What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 28
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  1. #541
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    My purpose was to stimulate ideas. Battlefield colors have worked well for a long time. How about a patch or flag system with various colors and the color of the day not announced until classes start? I understand that the presidential guards use several pins that are turned different ways each day.

    Another possibility would be badges with radio receivers that would respond to a coded signal and change color or pattern. A month's codes could easily be programmed into it so there would be no way for a shooter to know ahead of time what the code for the day was. This would be stored on a sim card like your cell phone uses that would be cheap and the badge would only be a little thicker than a normal one.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Until the extreme political divide in this country changes nothing of any substance will get done. Everything is politicized, when even the smallest of conflict arises Republicans jump on one side the Democrats the other. The NRA seems to be more extreme one way while the gun grabbers go more extreme the other. I must say I believe most gun laws are useless as criminals and the mentally deranged don't follow them. What I don't understand is how any one or any organization could be against red flag laws. The extreme on one side wanting no civilians to own guns and the other even thinks crazy people should have them. On the other hand some of the issues that gun grabbing liberals care about is laughable. People wanting to ban so called assault rifles get a lot of press. A lot of candidates use that as a big part of their platform. Do these people realize blunt objects kill more people yearly that all rifles combined? Also personal weapons as in bare hands and feet kill more yearly than rifles also. Some people get boiling mad about so called assault rifles being legal, most of those people would not know a Co2 pistol from a 9mm.
    I wouldn't expect the extreme political divide to disappear anytime soon. When you have people on one side claiming that the entire economic and social system is evil and must be destroyed and replaced with something radically different there is no common ground with the other side and never can be. This MASSIVE ideological divide can be seen in what may at first appear to be trivial issues but they are battles in the major war.

    As to red flag laws, they are a blatant violation of due process because they are one-sided and a secret tribunal as far as the subject is concerned. There is no chance to defend yourself against these allegations, which can be made by virtually anyone with no real proof required. If you are the subject of one of these your first notice is when police show up at your door to seize your guns. You are temporarily detained outside your home while the guns are removed and are then free to do as you will. If a person is truly so dangerous they need to have firearms forcibly removed they are probably too dangerous to be let loose.

    There are other methods if a person is truly considered dangerous. Many states allow for a temporary commitment of at least 24 hours for psychiatric evaluation. If the person is determined to be a risk to themselves or others they can be detained longer but at that point they can ask a court for review.

    And then there's the issue of what happens to the guns. If they are held at the local police department they may be locked in a room with piles of others, getting damaged in the process. If the room is damp they may rust. These are real issues and have already occurred in my state even before red flag laws. If instead the guns are transferred to a bonded warehouse they will likely be transferred to the books of that company at which time they are no longer your property. Even after you clear the legal issues there are problems getting your property back. Every transfer is treated the same as a new purchase and all federal rules apply, including paying transfer fees and any storage charges (which can exceed the value of the guns). If as in my state any of them were "grandfathered" because they were bought prior to more restrictive laws you can not get them back because it would be the same as a new purchase of a now prohibited item.

    No, none of us want crazy people to have guns but neither do we wish to be put at risk of this process because a disgruntled ex or vindictive neighbor chose to seek vengeance by making false claims enabled by bad law.

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  5. #543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    As to red flag laws, they are a blatant violation of due process because they are one-sided and a secret tribunal as far as the subject is concerned. There is no chance to defend yourself against these allegations, which can be made by virtually anyone with no real proof required. If you are the subject of one of these your first notice is when police show up at your door to seize your guns. You are temporarily detained outside your home while the guns are removed and are then free to do as you will. If a person is truly so dangerous they need to have firearms forcibly removed they are probably too dangerous to be let loose.
    From historical standpoint, this has already happened in the Soviet Union, especially in the 30s when there were little repercussion against false reports and system was overzealous in its pursuit of wrongthink. Everyone reported on everyone, and if you didn't report enough, that was a cause to investigate you.

