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  1. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    One thing that has become clear in many discussions is that a lot of people don't really know what an AR-15 is. If all their "knowledge" comes from media they are likely to believe ...

    That it is the same as the similar looking M-16 and M4 rifles used by the military.

    That it "sprays" bullets.

    That the cartridge is some kind of super power round in comparison to others in common use.

    That it is designed "only for killing human beings" and has no legitimate civilian use.

    Some, who should know better, have suggested that those who own them are "Rambo wannabees" or own them so they can pretend to be soldiers, etc. etc.

    In light of that I thought I would post a link to this article that not only gives an idea of how many are owned in the U.S. but also has an interesting (and fairly short) video detailing some of the history of military and civilian firearms in the U.S.

    The Number of AR-15s In America Will Shock Anti-Gunners
    That's nothing. I was once watching an episode of Chicago Fire, the fireman were inside a burning building and they thought they taking heavy sniper fire, they all ducked for cover, one fireman was shot. The scene had the sounds of bullets whizzing through the air and the effects of bullets striking around them. The source of the heavy gunfire was discovered to be a stash of ammo in a closet. I was like, "Are you kidding me?" I wonder how many people believe that event was possible?

    Back in the day I was one of the first people to have the NFL package on Directv. I had quite a few friends over on Sundays, some guys would bring their wives or people I had never met. Whenever gun discussions would come up, especially people upset about a kid getting shot with a toy gun I would lay a 9mm (with an empty magazine and clear chamber of course) and a .177 Co2 pellet gun on the kitchen counter, told them to look but don't touch and tell me what was what and why. The accuracy rate was the random 50% and only one of them gave an acceptable reason for being correct. QC inspector from a machine shop noticed the difference in the bores in the barrel.

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  3. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    That's nothing. I was once watching an episode of Chicago Fire, the fireman were inside a burning building and they thought they taking heavy sniper fire, they all ducked for cover, one fireman was shot. The scene had the sounds of bullets whizzing through the air and the effects of bullets striking around them. The source of the heavy gunfire was discovered to be a stash of ammo in a closet. I was like, "Are you kidding me?" I wonder how many people believe that event was possible?

    Back in the day I was one of the first people to have the NFL package on Directv. I had quite a few friends over on Sundays, some guys would bring their wives or people I had never met. Whenever gun discussions would come up, especially people upset about a kid getting shot with a toy gun I would lay a 9mm (with an empty magazine and clear chamber of course) and a .177 Co2 pellet gun on the kitchen counter, told them to look but don't touch and tell me what was what and why. The accuracy rate was the random 50% and only one of them gave an acceptable reason for being correct. QC inspector from a machine shop noticed the difference in the bores in the barrel.
    Worse, I got my first 1911 when I was 19 YO and have owned them most of my life, the point being that I know exactly what one looks like. A friend has an airsoft pistol that I cannot tell from a real one from a few feet away. If you pointed it at a cop, he would be completely justified for shooting.

    The nonsense on TV extends far past guns. I remember a short lived program where a kid caused an accident by messing with the nose wheel on a Stearman. They listed Charlie Hillard as a consultant. Charlie was once world aerobatic champion (and a really nice guy). He knew that a Stearman was a taildragger, so how did that get into the program? Someone had to have decided to ignore him to make the story the way they wanted it. Another was when someone shot a pole transformer to make it explode, which it would do because its oil had PCB in it. PCB is a fire retardant, idiot. I think most people think semi-automatic is some sort of evil device. Even our president, Bush I said we had to do something about these semi-automatic handguns.

    Bill

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  5. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    The source of the heavy gunfire was discovered to be a stash of ammo in a closet. I was like, "Are you kidding me?" I wonder how many people believe that event was possible?
    Not only "possible" it was long used in formal training. "Aggressor" forces never had the headcount of the trainees. We amplified our effect by having several small fires going in, for example, a simulated Vietnamese village that was the target. As the opposing force approached, a few handfuls of 7.62 NATO BLANK ammo was pitched into each fire, and we melted back into our ambush positions and tunnels.

    Within a few minutes those rounds began cooking-off like loud popcorn, creating the impression the invaders had come under fire from several positions - which were not actually manned. As they tried to ID the source and return fire, we opened up from other, concealed, positions.

    Live rounds, rather than blanks, could still do injury - the firefighter case - but do not have anywhere near the velocity they would develop in a proper firearm's chamber and barrel.

