What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 29
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    I have no problem with background checks. The Brady law didn't bother me a bit in its original form. A few days delay may give someone time to cool off. What did bother me was Janet Reno's comment "It's a good start."

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Way too complicated.
    Just make all firearms and ammunition with electronic control.
    Establish-
    1- Exclusion zones where those arms cannot be operational.
    2- Deactivation modules carried by LEO’s to turn off weapons used by perps.
    3- Remarkably high fines and or prison terms for any arms in circulation without the “Peacekeeper” enhancements.

    We all get to keep our guns but there will be places you can’t have them just like now..
    Are you OK? Not hallucinating or anything? Right now, this fucking minute, there are 28 cities in Texas that can not access their own computer files unless they pay a ransom to a geek in bitcoins thru an untraceable account. Do you not believe that that this asshole or others like him cannot take over those wonder weapons you envision? And next nuclear weapon facilities disabled with guards holding useless pieces of hi tech bullshit? We'll get to keep our guns, they just won't work and we'll be slaves with with ugly pieces of plastic that we thought were weapons.
    A

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    It won't ever happen. ... Nobody's taking your guns, today, or in the immediate future.

    If that turns out to be true, it will be because us owners defeat the current generation of antis. It's not like there aren't a bunch of them in high office who don't want to take them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    I did view a lot of it. Some impressions:

    - Some points seemed valid. We do get played. Some worth considering.

    - Whole thing is hours long and chock full of just about every imaginable conspiracy and conspiratorial language.

    - The author's root contention that there were absolutely positively 8 Kennedy shooters struck me as ludicrous, including one popping out of a sewer grate? How do you cover up tracks of eight shooters for near six decades? Seems to me you'd need that many Jack Ruby's . . .

    - The perspective struck me as a little surprising to be embraced here. A sort of mash up of the Rothschild New World Order, return of the illuminati, and a socialist left the rich-are-behind-everything author.

    - IMO, the whole thing would benefit from an outline of all the many claims - and then a sort of Snopes-like inquiry into which ones were clearly true, clearly false, and unknown.

    I often wonder what leads people, like the author, to embrace so many conspiracies as if they were potato chips (you can't have just one). My tentative thought, based on personally knowing a few, is that they tend to be bright people -- and often really good in some field -- but with some chaos early in life. For example one is an incredible artist/craftsman, robust and likable guy, and likely among the world's two or three best at what he does. But he believes in most every conspiracy theory possible -- even ones that can be disproved by clear facts. Raise those facts and there's pause, pause (they're thinking) and a "Yes, but . . ." about some other conspiracy. Some large part of his intelligence, IMO, goes to adopting a world of conspiracies; perhaps as a sort of explanation why things have seemed so far out of control for himself. Real reason, far as I can tell, is that he was brought up in an utterly chaotic home (mostly the mother)?

    One other thing we know (from Kahneman and Tversky -- you could look 'em up) is that when both real and imagined events are put into a good "story" - their credibility goes up. Guys like the author are pretty good at that.

    Anyhow, be interested to see the list of claims in that video, if someone has done that, to better judge each on its merits. A quick Google found very little rational discussion of it.

    Let me thank you for your response. I know it takes time, effort and thought.
    And I want to respond to some of your observations, and add a little more to the mix.

    “Whole thing is hours long and chock full of just about every imaginable conspiracy”
    Yes it is, and this is why the CIA invented the term “Conspiracy Theory,” to discredit those that question the official account. And after half a century, despite Trump's promise, you will not be allowed to see the evidence connected with this event. Hide the evidence.

    “How do you cover up tracks of eight shooters for near six decades? Seems to me you'd need that many Jack Ruby's . . .”
    There were. Witnesses were dropping like flies. Anyone with a Kodak at Dealey Plaza was endanger of being snuffed.

    ”The perspective struck me as a little surprising to be embraced here. A sort of mash up of the Rothschild New World Order, return of the illuminati, and a socialist left the rich-are-behind-everything author.”
    This is exactly the place to discuss it. Machinists are basically fact oriented people. Either someone is behind these acts or they are not. The video exposes how very much they are. I can't help if that makes some people uncomfortable and contradicts the beliefs they were taught in government schools.

    ”IMO, the whole thing would benefit from an outline of all the many claims - and then a sort of Snopes-like inquiry into which ones were clearly true, clearly false, and unknown.”
    This is your job. As an American and a Patriot, you are to be active in the defense of your nation and not rely on someone else.
    I have presented my claims with evidence, and if you think they need to be critically reviewed, it is your job to do it. State your case.

