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  1. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    The brains, not just minds, of violent criminals are different than those of other people. I have hope that someday this will be rectifiable.

    Psychopaths' brains show differences in structure and function

    Criminal Minds Are Different From Yours, Brain Scans Reveal | Live Science

    That said, if such abilities are developed they bring the danger of governments altering their citizen's brains to make them conforming and submissive.
    Or make them more conformist and aggressive... Most governments, and many individuals, would really like the idea of half-rabid soldiers that are pathologically inclined to follow orders.

    Much like the general topic, government tinkering around in the noggins of the public is a slippery slope. Pretty much the only predictable outcome is that about 50% of the people will think any outcome is extreme and attempt to balance it with an equally extreme but diametrically opposed alternative.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Free speech does not necessarily mean accurate speech or complete speech giving all sides of a question.
    I wouldn't mind seeing stronger slander and libel laws. They seem to work in England. Saying stupid stuff in general that is not true is one thing, but lying about people should not be acceptable.

  3. #623
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    I wouldn't mind seeing stronger slander and libel laws. They seem to work in England. Saying stupid stuff in general that is not true is one thing, but lying about people should not be acceptable.
    Does this include "Conspiracy Theorist" when the facts clearly show it isn't a theory?

    Here in the US the Police can lie to any citizen with immunity.

    Scenario: Police stop a car full of likely candidates, coerces them into agreeing to cooperate and then asks, "Whose XYZcontraband did we find in the trunk?"
    They hadn't found anything, but were fishing for a free confession.

    Why is it those who have been entrusted to enforce the law feel that they are above the law?

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  5. #624
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post

    Here in the US the Police can lie to any citizen with immunity.
    True, and they do lie. A 17 year old girl was caught stealing instruments from her high school orchestra to pay for drugs. She was guilty, not an innocent being mistreated, but the cops questioned her without a lawyer present, then told her that if she signed a confession, she could go home. She signed and was promptly locked up. This was another step in an extremely troubled childhood, but does that justify lies by the police?

    There need to be libel laws. Sometimes unsupported gossip can have serious consequences. A couple I knew was engaged, the standard process, engagement ring, church wedding, etc. None of the bride's friends had spent more than a couple of evenings in my company, could hardly have claimed more that casual knowledge about me. Nevertheless, some of them took her aside and explained that they thought it was their duty to make sure she knew what she was getting into, some sort of three way relationship including a homosexual one between her husband to be and me. They could not have had any evidence because none existed. In the decade we had known each other, our main interests were girls, electronics, girls, flying, girls, motorcycles, and girls. I have no such tendencies and he never exhibited any but they presented it as an established fact. If she believed it, the prospective bride would have been justified in calling the wedding off, but she just laughed it off and went ahead. Nonsense like that can completely change someone's life and there should be legal recourse.

    Bill

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  7. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Does this include "Conspiracy Theorist" when the facts clearly show it isn't a theory?

    Here in the US the Police can lie to any citizen with immunity.

    Scenario: Police stop a car full of likely candidates, coerces them into agreeing to cooperate and then asks, "Whose XYZcontraband did we find in the trunk?"
    They hadn't found anything, but were fishing for a free confession.

    Why is it those who have been entrusted to enforce the law feel that they are above the law?
    Police being allowed to lie, and act in otherwise criminal ways, boils down to how the job performance of government prosecuting attorneys is measured. They are assessed on the number of successful prosecutions versus the number of cases tried, which sounds ok, except they also choose which cases they prosecute and which they don’t. They pursue cases that will be easy wins for them and count on judges following their “guidance” regarding how their decisions to prosecute are made. Judges were almost universally once prosecutors, so it’s a chummy situation.

    I honestly don’t know what a good alternative is, but I do know the way it’s done now is really bad. The default arrangement is an effectively closed loop, positive feedback system. Without intervention the system will always default to the system itself, which is why it’s so easy for people who can afford intervention (a good lawyer) to defeat the system and receive little to no punishment for the same crimes that send others up the river for decades. It’s a mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    True, and they do lie. A 17 year old girl was caught stealing instruments from her high school orchestra to pay for drugs. She was guilty, not an innocent being mistreated, but the cops questioned her without a lawyer present, then told her that if she signed a confession, she could go home. She signed and was promptly locked up. This was another step in an extremely troubled childhood, but does that justify lies by the police?