    So in the 30s, it's well documented that cheating spouses reported their husbands/wives, disgruntled neighbors, even in workplace, it was common to report people to advance your career. A little dirt, made up accusations and your target just disappeared. No one cared to investigate or presume innocence, because that would label you as being soft on counterrevolutionaries and spies, and who wants that when your own underlings want your job.

    In today's climate, it's all too common to immediately accuse people of racism or # de jour, like #metoo and suddenly you got people ruining other people's lives without much of recourse when accusations prove to be false.

    As to red flag laws in action, specifically, wrongful seizures have been already made. There was one in the news literally yesterday. I expect this to continue and rise. We have an awful combination of culture of people acting without consequences and victimization of gun owners.

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  7. #544
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Pete, I like your civil nature, and hope that sometime you can view the video.
    I did view a lot of it. Some impressions:

    - Some points seemed valid. We do get played. Some worth considering.

    - Whole thing is hours long and chock full of just about every imaginable conspiracy and conspiratorial language.

    - The author's root contention that there were absolutely positively 8 Kennedy shooters struck me as ludicrous, including one popping out of a sewer grate? How do you cover up tracks of eight shooters for near six decades? Seems to me you'd need that many Jack Ruby's . . .

    - The perspective struck me as a little surprising to be embraced here. A sort of mash up of the Rothschild New World Order, return of the illuminati, and a socialist left the rich-are-behind-everything author.

    - IMO, the whole thing would benefit from an outline of all the many claims - and then a sort of Snopes-like inquiry into which ones were clearly true, clearly false, and unknown.

    I often wonder what leads people, like the author, to embrace so many conspiracies as if they were potato chips (you can't have just one). My tentative thought, based on personally knowing a few, is that they tend to be bright people -- and often really good in some field -- but with some chaos early in life. For example one is an incredible artist/craftsman, robust and likable guy, and likely among the world's two or three best at what he does. But he believes in most every conspiracy theory possible -- even ones that can be disproved by clear facts. Raise those facts and there's pause, pause (they're thinking) and a "Yes, but . . ." about some other conspiracy. Some large part of his intelligence, IMO, goes to adopting a world of conspiracies; perhaps as a sort of explanation why things have seemed so far out of control for himself. Real reason, far as I can tell, is that he was brought up in an utterly chaotic home (mostly the mother)?

    One other thing we know (from Kahneman and Tversky -- you could look 'em up) is that when both real and imagined events are put into a good "story" - their credibility goes up. Guys like the author are pretty good at that.

    Anyhow, be interested to see the list of claims in that video, if someone has done that, to better judge each on its merits. A quick Google found very little rational discussion of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    I really enjoy this topic because it has so many portals into the matrix.
    For those that think our educational system may provide the answer, I respond, you haven't been paying attention.

    We (Americans) spend more per student than almost anyone on the globe. And get abysmal returns for it. As planned.

    If you are not familiar with the foundations of our educational system, I suggest you take a look at a few of these.

    The Dark Intentions of Public Schooling
    YouTube

    The Origins of the American Public Education System: Horace Mann & the Prussian Model of Obedience

    https://youtu.be/HZp7eVJNJuw

    Public Schools, the Fixation of Belief, and Social Control
    YouTube

    Education For Obedience
    YouTube

    And a musical summary...
    Pink Floyd - Another Brick In The Wall
    YouTube
    1,000 thanks to you sir!!!

  9. #546
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    [QUOTE=Kurt Learning;3400961]
    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post

    I do not quote in partial for nefarious reasons, it just simplifies the portion I will address.

