What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 22
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    That a car-dash-'n fashion reference, Bill?

    Still seems possible to me that "Rambo" might go out of style. Genes are like hardware. Culture is like software. We humans are still running on a 60,000 year old genetic hardware and low level operating system. There's lots wired in. But how a civilization expresses those things can change in much shorter periods of time.
    Your reading material is too limited.

    It seems to take under an hour for our DYNAMIC systems - constantly modifying themselves - to haul "junk" DNA off the reserve roster, activate what's needed for a current challenge, go about folding proteins and such. Immune system is one of the more obvious fast-movers.

    You didn't REALLY think the "current" rev off a multi-billion-year run of production line changes was PASSIVE did you?

    Even Octopi go about actively modifying themselves by altering RNA. Live. In "near real time", even.

    And then.... this might not even be our first "universe" cycle...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Your reading material is too limited....
    Seems you were just arguing a moment earlier, Bill, that not much changes. Now, even genetic change is easy. Seems Jim is way too pessimistic. We're going to haul off our junk DNA, fold new proteins, energize our immune systems, and alter our RNA -- and better address the issues of senseless mass murders?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Eight. Hmmm.

    58 killed in Las Vegas
    49 killed in Orlando
    32 killed at Virginia Tech
    26 killed in Newtown, at Sandy Hook Elementary School, including 20 six- and seven-year old children
    26 killed in Sutherland Springs
    22 killed in El Paso
    17 killed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
    14 killed in San Bernadino
    12 killed in Virginia Beach
    12 killed in Thousand Oaks
    12 killed in the Washington Navy Yard
    12 killed in Aurora
    11 killed in Pittsburgh, at the Tree of Life synagogue
    10 killed in Santa Fe, Texas, at Santa Fe High School
    9 killed in Dayton, 13 hours after the El Paso massacre
    9 killed in Roseburg, Oregon, at Umpqua Community College
    9 killed at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, in Charleston, South Carolina

    Again there is no changing this. Expect more, the politics and history of US gun ownership means no change here.
    Sad stats indeed.
    Is it even possible to find stats on the number of incidents in which over the same period citizens successfully defended life and property with firearms permitted or not before LEO arrived?
    The knee jerk "do something" crowd wouldn't want that info available to the public.
    Look at the list and consider all the variables as to legal purchase or not, weapon type, motivation , mental history, gun free zone etc. etc.
    How on earth can all those variables be legislated away?
    I say death penalty and arming up are the answer. Anything else is a waste of time and human life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Eight. Hmmm.

    58 killed in Las Vegas
    49 killed in Orlando
    32 killed at Virginia Tech
    26 killed in Newtown, at Sandy Hook Elementary School, including 20 six- and seven-year old children
    26 killed in Sutherland Springs
    22 killed in El Paso
    17 killed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
    14 killed in San Bernadino
    12 killed in Virginia Beach
    12 killed in Thousand Oaks
    12 killed in the Washington Navy Yard
    12 killed in Aurora
    11 killed in Pittsburgh, at the Tree of Life synagogue
    10 killed in Santa Fe, Texas, at Santa Fe High School
    9 killed in Dayton, 13 hours after the El Paso massacre
    9 killed in Roseburg, Oregon, at Umpqua Community College
    9 killed at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, in Charleston, South Carolina

    Again there is no changing this. Expect more, the politics and history of US gun ownership means no change here.
    Well, I will admit that you are persistent. Are you aware that half the people in the world carry a chromosome that makes them tend to violence?

    The Y chromosome: beyond gender determination | NHGRI

    Not only that, it is deteriorating.

    Another thing I have never thought about until now- a writer writes, a flyer flies, a drinker drinks, does a pessimist pessim?

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by john worden View Post
    . . . The knee jerk "do something" crowd wouldn't want that info available to the public. . . .
    FWIW, it's the gun lobby that doesn't want to fund any sort of data collection and analysis.

    I think that one of the things that missed in various what-causes-what arguments is that the main three variables (Rambo culture, too many angry or despondent (mostly) young men, and their ease in acquiring especially lethal weapons) aren't entirely independent. The question isn't really if more guns make us more or less likely to be victims, but in how those three variables interact.