    “My tentative thought, based on personally knowing a few, is that they tend to be bright people -- and often really good in some field -- but with some chaos early in life. For example one is an incredible artist/craftsman, robust and likable guy, and likely among the world's two or three best at what he does. But he believes in most every conspiracy theory possible -- even ones that can be disproved by clear facts. Raise those facts and there's pause, pause (they're thinking) and a "Yes, but . . ." about some other conspiracy. Some large part of his intelligence, IMO, goes to adopting a world of conspiracies; perhaps as a sort of explanation why things have seemed so far out of control for himself. Real reason, far as I can tell, is that he was brought up in an utterly chaotic home (mostly the mother)?”
    Purely a fabrication without a shred of supporting evidence. My experience leads me to believe that smart people question authority.


    'One other thing we know (from Kahneman and Tversky -- you could look 'em up) is that when both real and imagined events are put into a good "story" - their credibility goes up.”
    This is exactly what you government does. Someone was shot. It is tragic. We must stop this. Take away all the guns.

    “Anyhow, be interested to see the list of claims in that video, if someone has done that, to better judge each on its merits. A quick Google found very little rational discussion of it.”
    This is your job.
    You have questioned the evidence presented, but dismiss it without any research or effort. If you want to have any credibility in the discussion, you need to show me where I am wrong. I know that I make people uncomfortable, and that may make me a bad person, but that doesn't mean I am wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I have no problem with background checks. The Brady law didn't bother me a bit in its original form. A few days delay may give someone time to cool off. What did bother me was Janet Reno's comment "It's a good start."

    Bill
    As a Dealer that used to do 50+ shows a year, I can tell you that the gun laws deprived law abiding citizens of their rights to purchase a firearm.
    A family might take a few hours to travel to a gun show and a Father might wish to buy a lever action rifle like his Father had many years before. After filling out paperwork and being denied an immediate transfer, he might have to travel several hundred miles at a later date to pick up his purchase.
    What part of "Shall not be infringed," is hard to understand?
    I have denied many persons the purchase of a firearm because I feared they might use it for ill purposes, so it wasn't all about the money. And my standards were higher than those of the feds.

    Perhaps a card of good standing is in order. I do not like the idea of making law abiding people carry credentials, but there might be an advantage. With the card you could buy guns, ammo, vote, assert Constitutional rights and operate an automobile. Basically, it is a card that verifies you are an American and don't need to have your privates fondled just because you want to travel by airplane.

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    [QUOTE=Mike1974;3400735]
    Quote Originally Posted by [COLOR=#ff0000
    Kurt Learning[/COLOR];3400726]



    get the fuck out

    edit: quoting seems a bit off, ^ this is directed at kurt, NOT PeteM
    Once again, explain yourself.

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    [QUOTE=Kurt Learning;3402181]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post

    Once again, explain yourself troll.
    First of all, if you 'knew' this community, you would know I am not a "troll" but since you have asked twice now, apparently it upsets you. Second, you are the definition of a classic "conspiracy theorist". Your videos you linked as evidence are nothing but a hodgepodge of bullshit. Third, you are getting the pleasure of being one of the very few people I am, or have ever added to my ignore list. Have a nice day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Miranda View Post
    The public schools of America have become the indoctrinating arm of the Left. They are producing Left-leaning young people. This current rash of Democratic Presidential candidates is the first blush of what is coming in a couple of more decades and the Left knows it. Gun control measures will gain greater prominence. Unless Americans wake up and demand true change.

    My suggestion is that every community begin their own militia and that all voter age people have to train at regular intervals (with exceptions being made the same way there currently are to serving on jury pools). It would serve many functions. It would teach a great degree of civic responsibility. It would teach proper gun attitudes. It would take the pressure off the local police forces - as every citizen would now shoulder a measure of watching over and protecting their own community. Guns would become nothing more than a tool. Just like we have tools in our garage for specific purposes, and in our barns and in our kitchens, so too we have tools of defense and protection. And people would stop blaming the tools (or blaming the right "tool").
    Local communities are what it is all about. Start at the roots and work up.
    The True Story of The Battle of Athens (1946)
    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    As a Dealer that used to do 50+ shows a year, I can tell you that the gun laws deprived law abiding citizens of their rights to purchase a firearm.
    A family might take a few hours to travel to a gun show and a Father might wish to buy a lever action rifle like his Father had many years before. After filling out paperwork and being denied an immediate transfer, he might have to travel several hundred miles at a later date to pick up his purchase.
    What part of "Shall not be infringed," is hard to understand?
    I have denied many persons the purchase of a firearm because I feared they might use it for ill purposes, so it wasn't all about the money. And my standards were higher than those of the feds.