    2CW

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  7. #464
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    A couple of decades ago I was in a doctors office preparing for eye surgery. I was quizzing the doc about how clear my vision would be post "procedure". I briefly touched on sight alignment and how minute errors were magnified over distance. Her response was a quick "I don't know anything about guns". I replied "well, that's sad". When I saw the confused look I continued with "That just means that what you think you know comes from television, the movies and the news. Please remember how accurate those sources are when they describe medical situations". One eyebrow went up, she heard me, and listened. The "procedure" went well.

    Where people get their information about guns dictates the message. If urban, a bang is usually a unacceptable thing. If rural, a bang is usually an acceptable thing. This expectation becomes ingrained and if coupled with a lack of exposure to factual information almost insures the side of the gun violence/control rhetoric someone gravitates toward.

    The divide in America is less Red/Blue as it is Urban/Rural. And then only because of how day to day existence is approached in the two different environments.

    Unfortunately, many Federal laws are unable to acceptably bridge the two environments. So we have states. As the division of environments grow within the states, we resort to city/county and then to incorporated/unincorporated areas. At this point the division can literally come down to which side of the road you live on.

    Division is stoked by the media as a means for profit. Fewer people will listen to a story about harmony than a story where both sides generate strong reactions, therefore interest, therefore an audience, therefore profits. And now, in the age if instant information, a person can always find someone of like thinking to validate his, or her, radical beliefs..

    So to answer the OP, I don't have an answer. Guns are out there and they are not going away. Violent people are out there and they are not going away. Almost all people want to live their life the way they choose, and peacefully. Most people agree on what needs to get done, they just can't agree on how to do it. The media will continue stoking both extreme sides of any division for profit. I has been going on for a long time. I fear it may not end well.

    Thank you,
    Mr.Smith
    Last edited by Mr.Smith; 08-15-2019 at 01:13 PM. Reason: spelln

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  9. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Not only "possible" it was long used in formal training. "Aggressor" forces never had the headcount of the trainees. We amplified our effect by having several small fires going in, for example, a simulated Vietnamese village that was the target. As the opposing force approached, a few handfuls of 7.62 NATO BLANK ammo was pitched into each fire, and we melted back into our ambush positions and tunnels.

    Within a few minutes those rounds began cooking-off like loud popcorn, creating the impression the invaders had come under fire from several positions - which were not actually manned. As they tried to ID the source and return fire, we opened up from other, concealed, positions.

    Live rounds, rather than blanks, could still do injury - the firefighter case - but do not have anywhere near the velocity they would develop in a proper firearm's chamber and barrel.

    2CW
    There have actually been studies where loose ammunition was deliberately subjected to fire. Not surprisingly, it obeyed the laws of physics and the lighter casings traveled further than the heavier bullets. At the velocities and length of travel observed it was felt that while someone standing close might be bruised the velocity was insufficient to pierce skin.

    In the example you gave, the more tightly crimped/sealed military rounds will make a louder noise than many common civilian rounds.

    ========================================
    Americans have the right and advantage of being armed
    - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.

    -- James Madison, The Federalist Papers

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    I think the comment about marijuana is pretty damn amusing. I wonder if people condemning mj have ever used, or been around a user? IME, everyone I ever knew were completely relaxed when high. They were more concerned with getting some pizza and beer than hurting anyone. And as far as mj leading to harder drugs, or being a gateway drug, what about alcohol? One could argue alcohol leads to mj... How many people here enjoy a couple beers with their dinner, or a glass of wine.

    I think the problem has been (IMO) addressed already, it is the people, not the guns!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    I think the comment about marijuana is pretty damn amusing. I wonder if people condemning mj have ever used, or been around a user?
    Well.. lets' see. "Used?" Never even once. Mind, I'm only in my 75th year.

    "been around"? A 'nam vet? ANY 'nam vet? Yer joking, right?

    Personally made six arrests, each, two different occasions, plus a "onesie".

    One case, the stoned idiots were "hiding out" where they figured no one would look. Atop a storage bunker full of grenade, mortar and rocket rounds.

    Sat on courts-martial for six other cases - different perps.

    Sent in a decon-team to burn a fallow rice paddy to clear fields of fire for my machine gunners. 25 acres or so. Birds flying through the smoke a-purpose doing acrobatics as they got stoned.
    Seems the field wasn't just elephant grass. Included a close cousin of "Acapulco Gold" the troops next door had cultivated.