    As an example, a nation that thinks owning a basement full of semi-automatic weapons isn't all that manly (maybe more like strutting around after stuffing a sock in your underwear) might simultaneously not have as much of a Rambo culture and fewer or their own angry or despairing losers who see weapons as an answer. There are examples of those nations -- and they have fewer murders. By worshipping guns (and even as an old guy I still think they're kind of cool), we not only make them more available but also encourage their use. I suspect the Swiss would be a good example of lots of guns, but more of an organized militia than a Rambo culture (in namesake movies, first person shooter games, nightly news, and even in threads like these).

    John, your argument seems to be that (as a sane, upright citizen, concealed carry licensed, and presumably well trained Rambo) can kill some guy (crazy, loser, unlicensed, and maybe not well trained wanna-be Rambo) after he gets only a few shots off. I don't doubt it would sometimes be true. You, personally, might even do better than the average cop faced with sometimes superior firepower. But it's surely not, as you suggest, the only approach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Show me a criminal that obeys the laws, and I won't have to give up my rights.
    That is the unfortunate problem with the "reasonable regulations" approach. We already have "reasonable regulations" except they are not enforced. We also have programs for crazy people who need help, but it seems that very few of the shooters are directed that way, even with abundant evidence they should be.

    PeteM, there are regulations against killing your mother, but they didn't stop Edmund Kemper. There are regulations against strangling young boys and burying them under the house but they didn't stop John Wayne Gacy. There are regulations against killing street prostitutes (gay or otherwise) and drilling holes in their heads then cutting them up and keeping the parts in the refrigerator but it didn;t stop Jeffrey Dahmer. Ironically, the cops even returned one of his victims to him ... "'Scuse me but this naked guy was running down the street leaking blood and saying you were trying to kill him, so we thought you'd like to have him back ..."

    Scottl seems to have a point about enforcement of existing regulations. In some cases it lacks a certain enthusiasm. (Deputies helping Richard Allen Davis out of the ditch, throwing the empties back in his trunk then waving byte-bye while Polly Klaas was tied to a tree twenty feet away comes to mind.)

    Regulations really don't affect crazy people. Seriously. Even in places where guns are totally illegal, you can get or make them, with the Troubles being just one example.

    Maybe we should be happy that gun killers are not using other, worse methods. At least a quick bullet is more humane than being Jeffrey Dahmer's boyfriend.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    I might be putting to much weight to things but they seem intended to discredit our country.
    Oh, stop. The US has done so much to discredit itself, no help is needed. Just two eyes that see is enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrHook View Post
    It was not just fertilizer. The fertilizer part was used to "trigger" another, much more unstable chemical,
    I do not know why the info hasn't (to my knowledge) been made public,
    Without some evidence or statements by an expert, this is pure conjecture. Or subterfuge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    . . . PeteM, there are regulations against killing your mother, but they didn't stop Edmund Kemper. . . .
    Manny, you seem to have missed my point, which is that we have to work on three fronts.

    First, address the culture. Seems our left out to be doing this, aligned as they are with media glorifying violence. I don't think you legislate this, any more than you try to outlaw bagpipes or bell bottom jeans. Rather more of us (women, moms, dads, cops, veterans, athletes, etc.) just point out there's nothing all that manly about pulling a trigger (virtual or real) and killing people. The more you brag about your guns, the smaller we assume your dick is.

    Second, address the tiny fraction of the population that takes the leap from pretending they're Rambo to actually planning and executing an attack. Part of this gets addressed by making the pockets of support for that notion smaller. Other parts deal with adding mental health to our national system of care. Oops, having a national system of care and adding mental health to it. This may be a mix of being more inclusive of kids currently being bullied, actual mental health care, and some greater and intelligent vigilance.

    Third part is making it harder for nut jobs and criminals to get semi-automatic weapons. There's some sensible regulation here but just doing that would delay or stop some fraction of the murders. And as others have said, we could just seriously enforce the laws we have and make strides as well.