    Perhaps a card of good standing is in order. I do not like the idea of making law abiding people carry credentials, but there might be an advantage. With the card you could buy guns, ammo, vote, assert Constitutional rights and operate an automobile. Basically, it is a card that verifies you are an American and don't need to have your privates fondled just because you want to travel by airplane.
    Are you seriously suggesting taking the risk of selling a gun to a paranoid schizophrenic to save someone a few hundred miles of driving? You can't make that sort of evaluation in a few minutes conversation. I have personal experience with people who seemed perfectly rational when on their meds and were full blown insane when they went off. Their last episode may have been years before. Only a background check into old records would have shown that. I knew one who was diagnosed as acute paranoid schizophrenic in 1946 and it didn't show until the 70s.

    The card idea makes some sense, like a credit or Costco card that would be swiped for each purchase. Of course, the same bugaboo comes up, a dictator can cancel the cards of everyone he doesn't like.

    Re Scotti's comment about guns being basically the same since the late 1800s, I can buy ammunition for my Colt Single Action, .45 long Colt, made in 1880 from any gun store. It is a bit risky because it has a black powder cylinder so I don't shoot smokeless in it but I would if I really needed to. Likewise, the 12 ga Marlin pump shotgun my father got in 1898 shoots modern ammunition and will kill you just as daid as a new one.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Likewise, the 12 ga Marlin pump shotgun my father got in 1898 shoots modern ammunition and will kill you just as daid as a new one.

    Bill
    I am struggling with the math on this one. When was your dad born and when were you born?

    If your dad was say, 10 in 1898, and had you when he was 40 in 1928, that would make you 91 today... which seems odd but plausible?

    Not being argumentative, just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I am struggling with the math on this one. When was your dad born and when were you born?

    If your dad was say, 10 in 1898, and had you when he was 40 in 1928, that would make you 91 today... which seems odd but plausible?

    Not being argumentative, just curious.
    I thought he said something like he was in late? eighties somewhere in this thread or just on PM... if I am wrong I apologize 9100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I am struggling with the math on this one. When was your dad born and when were you born?

    If your dad was say, 10 in 1898, and had you when he was 40 in 1928, that would make you 91 today... which seems odd but plausible?

    Not being argumentative, just curious.
    Just a strung out family. My father was born in 1874 in Germany and came in here 1881 because his father didn't like Bismark. Low country German, he hated Prussians. My father married at about the normal time, raised a son, and was divorced, married my mother and I was born in 1935 in a house he built himself because the depression destroyed his savings. I am coming up on 84 shortly.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Are you seriously suggesting taking the risk of selling a gun to a paranoid schizophrenic to save someone a few hundred miles of driving? Bill
    No, but if the government wants to do background checks they need to get a whole lot better at it. They've had enough time.
    Last week I purchased a Mauser rifle and had to wait two days for my background check to clear. Mind you I had a FFL for modern firearms for 35 years and still retain my FFL for curios and relics.
    Would people be so understanding if when stopped at a routine road block, they were detained for 2 days to see if their driver's license was up to date?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Perhaps a card of good standing is in order.
    In MN you need to get a permit to acquire or a permit to carry in order to buy a firearm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Would people be so understanding if when stopped at a routine road block, they were detained for 2 days to see if their driver's license was up to date?
    The State of Minnesota has ruled such "routine" roadblocks to be unconstitutional. You can't search, interrogate, or deny someone their right to travel unless you have probable cause that a crime has been committed.

    It should be trivial to maintain a list of names of people who have been denied the right to arms. The gun shop should be able to punch in the full name and drivers licence number and get an immediate yes or no.

    I think people would be more accepting of universal background checks if the existing background checks did any good. Most of the mass shooters DID pass background checks in order to legally buy their weapons. The few who didn't, stole their weapons. There's also the option of black market purchases, and many felons do, or making your own, as is common in countries with total bans on civilian ownership. There are very few cases where a background check would offer any benefit. I and many others believe that infinitesimal pro does not outweigh the significant cons.