    One of those I had arrested was sentenced to 8 years in prison for major "dealing". He broke free of the MP's exiting the courtroom, ran out to the perimeter, climbed a guard tower, clubbed a guard with his own M-14, dropped down the "fire escape" (a rope!), charged back into the cantonment area firing bursts, full auto at all-hands.

    His own former CO emptied a magazine, .45 ACP ball, managed to drop him with a shot through the meat of the calf. Ran into him that night at the O club, said "F' fucks sake, Gary, I'm qualified expert, ambidextrous with a .45, and I'd not have been that G-D humane, Mike Foxtrot is at me with an M14, full-auto, I'm on him, body center mass, rapid!".

    Gary said "I was on him, body center mass, rapid! I'm just not as good a shot as you are, Bill. The leg was my only lucky hit!"

    We could get into the "accidental" death investigations, but I said it before.

    HUGE body of evidence, fifteen years, "nam war. It f**ks you up.

    MJ f**ks up judgement FIRST. That's why users defend it.

    Also why they are self-identified in advance as no longer qualified to hold an honest opinion.

    Let me make that clear: Users who defend THC HAVE NO CREDIBILITY WHAT SO EVER!
    CANNOT. By definition. Self-identified as unreliable.

    Not just on opinions, BTW. Everything.

    That's why they are not eligible for hire. Safety hazard to the still-healthy. And they lie.

    Binary. Situation. No. Shades. Of. Grey. That is not at all hard. It is simply the chemistry of THC.

    Plus those who would PROFIT off it, of course. An "industry" we call it now?

    Might wish the whole lot of THC druggies would simply emigrate to Indonesia, Malaysia, or the Philippines where they have a clear-eyed view and haven't bought the drug-culture sales pitch.

    Drug Laws Around the World: Death Penalty for Drugs - DrugAbuse.com

    Capital punishment for cannabis trafficking - Wikipedia

    And why not?

    Simple. The Muslim world has known hashish f**ks up a person, then a whole community, then an entire culture. They have known it for over a thousand years. And they are - yet-today clear examples of how it helped that community advance and prosper.... NOT!

    Seems those who do not learn from history are doomed to .....smoke it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Well.. lets' see. "been around"..

    Personally made six arrests, each, two different occasions, plus a "onesie".

    One case, the stoned idiots were "hiding out" where they figured no one would look. Atop a storage bunker full of grenade, mortar and rocket rounds.

    Sat on courts-martial for six other cases - different perps.

    Sent in a decon-team to burn a fallow rice paddy to clear fields of fire for my machine gunners. 25 acres or so. Birds flying through the smoke a-purpose doing acrobatics as they got stoned.
    Seems the field wasn't just elephant grass. Included a close cousin of "Acapulco Gold" the troops next door had cultivated.

    One of those I had arrested was sentenced to 8 years in prison for major "dealing". He broke free of the MP's exiting the courtroom, ran out to the perimeter, climbed a guard tower, clubbed a guard with his own M-14, dropped down the "fire escape" (a rope!), charged back into the cantonment area firing bursts, full auto at all-hands.

    His own former CO emptied a magazine, .45 ACP ball, managed to drop him with a shot through the meat of the calf. Ran into him that night at the O club, said "F' fucks sake, Gary, I'm qualified expert, ambidextrous with a .45, and I'd not have been that G-D humane, Mike Foxtrot is at me with an M14, full-auto, I'm on him, body center mass, rapid!.

    Gary said "I was on him, body center mass! I'm just not as good a shot as you are. The leg was my only lucky hit!"

    We could get into the "accidental" death investigations, but I said it before.

    HUGE body of evidence, fifteen years, "nam war. It f**ks you up.

    MJ f**ks up judgement FIRST. That's why users defend it.

    Also why they are self-identifed in advance as no longer qualified to hold an honest opinion.

    Binary. Situation. No. Shades. Of. Grey. That is not not hard. It is simple chemistry.

    Plus those who would PROFIT off it, of course.

    Might wish the whole lot of THC druggies would simply emigrate to Indonesia where they have a clear-eyed view and haven't bought the drug-culture sales pitch.
    I knew you were going to comment! LoL
    I've been to Indonesia and yes, definitely a different culture there! I told some co-workers that they pass out little "tickets" (on the flight I should add) stating drug trafficking is punishable by death. Singapore too...