    Might even be interesting to re-invigorate our state national guards more along the lines the Founders envisioned. Maybe other forms of national service as well. Haven't thought that one through, but not sure anyone else has either.

    There will still be nut jobs doing harm. But right now our nation is awash in motivation (killing people is cool, if only in first person shooters), too many angry nut jobs (from gang bangers to neo Nazis and other loonies), and too-easy access to weapons whose main purpose is to kill (rather than hunt, sport shoot, defend a home, or restrain whatever group is currently in power from trying to skip or steal the next election).

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    1960s was the start of the large statistical increase in homicides and illegitimate children. Primary variables were removing God from schools and the Free Love movement. Teach a kid they are an animal once or twice removed from a chimpanzee with no eternal accountability and what do you expect? Teach people to do what feels good and you have 3/4 of our kids in the US without a father in the home. Bring God back, problems get smaller.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Expert as he was, he was an Air Force General. Those designing bombs for air-drop use the "expensive", harder to source, and harder to manufacture stuff - including materials lab-designed for their needs.

    I said, earlier, it did not need to be a "conspiracy", and that I was OK with leaving it to those whose JOB it is to take care of such matters.

    All it needed was for someone elsewhere in Government - FBI, other Law enforcement, experienced EOD or Corps of Engineers who know about "the cheap stuff" and IED's to put him wise. Then suggest he STFU to reduce the risk of copying. As may have happened.
    I can assure you that the Air Force is fully aware of IEDs. And every other type of explosive device from aerosol cans, to black powder, to match head bombs. And certainly ANFO.
    And if you Want General Partin to STFU, this is your chance to do it. Refute his arguments and evidence if you think you know more than he does.
    There is a reason why no one has contradicted him.
    And it is the same reason why you have never seen a video of the explosion despite the scores of security cameras in the area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    1960s was the start of the large statistical increase in homicides and illegitimate children. Primary variables were removing God from schools and the Free Love movement. Teach a kid they are an animal once or twice removed from a chimpanzee with no eternal accountability and what do you expect? Teach people to do what feels good and you have 3/4 of our kids in the US without a father in the home. Bring God back, problems get smaller.
    The U.S. is already the most fundamentally religious (no evolution for 30% or so of us, 6000-10,000 year old planet) and evangelical first world nation in the solar system. That part doesn't seem to be working for us compared to the relative infidels in Northern Europe, Japan, etc. etc.

    In this hemisphere, nations like Mexico and Columbia are almost entirely Roman Catholic. Doesn't seem to make them peaceful, though.

    You do have a point about families. I'd rephrase it as too many kids without at least one competent and caring adult on their side. We're having a crisis on that front and at most every level of society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Manny, you seem to have missed my point, which is that we have to work on three fronts.
    No, I see your point and don't even disagree with it, just fear that those things will make no difference. There have been monsters in the US all the way back to the grey man, that we know of. Probably even before him. I haven't read of too many of those guys recently, maybe they just took to shooting up schools. If so, not much is going to change.

    If these were rational people, yes. But they do not appear to be.

    Putting them away early might be the best answer. Many, if not most, mass killers seem to have exhibited some prettty gruesome clues long before they shot up the store.

    I find it inexplicable that you can go to traffic court and see guys doing weekends for rolling through a stop sign (usually teenagers before a grumpy judge) while a kid who is tearing the legs off neighborhood cats flies under the radar.

    Sorry to be so negative but there really are psychotic people out there.

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    As you say, there are often plenty of warning signs.

    Worth distinguishing psychosis and psychopathy.

    Mental breaks (bipolar, schizophrenia, PTSD) don't typically end in mass murders. People are often so screwed up they can't plan much -- or they're so messed up it's obvious. These breaks often respond to treatment. We could help these people, but instead throw them on the streets, homeless.

