but it was not in the Secret report). Conjecture it may have been but it was the conjecture of the Army Board and I doubt very much they were trying to destroy our nation. The report with that summary and other information that questioned how much of a surprise the attack had been was made Top Secret because it was feared the contents might demoralize the nation in a time of war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    The army board report:

    “The attack on the Territory of Hawaii was a surprise to all
    concerned: the nation, the War Department, and the Hawaiian Department.
    It was daring, well-conceived and well-executed, and it caught the
    defending forces practically unprepared to meet it or to minimize its
    destructiveness.”

    REPORT OF ARMY PEARL HARBOR BOARD

    Want real conjecture.
    It is quite plausible that false narratives which are destructive to the cohesion of our nation are propagated by parties for which benefit is derived from that destruction.

    I would have hoped that due diligence on such matters would have been a point of honor for Americans.

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    Scott- where exactly are you getting this information?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHook View Post
    It was not just fertilizer. The fertilizer part was used to "trigger" another, much more unstable chemical, which used to be readily available, but now is heavily regulated. The secondary chemical is how they found the dumbass (I won't name him) so quickly. The investigators found the residue, someone knew what it meant, and they went to the closest place it was available. He left an obvious paper trail at the point of purchase. No conspiracy, no confusion about how a simple "fertilizer" bomb could do so much destruction.
    The industry I was involved in at the time was directly affected by the new regs, and I was in a meeting with 100 or more other folks when it was explained to us.
    I do not know why the info hasn't (to my knowledge) been made public, except for the "copycat" angle, I suppose.
    Expert as he was, he was an Air Force General. Those designing bombs for air-drop use the "expensive", harder to source, and harder to manufacture stuff - including materials lab-designed for their needs.

    I said, earlier, it did not need to be a "conspiracy", and that I was OK with leaving it to those whose JOB it is to take care of such matters.

    All it needed was for someone elsewhere in Government - FBI, other Law enforcement, experienced EOD or Corps of Engineers who know about "the cheap stuff" and IED's to put him wise. Then suggest he STFU to reduce the risk of copying. As may have happened.

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    Back to the original post.... What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence?

    My opinion, there's a few parts to this, and while simple in concept, they make for a very difficult job. We, as individuals, or as a group, can do a much better job raising our children. That's the first step. My kids are far from perfect, but they were taught from a young age how to handle firearms. Prior to that, they were taught how to handle their emotions. They understand that you don't want to handle firearms when you're upset, and that when you're upset, you stay clear of the firearms, because those are two things that when combined only make things worse.

    Now, my wife and I have done a good job with our kids, sadly, we are in a distinct minority. Far too many people in this country, with emphasis on the urban areas, essentially let their kids run free and be raised by other kids. This is akin to letting wild dogs raise your puppy, then wondering why it bites the mailman. So, that's step #1.

    The next step is to address the mental health issues we have in this country. Yes, 38,000 firearms related deaths in this country per year is a horrible statistic. What's worse is when you understand that 24,000 of them are suicides, and that's just the ones who chose a firearm... total suicides are 47,000... BTW, these are 2016 numbers, the last year the CDC has released data on.

    FastStats - Suicide and Self-Inflicted Injury

    FastStats - Leading Causes of Death

    So, suicide is the #9 cause of death in this country. Homicide, meaning ALL forms of intentionally killing another human, is #20 on that list. We're talking the difference between 47,000 and 5,700 lives lost per year.

    By that logic, we should be giving suicide 8x the attention we give to all homicides....

    Fix those two problems, raising kids and addressing our national mental health issues, and I'm willing to bet you the violence problem drops like a rock... because happy people who were raised to value other humans lives don't go out and commit mass murder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Show me a government that is prosecuting Eric Holder for Fast and Furious and I'll see a government that is trying to reduce crime.
    Holder was not the first. Not by a long shot. Comey, Orr & Co. will not be the last to get cut a free pass, either. When it gets to where they cannot hide, they no longer hide. They just bend the narrative in a willing media.