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    Let me tell you how that "card" idea works in practice. I have a Class A LTC (License To Carry) here in good old Massatootis. Have to undergo a full FBI background check every renewal including a full set of fingerprints.

    A cop who pulls me over can run the license plate and be informed that I have such a currently valid LTC along with drivers license and registration status. If I go into a gun store and want to buy a firearm they have to enter my license number and then have me enter my unique PIN on a keypad. That validates my license against the state database. THEN we begin to fill out the state and federal forms. THEN someone goes into a back room and enters data to run the federal background check. Finally when it comes back approved we can complete the sale.

    If someone wishes to buy a gun from another individual they must use a computer and log into the state's online FA-10 system. License and other information for both individuals must be entered, along with make, model, and serial number of the firearm. The information is submitted and if the sale is approved copies of the transfer form can be printed and the sale can go through.

    MEANWHILE, just a few miles away convicted felon number 1 makes a deal with convicted felon number 2. Money changes hands and the gun is handed over. The whole transaction takes a fraction of the time for a legal buy and if either is caught they can count on lots of breaks from the Criminal Justice System with some charges dropped and lenient sentencing on others.

    Despite this farce many politicians keep clamoring for more restrictions on us law-abiding gun owners and resist all demands to get tougher on armed criminals.

    That is the reality of "reasonable gun control" in practice. I can't for a moment believe that such a system copied at the federal level would be much different in practice. I wish more gun owners in states with looser laws would wake the f**k up and realize that WE, not criminals terrorists and crazies are the REAL targets of gun control and no matter how many hoops we jump through the animal trainers will always demand more until owning private firearms is the privilege of only a few wealthy and well-connected people.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Are you seriously suggesting taking the risk of selling a gun to a paranoid schizophrenic to save someone a few hundred miles of driving? You can't make that sort of evaluation in a few minutes conversation. I have personal experience with people who seemed perfectly rational when on their meds and were full blown insane when they went off. Their last episode may have been years before. Only a background check into old records would have shown that. I knew one who was diagnosed as acute paranoid schizophrenic in 1946 and it didn't show until the 70s.

    The card idea makes some sense, like a credit or Costco card that would be swiped for each purchase. Of course, the same bugaboo comes up, a dictator can cancel the cards of everyone he doesn't like.

    Re Scotti's comment about guns being basically the same since the late 1800s, I can buy ammunition for my Colt Single Action, .45 long Colt, made in 1880 from any gun store. It is a bit risky because it has a black powder cylinder so I don't shoot smokeless in it but I would if I really needed to. Likewise, the 12 ga Marlin pump shotgun my father got in 1898 shoots modern ammunition and will kill you just as daid as a new one.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    I wasnt talking about the recent events. Sandy hook and vegas both of which the official story has more holes than swiss cheese
    Some of the better videos on this topic have been banned from You Tube, raising questions about our First Amendment rights as well as our Second.


    Doc Film Sandy Hook Line and Sinker-New 2017 Documentary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    ....

    MEANWHILE, just a few miles away convicted felon number 1 makes a deal with convicted felon number 2. Money changes hands and the gun is handed over. The whole transaction takes a fraction of the time for a legal buy and if either is caught they can count on lots of breaks from the Criminal Justice System with some charges dropped and lenient sentencing on others.
    Where do these guns come from? They don't just fall from the sky.
    Is there any way to reduce this supply side? For sure there is enough inventory that it would take a long time but maybe we could chip away at it.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Are you OK? Not hallucinating or anything? Right now, this fucking minute, there are 28 cities in Texas that can not access their own computer files unless they pay a ransom to a geek in bitcoins thru an untraceable account. Do you not believe that that this asshole or others like him cannot take over those wonder weapons you envision? And next nuclear weapon facilities disabled with guards holding useless pieces of hi tech bullshit? We'll get to keep our guns, they just won't work and we'll be slaves with with ugly pieces of plastic that we thought were weapons.
    A
    Well said!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Where do these guns come from? They don't just fall from the sky.
    Is there any way to reduce this supply side? For sure there is enough inventory that it would take a long time but maybe we could chip away at it.
    Bob
    There absolutely is. Providing funding, backing, and personnel to effectively change the tide? That would require the courts to enforce the laws on the books and to the fullest extent.

    Take a look at some of the drug tunnels running from Mexico to the US. Weapons are smuggled as well as drugs.

    Most common “street” crime is committed with stolen guns.

    Or sold to criminals illegally by our own government (warning, this is not a conspiracy theory)


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