    Yes, I think that years of institutionalized learning made me think more like a marching minion than I might naturally have become. Still I was not a particularly good student and aggravated some of my teachers by questioning too often.
    When I was told that President Kennedy was shot by a Marine using a Carcano, I did not immediately question that. Though a few years of firearms experience later, I did. When I was told that the North Vietnamese attacked our Navy in the Gulf of Tonkin, I didn't question that either. I didn't even think to question Weapons of Mass Destruction.
    But by 9/11 things did not smell right, so I started to play closer attention. And having a job that allowed me the luxury of listening to the radio, I tried to seek varying opinions and not just those that supported my preconceived notions. But when I heard the first news release on the Ft. Hood shooting, I knew I was listening to propaganda and filtered news. The announcer declared that the attack was not a Muslim Terrorist, when he could not have known that, and methought he protesteth too much.

    When I retired a few years ago I decided to go back and examine my beliefs and challenge nearly everything. I think that nearly all of my teachers were very good, such that when I got to University, many of the courses were more like a review. I believed that I could trust math and the hard sciences to be unbiased, however I began to question some of the social sciences and the spin on history. That is where I could get some great differences of opinion, and test the stories with some concrete evidence.

    The Engineering Degree wasn't entirely my own idea, but more of an action to appease my parents who were afraid I was a drifter. And of course they were right. I am. And I enjoy it. That probably doesn't fit the stereotype of an Engineer. Life is full of cognitive dissonance if you are paying attention.

    Thank you for your sincere inquiry, I hope this answers your questions and I apologize if in doing so I have detracted from the original post.
    I hope that people will critically examine the evidence of my contentions as much as they might my credentials.
    Dude! Where have you been hiding?! I love your posts, your inquisitive mind, and your conclusions!

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    Turning back to the issue of armed teachers, IMO there is no need for special color tapes etc. if they are properly trained. The proper response when any police arrive is to place any weapons down, put your hands in the air, and announce that you are a teacher (or administrator).

    While you could never completely eliminate the risk of being accidentally shot by police an active shooter presents a far greater risk. IMO any opposition that can stop or even slow one down is likely to help. Brave individuals who confronted them bare handed have been shot down but in doing so saved many others. Even less than lethal weapons can be of help because ANYTHING that slows them down or disrupts them is likely to save lives. There are a variety of devices that exist today that could seriously disrupt an untrained person and might even disable them. We have to remember that these are life or death situations that happen quickly and elaborate plans are likely to fail. Even a fire extinguisher to the face is better than waiting to be slaughtered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Way too complicated.
    Just make all firearms and ammunition with electronic control.
    Establish-
    1- Exclusion zones where those arms cannot be operational.
    2- Deactivation modules carried by LEO’s to turn off weapons used by perps.
    3- Remarkably high fines and or prison terms for any arms in circulation without the “Peacekeeper” enhancements.

    We all get to keep our guns but there will be places you can’t have them just like now..
    I wish there were a "funny" mod on this forum. I sincerely hope you were making a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    I wish there were a "funny" mod on this forum. I sincerely hope you were making a joke.
    Perhaps he was joking but similar proposals have been seriously put forth in the past. Here are a few of the ideas floated today.

    Here's a quote from the first one.

    "Her early-stage device, gUNarmed, will use satellites to track a gun’s location and automatically jam the magazine when inside schools and government buildings."

    Another one wants to make "smart bullets" with cameras and microprocessors in them.

    These 5 Smart Gun Technologies Could Be the Future of Firearms in America

    Yardarm's New Smart Gun Technology Allows Owners to Control the Trigger Safety with an App - ABC News

    Gun control: NJ 'Smart gun' bill may get new life, but will it work?

    Will This Smart Gun Solve America’s Gun Problem?

    Fingerprint guns

    Note: Massachusetts abandoned the idea of fingerprint scanners at firearms retailers and instead issued each license holder a unique PIN number. Why? The fingerprint scanners were unreliable. That was in the safety and comfort of a store. Imagine in a crisis when your smart gun decides that you are not you. Maybe you could throw it at an attacker.


    Here are some more realistic viewpoints of smart guns.

    https://www.wired.com/story/smart-gun-fire-magnets/

    https://www.fool.com/investing/gener...ever-sell.aspx

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    Ok- this post I am serious about.