    Speaking of bending narratives:

    Hong Kong.. one talking-head in OUR media asked "how" the videos were getting out. '

    Scuse me? Everyone in Hong Kong old enough to walk or young enough to not yet have been cremated is carrying a cell phone with a camera. For starters. Hobbyists have studio-grade digital gear.

    How would they NOT get out? Time was, Hong Kong HAD more international bandwidth linkage than the entirety of Japan.

    PRC send in troops? In due course. Humanitaran aid. "Peace Keepers", rooshin style.

    But only after they first cut-off the water supply from the mainland Hong Kong depends on, the power from a PRC nuclear generator, the fuel for HKG's own generating stations.

    And the food Hong Kong imports all day, every day - until they no longer can do.

    Once there is no longer water, food, power, or communications? THEN they can operate out of sight and write their own version of history.

    Just which US city is any LESS vulnerable
    than Hong Kong to transport, power, food, fuel, and water, strangulation?

    It does not take much. Recall a severe winter not all that long ago when New York city feared buildings going cold and folks going hungry off icy roads and a possible Teamster's strike that would stop food and heating oil delivery?

    Fragile creatures, complex societies, as to water, food, and fuel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Scott- where exactly are you getting this information?
    I looked for it.

    In the case of my previous post I just followed the link you provided and went up one level to the index. I opened a couple of the links that looked likely and examined them. Using boolean searches saves a lot of time as you can look for specific text strings within a file or when using a search engine. It only took a few minutes to find the parts I quoted. I knew there had been multiple inquiries and reports and suspected you had linked to a different document.

    By using proven search methods it is not necessary to read the entire document unless it is a raw scan that can't be searched for text.

    I hope that answers your question.

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    Thanks for that Scott.
    Here is the page which contains the Top Secret version of that report.
    (A note on the passage you provided towards end):

    http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pha/army/tsreport.html#5

    None of my comments are directed at you.
    I know you are intelligent and informed about issues.
    I do take take issue with some of the sites which misrepresent things.
    My take is these are fifth column type actions.
    I might be putting to much weight to things but they seem intended to discredit our country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Get used to it -- mass shootings are now a real feature of our culture.
    Finally somebody gets it. Can we all put away the smelling salts and fainting couches now?

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    Cultural norms can change, JIm.

    Otherwise most of our "wealth" would be tied up in slaves, women wouldn't vote, kids would want 8-track players and tail fins in their first car, and you and I might be wearing bell bottom pants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    We also had the 53rd anniversary of the Richard Speck murders of 8 student nurses.
    Bill
    Eight. Hmmm.

    58 killed in Las Vegas
    49 killed in Orlando
    32 killed at Virginia Tech
    26 killed in Newtown, at Sandy Hook Elementary School, including 20 six- and seven-year old children
    26 killed in Sutherland Springs
    22 killed in El Paso
    17 killed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
    14 killed in San Bernadino
    12 killed in Virginia Beach
    12 killed in Thousand Oaks
    12 killed in the Washington Navy Yard
    12 killed in Aurora
    11 killed in Pittsburgh, at the Tree of Life synagogue
    10 killed in Santa Fe, Texas, at Santa Fe High School
    9 killed in Dayton, 13 hours after the El Paso massacre
    9 killed in Roseburg, Oregon, at Umpqua Community College
    9 killed at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, in Charleston, South Carolina

    Again there is no changing this. Expect more, the politics and history of US gun ownership means no change here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Cultural norms can change, JIm.

    Otherwise most of our wealth would be tied up in slaves, women wouldn't vote, kids would want 8-track players in their Impalas with tail fins, and you and I might be wearing bell bottom pants.
    Not sure I see the "change", what with tax and economic slavery, women cancelling-out each other's votes, iPods, and cargo pants. Mind, the tail finds HAVE returned to the "round fender" era, but they aren't ON cars theses days. Reality TV star arses built like a Dexter horse instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    . . . Reality TV star arses built like a Dexter horse instead.
    That a car-dash-'n fashion reference, Bill?

    Still seems possible to me that "Rambo" might go out of style. Genes are like hardware. Culture is like software. We humans are still running on a 60,000 year old genetic hardware and low level operating system. There's lots wired in. But how a civilization expresses those things can change in much shorter periods of time.

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