    The small percent of us well along the spectrum from sociopath to psychopath start like your kid pulling legs off the neighborhood cats. Plenty of advance warning and they often end up as our most violent criminals. It's an apparently innate trait, very difficult (maybe impossible) to change, sometimes possible to channel into less malicious pursuits. Latest research suggests it's a sort of dopamine addiction combined with a near to complete lack of empathy. These are the ones where the smartest ones plan and back stab their way to the top of criminal gangs (or even companies) -- and the double losers may commit mayhem just for the sick rush of it.

    Wouldn't surprise me at all if we'll be seeing fairly accurate genetic diagnoses in the near future. Even without it, the traits become pretty obvious. How we choose to deal with that is another question. Can't put a kid in jail for having scary genes. Can try to re-channel that desire for a rush, to manipulate people and cause harm. And, given enough warning behavior, can watch very closely (after the neighborhood cats have all lost their legs) when they want to buy a shitload of automatic weapons or invite friends over who never seem to leave. Just making sure the Mrs. Lanzas of the world know how to better deal with her scary son would be a start.

    Might be some of the recent shooters are in a some other category (e.g. the pissed off white supremacists, the incels, or the bullied kids who aren't going to take it anymore).

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    In this hemisphere, nations like Mexico and Columbia are almost entirely Roman Catholic. Doesn't seem to make them peaceful, though.
    Nonsense. "Roman Catholic" is just what they are most-often "lapsed from". It doesn't make any sort of useful LABEL to begin with.

    Check your history.

    - Priests slaughtered by mobs for their support of enslaving feudal overlords to

    - Priests slaughtered by feudal overlords for support of the masses.

    See also "Cristoferos" or "Cristero War" an ARMED rebellion not yet a full hundred years forgotten against an atheist Mexican government as got too vicious about that.

    Or track the sale of condoms, as Durex do (mainland Chinese use the most per-capita, FWIW).

    Complex, the relationship between and among a people, their church(es) and their states. Very.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Nonsense. "Roman Catholic" is just what they are most-often "lapsed from". It doesn't make any sort of useful LABEL to begin with. . .
    Which was pretty much my point. "Christian" (pick your flavor) doesn't predict a less violent or homicidal society. What correlation there is seems to range between "none" and "more violent" when compared to less religious first world societies. Most Christians ARE peaceful, but then so are most Buddhists, Jews, agnostics, atheists, lapsed Catholics, etc. Seems you don't have to be constantly told you'll miss out on Heaven and burn in Hell to still live the Golden Rule*.

    FWIW, there is a strong correlation between lack of secure attachment (no competent and caring kid in a kids' life, especially early on) and problems later in life. We could work on that.

    * Anyone who wants to discover this for themselves can look at intentional homicide rates by country (readily available) and cross check it with the religious norms and percentages in the World Values Survey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Which was pretty much my point. "Christian" (pick your flavor) doesn't necessarily predict a less violent or homicidal society.
    It was not a "point". The label wasn't accurate to begin with.

    Head of Ministerio de Prensa y Propaganda, at the time Jose Lopez Portillo was being position by Partido Revolutionario Insitutional to take his rota as President was a Balt, and Jewish.

    There has always been LOT of European direct influence as flies right over the heads of the body politic, early empire to present-day.

    Mexico's wealthiest man, Carlos Slim? Maronite, not Roman Catholic. As one might expect of a Lebanese born "Salim" rather than "Slim".

    That said, at least there isn't a lot of the SUICIDAL looter-cult as messed-up Lebanon. Among other places everywhere they go to loot. Whenever and however they can get out of the Middle East.

    That is not optional. It is wired-in. Hard, and in no wise hidden. Just read their book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Eight. Hmmm.

    58 killed in Las Vegas
    49 killed in Orlando
    32 killed at Virginia Tech
    26 killed in Newtown, at Sandy Hook Elementary School, including 20 six- and seven-year old children
    26 killed in Sutherland Springs
    22 killed in El Paso
    17 killed at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
    14 killed in San Bernadino
    12 killed in Virginia Beach
    12 killed in Thousand Oaks
    12 killed in the Washington Navy Yard
    12 killed in Aurora
    11 killed in Pittsburgh, at the Tree of Life synagogue
    10 killed in Santa Fe, Texas, at Santa Fe High School
    9 killed in Dayton, 13 hours after the El Paso massacre
    9 killed in Roseburg, Oregon, at Umpqua Community College
    9 killed at Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, in Charleston, South Carolina

    Again there is no changing this. Expect more, the politics and history of US gun ownership means no change here.
    Left out the incident this year at the Gilroy Garlic Festival in CA.