    There need to be libel laws. Sometimes unsupported gossip can have serious consequences. A couple I knew was engaged, the standard process, engagement ring, church wedding, etc. None of the bride's friends had spent more than a couple of evenings in my company, could hardly have claimed more that casual knowledge about me. Nevertheless, some of them took her aside and explained that they thought it was their duty to make sure she knew what she was getting into, some sort of three way relationship including a homosexual one between her husband to be and me. They could not have had any evidence because none existed. In the decade we had known each other, our main interests were girls, electronics, girls, flying, girls, motorcycles, and girls. I have no such tendencies and he never exhibited any but they presented it as an established fact. If she believed it, the prospective bride would have been justified in calling the wedding off, but she just laughed it off and went ahead. Nonsense like that can completely change someone's life and there should be legal recourse.

    Bill
    Hope she's not disappointed.
    H

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    I understand that personal lies can hurt individuals, and lying Cops, Prosecutors and Judges can hurt communities, but my concern is with Federal Officials that lie to the public to take away their rights and enforce unlawful policies.
    I believe that 9/11 is relevant because it is a great case study for how the public is deceived into surrendering their rights. The Patriot Act was possibly the greatest infringement upon Americans rights in our lifetime.

    This is the official story, and when searched on You Tube by it's exact name, is buried on page five. You should ask yourself why.
    9/11: A Conspiracy Theory
    YouTube

    If you want to stop gun violence, you have to know who is lying to you, and why.
    Crazed lone gunmen are not your biggest threat.

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    I was told that the police can lie to a "Suspect" because a SC decision said so.

    Now, my lying to them is so immoral that they can hang a felony on me, unless I'm a famous politician, then it's quickly forgiven and forgotten, even hushed up.

    Even if there is no felony they might be able to frighten me under extreme duress into telling lies about some other innocent person, more grist for the mill, and having a job in the future is, after all, the only true job of government workers.

    American justice.

    If I were a police officer my time "On the job" would end the moment someone told me to lie as part of my job.
    So who is immoral? Having said all that I must add that I support Police, there must be many who are honorable even if the system isn't.
    Anyone who disagrees with that and has an imagination should use it to imagine a world without laws, or law enforcement, because as we should know from the many gun rights infringement laws, laws that aren't enforced are only levied against the law abiding, their rights are diminished, the criminals and whack jobs couldn't care less.

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    A St. Louis police officer who was a pretty good guy told about trying to get a confession to a robbery. He told the suspect that he knew he had committed the robbery and they also thought he had killed a wino they found dead in an alley. The idea was to make him admit the robbery but not the greater crime. After some hours of going over and over it, the suspect admitted the robbery and that he had killed the wino, too. How good is a confession to a crime that didn't exist? Under that sort of pressure the human mind goes through some strange gyristics.

    Bill

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    If you want to stop the shootings, make the government tell the truth.
    Your problem isn't lone gunmen.

    Wolfgang Halbig. Marine, State Trooper, School Administrator and the man that wrote the safety procedures for school.
    If you are not familiar with him, you are missing some relevant information.

    And again, if you type in the exact name of the You Tube video, it isn't even on the first page of choices. Why does You Tube bury it down to #33? These are the questions you should be asking.

    Florida School shooting with Wolfgang Halbig

    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    If you want to stop the shootings, make the government tell the truth.
    Your problem isn't lone gunmen.

    Wolfgang Halbig. Marine, State Trooper, School Administrator and the man that wrote the safety procedures for school.
    If you are not familiar with him, you are missing some relevant information.

    And again, if you type in the exact name of the You Tube video, it isn't even on the first page of choices. Why does You Tube bury it down to #33? These are the questions you should be asking.

    Florida School shooting with Wolfgang Halbig

    YouTube
    I am not being critical of you, but do you have ANY sources that are not Youtube...