    “Perhaps he was joking but similar proposals have been seriously put forth in the past. Here are a few of the ideas floated today.”

    One of the things about arms regulation by a state is just what is deemed to be that weapon.
    This struggle of state vs individual rights and acts goes back to the Romans at least dealing with arms of that period.
    I see the current “firearm” debate somewhat miss representing on this point.

    The 2nd is NOT about guns but the right and need to preserve self and group autonomy.

    These highly mechanical chemical energy kinetic weapons will be relatively short lived in the long view.
    I don’t think anyone will take them from us, they will just be obsoleted and relegated to museums as the 19th century contraptions that they are.
    The class of arm that replaces them- impossible to say but whatever that is will still carry with it the salient features of the current ‘gun’ debate.
    And the “smart” tech available to control those future arms- again hard to say as I couldn’t venture a guess what physics principles it will be based on.
    These days I ALWAYS have a pen knife- not much but at least something.
    I wonder how long till our current crop of firearms are relegated to poor backup status.

    Tactical weenies will muse on the battle proven wisdom of “don’t bring a gun to a ??? Fight” when packing their EDC pack.

    Not much use to our current debate but I see the issue has legs.
    Arm control has been debated long before the advent of ‘firearms’ and will be so long after..

    I guess it’s a warning of sorts.
    Firearms enthusiasts shouldn’t be clinging to their favorite pistol “my cold dead hands”, but be spokesmen for what that weapon represents.
    That ‘right’ is what we are defending.

    Fire at will- that last paragraph has a opening I could drive a truck through...

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Rex TX

    "I haven't waded through this whole thread, but I'm sure someone has already quoted Robert Heinlein on the subject."

    Not yet, which quote? He had a lot of good ones.

    Bill
    "Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."

    -RA Heinlein

    I would add that those in favor of control want the means of that control solely to themselves.
    Last edited by Rewt; 08-20-2019 at 07:18 AM. Reason: forgot last quote mark

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  17. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
    Robert A. Heinlein
    That's the one. And those others are great. Thanks!

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  19. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rewt View Post
    "Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."

    -RA Heinlein

    I would add that those in favor of control want the means of that control solely to themselves.
    Nah, you must be wrong.

    "Every Communist must grasp the truth, Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party"
    -- Mao Zedong

    And also from the same 1938 speech:

    "All things grow out of the barrel of a gun. According to the Marxist theory of the state, the army is the chief component of state power. Whoever wants to seize and retain state power must have a strong army."

    And this:

    "The guns of the Russian Communist Party created socialism. We shall create a democratic republic. Experience in the class struggle in the era of imperialism teaches us that it is only by the power of the gun that the working class and the labouring masses can defeat the armed bourgeoisie and landlords; in this sense we may say that only with guns can the whole world be transformed."

    The shorter one sentence quote is from the book of his sayings, published later.

  20. #554
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    A society that has decided to be polite is a polite society. The Danes were some of the most violent folks ever, but they got over it. Personally, I think they removed a lot of violent genes during their 300 year crime spree. While they were off a-viking, the smart ones became arms makers and ship builders and stayed home where the girls were. They don't go armed and are extremely polite. (Remember Gordon B. Clarke is not a native Dane.)

    Studies of violent societies show that they will be violent with whatever is at hand, rocks, swords, guns or missiles. The number of assaults doesn't change much, only the mortality rate as weapons become more efficient.

    St. Louis has the highest murder rate in the nation but if you removed a certain area, the per capita murder rate would be low. The people who get in shootouts choose to get in them, or at least half of them do.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Ok- this post I am serious about.
    Let's see, where to begin...

    Firearms have been in use since about 1350, and continue to be improved and refined. No one has managed to make a practical personal laser weapon or practical personal railgun yet, but even if / when they do, firearms will continue to be at least as effective as they are now. Consider how England is struggling with knife violence. Knives have been in use for about 2.6 million years, are still in common use, and are still at least as deadly now as they were when invented. You cannot disable a knife with a computer chip, and even if you invent a knife that works that way, I can always make one the old fashioned way. Making a firearm that reliably disables under certain circumstances but reliably enables under others is very difficult and expensive. Even if you achieve it and mandate that all guns sold are like this, I can always disable the control or make my own gun from scratch without it. People would be "rooting" their gun just as they "root" phones to take control.