    But that doesn't address alcohol. That will surely fuck up your judgement but no one talks about banning that... oh wait, we did once and it failed.
    Last edited by Mike1974; 08-15-2019 at 12:46 PM. Reason: more more

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    But that doesn't address alcohol. That will surely fuck up your judgement but no one talks about banning that... oh wait, we did once and it failed.
    Yah, well. I "horsetraded" an E5, drug addict and dealer I was CERTAIN of, but in my platoon-sized "Detachment" did not have the spare resources to nail.. to the CO of the larger, Company-sized unit adjacent, who DID have.. for an alcoholic he was about to kick out of the Army.

    Had one of my "brown shoe Army" adult conversations. Worked a treat. I ended up having rehabed an excellent man. Because with booze, one CAN DO.

    Besides, AS booze f**ks a person up, it ALSO degrades physical ability. Nerves and muscles. Get serious drunk, speech reflects that, one may wobble, go hostile, flail, stagger, trip, fall down, even fall asleep. And STINK of alcohol and it metabolic byproducts. Obvious, all.

    Anyone around a drunk soon KNOWS they are drunk.

    THC, OTOH, f**ks up the mind and NOT the muscles. Person high on THC is less obvious. May not draw ANY notice, may give NO warning.

    One truck driver had NO problem executing a right angle turn across the top bar of a "Tee" junction of two laterite roads. At over 50 MPH. BFD. Just turn the f*****g steering wheel, yah?

    The 5T LWB truck under him, load of GI's riding in the bed, OTOH was unable.

    Rolled the 5-ton and twelve of the occupants - over half - into a flaming wreck of BBQ'ed meat in a rice-paddy.

    Another time, three good friends on a patrol sat, smoked, philosophised, discussed that one of them thought the other two should just shoot him. World was, after all, a nasty place to be trapped in.

    Once all three agreed it was a good idea?

    They did exactly that. Full mag, 18 rounds, 7.62 ball, each, full-auto. At about six feet.

    Leavenworth for two. Closed-coffin funeral for one.
    Sort of "jellied", he was. You'd have to know the 7.62. Three dozen rounds of it. Up close and personal.

    Good friends, y'see. Just wouldn't be "right" to impersonally snipe the poor f***er from 700 or 800 meters away, would it? Too far to walk when f**ked-up, anyway. Besides.. they might miss. Pink-eyed thing, yah?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    People can change and possibly the thing to do is initiate a campaign extolling the virtues of recreational shooting and safety.
    Sure they've changed. And there's not one thing that you, or anyone else on this thread, have proposed that will make one nanobit of difference in the
    direction the US is headed right now. You can theorize all you want but none of these ideas will matter. The politics and the gun culture are here to
    stay. Extolling the ideas above are about the same as ol' nancy reagan's 'Just Say No' nonsense, when you have an entire industry striving to addict
    people to oxycontin. Much larger forces are in action then 'lets all just play nice.'

    But as mentioned, I applaud you for trying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Yah, well. I "horsetraded" an E5, drug addict and dealer I was CERTAIN of, but in my platoon-sized "Detachment" did not have the spare resources to nail.. to the CO of the larger, Company-sized unit adjacent, who DID have.. for an alcoholic he was about to kick out of the Army.

    Had one of my "brown shoe Army" adult conversations. Worked a treat. I ended up having rehabed an excellent man. Because with booze, one CAN DO.

    Besides, AS booze f**ks a person up, it ALSO degrades physical ability. Nerves and muscles. Get serious drunk, speech reflects that, one may wobble, go hostile, flail, stagger, trip, fall down, even fall asleep. And STINK of alcohol and it metabolic byproducts. Obvious, all.

    Anyone around a drunk soon KNOWS they are drunk.

    THC, OTOH, f**ks up the mind and NOT the muscles. Person high on THC is less obvious. May not draw ANY notice, may give NO warning.

    One truck driver had NO problem executing a right angle turn across the top bar of a "Tee" junction of two laterite roads. At over 50 MPH. BFD. Just turn the f*****g steering wheel, yah?

    The 5T LWB truck under him, load of GI's riding in the bed, OTOH was unable.

    Rolled the 5-ton and twelve of the occupants - over half - into a flaming wreck of BBQ'ed meat in a rice-paddy.

    Another time, three good friends on a patrol sat, smoked, philosophised, discussed that one of them thought the other two should just shoot him. World was, after all, a nasty place to be trapped in.