    Maybe I am just old fashioned, but to me, as soon as someone posts YouTube as a source of information, I immediately write them off. Youtube is not a credible source of information. Your citing it as if it is a well researched and cited piece work?

    Similarly I read that some people are citing wikipedia as a credible source?

    If you want to provide information regarding the topics you are discussing, I am all ears. For credible, verifiable sources. Not something that someone threw together in their basement who is neither verifiable as an identity, nor citable as a source... ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I am not being critical of you, but do you have ANY sources that are not Youtube...

    Maybe I am just old fashioned, but to me, as soon as someone posts YouTube as a source of information, I immediately write them off. Youtube is not a credible source of information. Your citing it as if it is a well researched and cited piece work?

    Similarly I read that some people are citing wikipedia as a credible source?

    If you want to provide information regarding the topics you are discussing, I am all ears. For credible, verifiable sources. Not something that someone threw together in their basement who is neither verifiable as an identity, nor citable as a source... ?
    Amen! And especially worse when all they are doing is interviewing "experts" who themselves have no evidence or proof. If they had some documents with signatures/photos whatnot... maybe...

    At least with wikipedia you can quickly look and see what, if any, references they are using, for example -

    Alabama Centennial half dollar - Wikipedia

    ^ bottom of the page (not saying this is or isn't credible), just wanting to note it is easy to get some names and stuff to do your own research if so inclined...

    Also this -
    wiki.jpg

    (click to see)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I am not being critical of you, but do you have ANY sources that are not Youtube...

    Maybe I am just old fashioned, but to me, as soon as someone posts YouTube as a source of information, I immediately write them off. Youtube is not a credible source of information. Your citing it as if it is a well researched and cited piece work?

    Similarly I read that some people are citing wikipedia as a credible source?

    If you want to provide information regarding the topics you are discussing, I am all ears. For credible, verifiable sources. Not something that someone threw together in their basement who is neither verifiable as an identity, nor citable as a source... ?
    In addition , Who has 47 minutes to piss away listening to two assholes blathering about everything but the subject at hand. I don't give a shit about his stetson hats or any other BS.
    I

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    I believe that 9/11 is relevant because it is a great case study for how the public is deceived into surrendering their rights. The Patriot Act was possibly the greatest infringement upon Americans rights in our lifetime.
    At the time that act was passed some suggested it was called that because the police state measures enacted would someday make it possible to round up the REAL patriots, those who defend the idea of the United States of America as a sovereign country instead of just a cog in a global New World Order.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    If you want to stop gun violence, you have to know who is lying to you, and why.
    Crazed lone gunmen are not your biggest threat.
    Statistically, they are not even on the radar. I have a greater chance of being killed by a stray bullet if some gangbanger fires at a rival and misses, and that risk is itself minor. A greater danger, although still miniscule is being hit by a stray bullet fired by a cop.

    Far more common and real: Accident, illness, and medical malpractice.

    Also, any of you have an idea how many die in the U.S. each year from a reaction to insect stings?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Also, any of you have an idea how many die in the U.S. each year from a reaction to insect stings?
    Not even going to wait for a reply. Lets ban scorpion, wasp, fire ant, and red harvester ant stingers now. Boy, those guys have caused me a lot of pain!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    I understand that personal lies can hurt individuals, and lying Cops, Prosecutors and Judges can hurt communities, but my concern is with Federal Officials that lie to the public to take away their rights and enforce unlawful policies.
    I believe that 9/11 is relevant because it is a great case study for how the public is deceived into surrendering their rights. The Patriot Act was possibly the greatest infringement upon Americans rights in our lifetime.

    This is the official story, and when searched on You Tube by it's exact name, is buried on page five. You should ask yourself why.
    9/11: A Conspiracy Theory
    YouTube

    If you want to stop gun violence, you have to know who is lying to you, and why.
    Crazed lone gunmen are not your biggest threat.
    Also I seem to remember that the patiot act was written well before 911. It was voted on immediatly after and it is thousands of pages long. Pre planned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I am not being critical of you, but do you have ANY sources that are not Youtube...