    In addition, giving the government the power to remotely disable everyone's weapons would negate the primary purpose of the 2nd amendment, and would open the opportunity for bad actors to hack and disable other people's weapons. Imagine a mass shooter who has a non-disableable gun and a wifi device that disables everyone else's weapons as they enter the area. It's just a really bad idea.

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    mhajicek,

    You are 100% correct about the enduring nature of the firearm. Not only do they date back hundreds of years but I contend that the "modern" firearm dates back to the late 1800s. The basic concept of the metallic cartridge has not changed since then. Propellants change, materials change (both for guns and the cartridges themselves), and the method of loading and extracting may change but the basics remain. A cartridge containing a bullet, propellant and primer is loaded into a chamber and is then struck with a firing pin, discharging the bullet.

    The major change is how the cartridge is loaded into the chamber, first manually and later from a magazine by manipulation of a mechanism, and finally by the discharge of the previous cartridge cycling the mechanism. At heart the cartridge firing machine is still what is was in the days when cartridges were first introduced.

    Cases change shape and sometimes materials (steel and aluminum as well as brass and even partially plastic). Bullets change shape and composition. The guns themselves change shape, methods of operation and materials used in their construction but there is nothing in a firearm of today that would unduly surprise a man from that era. The only thing that would probably genuinely surprise them would be the electronics and the lasers and illuminated sights they allow.

    I expect if we ever travel to Mars or another planet firearms may go along. Other than the possibility of being eliminated through political means I expect that firearms will be with us for at least several more generations.

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    And yet the debate has carried from long before the advent of firearms.
    It’s logical and understandable to apply it to what is known.
    We are all somewhat trapped in those times we live in.
    The principle codified in the 2nd however will outlast the era of the firearm for millennia.

    I like the “contraptions” as well as the next but see them as nothing more that a application of a right, not a right themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    And yet the debate has carried from long before the advent of firearms.
    It’s logical and understandable to apply it to what is known.
    We are all somewhat trapped in those times we live in.
    The principle codified in the 2nd however will outlast the era of the firearm for millennia.

    I like the “contraptions” as well as the next but see them as nothing more that a application of a right, not a right themselves.
    You are correct in that it is not a right to firearms, but rather a right to arms. Anything from a sharpened stick to an autonomous personal defense drone and beyond. There will be weapons invented that have yet to be conceived, and which will put the power of all existing weapons to shame. The difficulty is in figuring out how to keep the governments armed with such weapons in check while minimizing the damage an individual can do to society, and that difficulty increases with the power of the weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Way too complicated.
    Just make all firearms and ammunition with electronic control.
    Establish-
    1- Exclusion zones where those arms cannot be operational.
    2- Deactivation modules carried by LEO’s to turn off weapons used by perps.
    3- Remarkably high fines and or prison terms for any arms in circulation without the “Peacekeeper” enhancements.

    We all get to keep our guns but there will be places you can’t have them just like now..
    ...and that electronic control's not complicated ?

    You assume that that there are no electronic experts that can bypass that in a heartbeat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    My purpose was to stimulate ideas.
    Bill
    We got that, Bill. Loud and clear. Admirable, very admirable. How about the background
    checks that Trump just proposed?

    Oh wait, he's not proposing that anymore. All you folks can get off the fainting couch and get
    back to patting each other on the back about how horrible it would be to regulate gun ownership
    any incrimental bit more, because, for those who were not paying attention:

    It won't ever happen.

    So yep, you can put away the smelling salts, stop wringing your hands, and
    get back to being productive members of society. Nobody's taking your guns, today, or in the
    immediate future.


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