    Once all three agreed it was a good idea?

    They did exactly that. Full mag, 18 rounds, 7.62 ball, each, full-auto. At about six feet.

    Leavenworth for two. Closed-coffin funeral for one.
    Sort of "jellied", he was. You'd have to know the 7.62. Three dozen rounds of it. Up close and personal.

    Good friends, y'see. Just wouldn't be "right" to impersonally snipe the poor f***er from 700 or 800 meters away, would it? Too far to walk when f**ked-up, anyway. Besides.. they might miss. Pink-eyed thing, yah?
    Ya know thermite (Bill, that's ur name, yes?) I just don't even know where to start. I'm sure you'll 'half' quote this like some of my other post and start going all diarrhea of the mouth but..

    You are talking Viet Nam, probably the worst war in US history (for us).. did people do crazy things/get fucked up from it, um YA! (please don't turn this into a war tirade )

    You have a point about being drunk - it is very obvious, bbuuttt, being high is obvious too if you know the signs.

    And still no response about alcohol leading to stinky cigarettes/or not, or it's (completely by itself!) negative effects on people and society...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Ya know thermite (Bill, that's ur name, yes?) I just don't even know where to start. I'm sure you'll 'half' quote this like some of my other post and start going all diarrhea of the mouth but..
    Can't handle it, just log-off and go light-up.
    You are talking Viet Nam, probably the worst war in US history (for us).. did people do crazy things/get fucked up from it, um YA! (please don't turn this into a war tirade )
    It wasn't about the "war".

    The drug (and, oh, yes, alcohol problem as well) bit wasn't about the "war-war" of bombs, bullets, and blood side.

    The damage, and at the same time "lost opportunity" off it was just that we had such a HUGE "statistical sampling" by headcount involved right there under our nose and tried to HIDE the problem, both "in country" and as to its effects on communities when those who had been caught-up in it returned home.

    So.. put the "war-war" part entirely aside.

    For a period of fifteen years - almost a full "human generation" of, say 20-25 years, in span, there were several hundred THOUSAND folks of 18 to 25 years of age, plus a bit, older NCO's and Officers - at a time. Continuously involved in - call it an "experiment" rather than a war, if it sooths you, as far as the close exposure to more than one drug.

    There was valuable information in that experience.

    But we severely pissed it away with the denial of how severe the problem had become, how broad, and how badly it harmed the communities back home as each successive rotation carried their problems home with them.

    I say again "missed opportunity" to have "learned more, better" as a byproduct of war and politics..

    .., if only we had not been trying so hard to ignore it, and pretend it was all over and done with change channel and fagedabboudit..

    Now? As a society, we are having to learn from a new set of mistakes. All over again.

    Answers we already knew. Paid a terrible price to learn. Then hid.

    That was easily as dumb, and easily as wasteful as the war itself was.

    Because it was no longer f***ing-up, Vietnam, Laos, Kampuchea.

    It was f***king up our own communities and families.

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    It seems this thread has evolved into a tirade about how something needs to be banned to protect society from all the percived social ills it causes despite it not being the cause of the issues.
    More so the agenda being pushed by someone who's only experience with said item is to actively work to prohibit and punish it's users.

    This has taken an interesting turn, or some impressively meta level trolling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenton View Post
    It seems this thread has evolved into a tirade about how something needs to be banned to protect society from all the percived social ills it causes despite it not being the cause of the issues.
    More so the agenda being pushed by someone who's only experience with said item is to actively work to prohibit and punish it's users.

    This has taken an interesting turn, or some impressively meta level trolling.
    Yeah. Tragic, ain't it - punishment for harmful behaviour?

    Societies that thrive and survive tend to treat crimes against their societies that way. Even murder.

    Stupidity? Workin' on it.

    Solution may be freer access to drugs? Seems it would shorten the cycle-time the idiots remain in the gene-pool. We'll know eventually.

    It might not be soon enough, though. Less-impaired competitors tend to overwhelm more-impaired ones, even before they reach hard-fail.

    "Shift change" may already be underway.

    Immigrants, legal or otherwise, that actually have LOWER drug addiction percentages on average than the complacent and arrogantly addicted incumbents they are replacing. And work harder.

    Could it be the Democrats are actually on to something valuable, after all?