    Maybe I am just old fashioned, but to me, as soon as someone posts YouTube as a source of information, I immediately write them off. Youtube is not a credible source of information. Your citing it as if it is a well researched and cited piece work?

    Similarly I read that some people are citing wikipedia as a credible source?

    If you want to provide information regarding the topics you are discussing, I am all ears. For credible, verifiable sources. Not something that someone threw together in their basement who is neither verifiable as an identity, nor citable as a source... ?
    Thank you for a genuine expression of concerns. And I suspect that others may have the same thoughts.

    I share your concerns and especially with Wikipedia, where the content is more easily edited by the unscrupulous.

    When I research a topic, I like to bookmark the You Tube videos that interest me, so that they can be reviewed and shared later.
    Now if I were to simply state the my beliefs, I would be personally attacked. So I like to present an expert speaking in his own words.
    In days of old, Kings often killed the messenger if he brought bad news.
    And this is what you are doing here.
    As for “credible, verifiable sources,” Wolfgang Halbig is one of the leading authorities on the subject.

    Too, I have to accept that some people are more influenced by emotion than logic. This is how we get such hyperbolas as, “If it saves just one child, every one in America should give up their Constitutional rights.” Discussions about the 2d Amendment are especially prone to that pitfall.

    But in the broader sense, none of that matters.
    It wouldn't matter what evidence I presented if your mind is closed to my ideas.
    And if you have a logical reason to disagree with what I, or Wolfgang, have presented you need to address that subject. So far the content of my You Tube videos hasn't been questioned or even discussed.

    If you cannot, then you will join the ranks of those that don't like what I say and will ignore what I present.
    The very root of “ignorance” is ignore.

    It is not difficult for me to treat your views with respect, but this topic is so important to me that sugar coating the arguments does it a disservice.


    10.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Also I seem to remember that the patiot act was written well before 911. It was voted on immediatly after and it is thousands of pages long. Pre planned.
    So true.
    My argument isn't that the Patriot Act was a response to 9/11 as much as 9/11 was necessary for the passage of the Patriot Act. Just as the Lone Gunmen shootings are necessary for the passage of gun control laws that have been written long ago.
    So far, “reasonable compromises in legislation” have enabled them to establish a large data base of who owns what.
    Next they will need to know about the pre-1968 firearms. In the future, you will have to disclose these if you wish to use them for hunting. And hunting with any firearm not listed on your license will be a violation. Chip, chip, chip. They are patient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    In addition , Who has 47 minutes to piss away listening to two assholes blathering about everything but the subject at hand. I don't give a shit about his stetson hats or any other BS.
    I
    Foul language is no substitute for learning, but it is easier to disperse.
    Stay on your treadmill Gerbil. Education takes more time than you are willing to devote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    So true.
    My argument isn't that the Patriot Act was a response to 9/11 as much as 9/11 was necessary for the passage of the Patriot Act. Just as the Lone Gunmen shootings are necessary for the passage of gun control laws that have been written long ago.
    So far, “reasonable compromises in legislation” have enabled them to establish a large data base of who owns what.
    Next they will need to know about the pre-1968 firearms. In the future, you will have to disclose these if you wish to use them for hunting. And hunting with any firearm not listed on your license will be a violation. Chip, chip, chip. They are patient.
    That is exactly the case. Most of these bills have been around in one form or another for years, just waiting for the "right" moment.

    The "news" media do their best to create such a moment by putting appropriate spin on shooting incidents. Ever notice how some events disappear quickly from the news cycle while others linger? What usually happens is real reporters from smaller outlets dig into the story and reveal details that conflict with the "right-wing, lone wolf, angry white male" theme. In one recent school shooting the alleged shooters were a pair of LGBT types. Another incident involved a black man with a lengthy criminal record. The Dayton shooter was outed as an Antifa supporter.

    In a similar vein a shooting at a black church was portrayed as having been done by a "white supremacist". What was kept from the public was that the church was very anti-LGBT in their outlook, and that was well known.

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