    Look at the number of people who drown in swimming pools each year. The numbers above are all clumped into one bunch from past years to present. On a yearly basis the shooting deaths are small in comparison. The search I did says roughly 3650 die each year from drowning in a pool. Ten per day, every day of the year. Expected the numbers to be 2-3 times from reports a few years ago.

    Which is More Dangerous, a Gun or a Swimming Pool? - JACKSON & WILSON

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    Quote Originally Posted by rons View Post
    Left out the incident this year at the Gilroy Garlic Festival in CA.

    Look at the number of people who drown in swimming pools each year. The numbers above are all clumped into one bunch from past years to present. On a yearly basis the shooting deaths are small in comparison. The search I did says roughly 3650 die each year from drowning in a pool. Ten per day, every day of the year.

    Which is More Dangerous, a Gun or a Swimming Pool? - JACKSON & WILSON
    Only 3650 per year?

    How about nearly as many each DAY?

    Extract:
    Nearly 1.25 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day.
    An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled.
    From:

    Road Safety Facts — Association for Safe International Road Travel

    Is their "good news"? Oh.. but surely there is!

    Alexandria O'S4B means to ban automobiles and aircraft as well as cattle of-the-four-legged-kind. To be replaced by cattle-of-the-two-legged-kind. As usual, looter/parasite mentality in general.

    Are so-called "conservatives" going to resist that madness with force of arms?
    No Fine Way. None. Zero. No risk of that atall.

    No need, y'see.

    Just infect them with TDS, they'll voluntarily lock mouth to anus, real-folk stand aside and let the foolish cannibals of the Zombie apocalypse devour each other. Then themselves.

    In no particular order. Great entertainment, too, coz they draw it out so slowly and viciously.

    Couldn't happen to a more deserving crowd, either, their suicidal "circular firing squads".

    Damned poor jokes, these leftists. But there you have it. Make the best of it. Take what you can get, eat what is put on your plate.

    Better than no jokes at all, yah?

    A country, boy..CAN survive.

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    Speaking of truth.

    Reducing gun deaths is a direct result of reducing guns.
    The United States could follow the clearly successful programs in other countries.
    The formula is direct:

    1. No pistols
    2. No magazine fed firearms (and perhaps not needed to say but no semi’s..).

    Exceptions in rare instances- for those few match participants etc.
    Acceptable to anyone on this forum?

    Probably not but it is proven to work.
    Gun ownership has been falling in the US for forty years.
    We break down below 30% or so and the above will fall into place without much of a stir.
    Most of us will be long gone or past caring by the time it comes along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Speaking of truth.

    Reducing gun deaths is a direct result of reducing guns.
    The United States could follow the clearly successful programs in other countries.
    The formula is direct:

    1. No pistols
    2. No magazine fed firearms (and perhaps not needed to say but no semi’s..).

    Exceptions in rare instances- for those few match participants etc.
    Acceptable to anyone on this forum?

    Probably not but it is proven to work.
    Gun ownership has been falling in the US for forty years.
    We break down below 30% or so and the above will fall into place without much of a stir.
    Most of us will be long gone or past caring by the time it comes along.
    God himself will have died of old age before any such looter-fantasy ever arrives in America.

    Identify as one who wants OTHER law-abiding citizens disarmed? Natural they'll question your motive in wanting them rendered more vulnerable than they already are. What might your NEXT plan be?
    Vote they be re-classifed as food? How about just taxed to death, slowly?

    Why do dreamers keep-on dreaming that basic common sense will be suspended off the back of all evidence to the contrary?

    Every single time the parasitic classes make that sort of noise, guns sales go UP, not DOWN.


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