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    You are overlooking a point that should be obvious. People don't usually change their views that much and some of the posters here must have brains that are 30% calcium carbonate, but they die off and are replaced, often by generations with very different views. My sister was born in 1933, I was in 1935, so we grew up in the Jim Crow era. As we matured, we saw no reason that a black person should not be allowed to sit down in a restaurant and order and eat a meal as long as he or she minded their manners, didn't smell bad and paid the bill. The public accommodation laws went into effect almost without a ripple, I think largely because people like us approved. We were not going to get cattle prodded and tear gassed to put the legislation through, but neither were we going to resist it and if it came to a vote, we would vote in favor.

    We dashed home from school to argue about which radio program we were going to listen to. Don't underestimate programs like Wilderness Road, about a family on the road Daniel Boone cut into Kentucky. There were mom and pop, several children, and a black man, who might well have been a slave, although it was never discussed. He was given tasks and handled them well, was treated like one of the family. If you tell 5 year old minds every day to have regard for a black person, it is bound to make some synaptic links. Be that as it may, desegregation came easily for us.

    Attitudes about guns are being formed in 5 year old minds right now. Where they will come out is anyone's guess.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Attitudes about guns are being formed in 5 year old minds right now. Where they will come out is anyone's guess.
    Aye. Some days.. given those "five year old minds" of all chronological ages seem to make up about a third of the registered voters in this country, one might wish those as also had five-year-old BODIES were voting instead.

    DNC starts ordering candy by the railcar load, RNC is in deep doo-doo.



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    As to the original question, I'm skeptical that at the present level of knowledge it will truly be possible to prevent these mass shootings. While we know a lot about these individuals we don't know enough about the psychology involved to identify the handful who might actually do such a thing out of the rather large number who seem to share similar traits.

    If you predict every isolated, troubled young man is going to perpetrate a mass shooting, you would be wrong thousands of times.
    - Jeffrey Swanson, a professor of psychiatry at Duke University’s School of Medicine who studies the nexus between violence and mental illness.

    While "Red Flag" laws might seem like a good idea right now to many, I suspect they'll eventually either be found un-Constitutional or be abandoned after too many false positives and some failures to identify mass killers in advance of their acts.

    We live in a different world than the one I grew up in, which was a world where the kind of high profile mass killings we've seen in recent years were so rare as to be virtually unknown.

    We can't turn back the clock or put the genie back in the bottle, but I do think that if the public were better educated about the possible side effects of certain drugs and knew what signs to watch for at least some of these incidents MIGHT be prevented by seeking medical intervention for these individuals before they "go off the rails". As I understand it the greatest risk is when people try to take themselves off these medications without medical help, which can cause a peculiar form of psychosis that can lead to suicidal or homicidal impulses.

    I think even with that, some might slip through the cracks if there were no one who cared enough about the individual to notice the signs and seek medical intervention. But if it could even reduce the numbers it should be worth trying and the best thing we can do for now is demand that ALL factors involved in the creation of a mass shooter be examined and studied. While there are laws re medical privacy I think that they could be altered to allow release of medical records of a mass shooter AFTER they are either convicted or deceased during the act. Of course prior to conviction they would be entitled not only to a presumption of innocence but also to medical privacy.

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    If no guns it would be propane bombs or others.
    What do we do about the divide and intolerance of other views?
    This is at a fever pitch in government parties and the public.
    Who fuels this? Our elected officials seeking that 1 to 5 percent vote to get a high paying job?
    Where did we lose the reality and some tolerance of others?
    Is instant media a thing we can not handle yet? Right and Left were not so divided before it.

    Perhaps the net is to blame most of all
    .
    Certainly that was the opposite intention of the founders but here we sit.
    Bob

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    My contention is that most people are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

    If you get your information from the main stream news, you are following a red herring.
    Again, let us look at the Oklahoma City bombing. Because it was a test balloon for fooling the public. And because the public swallowed it hook line and sinker, it became a model for many subsequent operations.

    We have a problem all right, but it isn't crazed lone gunmen that own an AR-15, belongs to the NRA and hates minorities.

    OKC Bombing: The Forerunner to 9/11
    OKC Bombing: The Forerunner to 9/11 (Please Copy & Share) - Brighteon

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    So who is orchestrating all this? What is the purpose? Lone gunman are killing a bunch of people then being killed or committing suicide. They must have a strong motive to do something they know will end their lives. Some seem to have a religious motive, but not all.

    Your link will not download on my computer.

    Bill


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