What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 43
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  1. #841
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    What a crazy thread. Interesting take, seeing the best and brightest in manufacturing on gun control.

    I’m sitting on the Jon, might as well join the bickering.


    The incredible amount of communication enabled by the widespread use of cell phone applications and “social media” is staggering. There is no doubt it has many corruptions, and I’d bet there’s someone pulling the strings on what you see, how you see it, and what it convinces you to do. I have to believe said puppeteers are just as conflicted as our politicians on what’s right and what’s wrong.

    Call me a conspiracy theorist, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Was just looking at reddit; seems to show you only what is “most popular” or “most liked.” Where is the validation of this vote? There isn’t one, and that’s perfectly legal. All this internet stuff; YouTube, google, Facebook; they not only have a significant controlling share of the loudest voices, but the ability to communicate with said factions in an instant AND make it seem like that’s just “what everyone thinks.” It’s such a global epidemic that there is no way to regulate it, much less understand its effect.

    I wonder when they’ll cash it in; maybe a “Hash-tag ban all guns” initiative takes hold and one day the entire world is opposed to guns. They melt them down in giant piles and make criminals of people who simply don’t believe in the same thing. Maybe the world gets better, maybe not.

    I’m more worried about the next steps. Regardless of the general dislike for politicians, there is a careful vetting process for their instatement in every country. If the people I’m saying control public opinion in such a way really do exist; how the hell do we know they have our best interest? Beyond that, what makes them accountable for mistakes? By that point, gun control will be lower on the list of things to worry about.

    The pen is mightier than the sword, and some crazy bastards have got control of anyone who’s got these little electric lights in the palms of their hands. This thread has a lot of views and a lot of replies, but guess what opens up first when I open reddit? A post about a certain flavor of Pringle’s and just below it another post telling me about how Trump is the antichrist. I certainly don’t have time to read every post here, even with an invested interest. It only took me a few seconds to see those reddit headlines. It doesn’t matter how smart you are or valid you point is if it’s pasted over by something else.

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  3. #842
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Washington Post says 602 this year . . . .
    We can agree that too many of our cops kill unarmed citizens. But if you're going to make points, try to get the facts within a solar system or two of right.

    What you said is "the fact is, they (cops) murder more people than everyone else combined." . . . . For that to be true cops would have to murder something like 14,000 people (varies some) each year. Not 602 as are listed in the police shootings database cited by the Washington Post or (you say) the Guardian's 2x higher guesstimate.

    And that 602 includes all shootings -- it's a shootings database. While a good many of the citizens killed are innocent and unarmed, merely looking dangerous to some trigger-happy (more likely fearful or raging) cop, an even larger number are neither innocent or unarmed. Of those 602 almost none are judged unjustified homicides -- more likely should be.

    Problem to be solved? Yes. A problem that fits your description? Not even close.

    We have plenty of problems to solve. And step #1 is getting the facts right.

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    From the early sixties, here is a list of based on the book "the Naked Communist", I would look at who overthrew the Tzar and is there any connection to those in control of big business in USA striving to meet these "goals":

    The Communist Takeover Of America - 45 Declared Goals

    The complete list is here as read into congressional record in 1963:

    THE NAKED COMMUNIST: 45 COMMUNIST GOALS | FLOW OF WISDOM(R) | SEAN ANTHONY

    some highlights:


    ""15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

    17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

    18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

    20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.

    21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

    24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

    25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

    26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

    27. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

    28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

    31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

    32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

    37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

    38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

    39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

    40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

    41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.""


    If this is a list of goals I would have to give credit to those working to achieve them, NOT because I agree with them, because of the amount of success they are having making them happen here.

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    One difference between now & 40 years ago when mass shootings were rare is the spread of liberalism in schools and the media. Liberals do not preach personal responsibility, it is always someone or something else's fault. A good example is their coverage of the death of MLB pitcher Tyler Skaggs.

    Here is the family statement posted all over the place:

    "That is completely out of character for someone who worked so hard to become a Major League Baseball player and had a very promising future in the game he loved so much," the family said less than two hours after the coroner's report was made public. "We will not rest until we learn the truth about how Tyler came into possession of these narcotics, including who supplied them."

    No blame here for the guy who had Oxycodone, Fetanyl and enough alcohol in his system to be legally drunk.



    Also the news media is calling him another victim of the opioid crisis. He is a victim of his own actions not someone inanimate drug or whomever supplied him. Anybody with a brain knows Fetanyl is more dangerous than heroin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    One difference between now & 40 years ago when mass shootings were rare is the spread of liberalism in schools and the media. Liberals do not preach personal responsibility, it is always someone or something else's fault. A good example is their coverage of the death of MLB pitcher Tyler Skaggs. . .

    . . . He is a victim of his own actions not someone inanimate drug or whomever supplied him. Anybody with a brain knows Fetanyl is more dangerous than heroin.
    FWIW, the vast majority of those liberals I know and who you seem to despise are big on personal responsibility. They have their kids playing sports, hitting the books, looking for an education. They put in the work to finish college, maybe earn an advanced degree, get good jobs, work 50+ hours a week, start companies, get married, have a couple kids, save for their education, pay taxes, get health insurance, don't commit crimes, volunteer in civic organizations, etc. etc.

    What they do seem to have is a bit more experience with people of other backgrounds (often living in urban areas, where that's the norm) and a bit more sympathy for those they've met as decent people, not having quite the background, luck, or opportunity they had in life. Their first reaction might be "too bad -- wonder if we can fix that?" rather than "the asshole deserved it." A different take on personal responsibility.

    There is a segment of our population that doesn't much care about personal responsibility or politics. And you'll find them poorly raised by absent, alcoholic, self-obsessed, addicted etc. parents in of all colors. White, black, and brown, In gang-infested urban ghettos, with absent parents in suburbs, maybe meth cooks for parents in rural shacks and trailer parks. Most of those folks don't even care think about issues and candidates or even vote. Do we call the ones in cities "liberals" and the ones in rural America "conservatives?"

    As for someone who always thinks problems are someone else's fault, wouldn't that be "conservative" Donald Trump, liar-in-chief?

    As for the dead baseball player to "prove" your assertion, might be too early to call.

    His parents think someone, maybe a team staffer, must have given him a mix of stuff to take, maybe urging it on or not disclosing the contents, and it wasn't all his fault. Maybe. He got it from somewhere. Rejecting reality when their kids screw up is what parents seem inclined to do. More likely, as you say, he made a very bad choice. Maybe in a month or so we'll better know the truth and you can come back and blame it on him being a liberal. My guess? His politics, if any, had pretty much nothing to do with it.

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  11. #846
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    Bill's bolt action .22 has a monthy insurance cost of ten dollars. The AK wannabe is $10K per year
    So you advocate that only the wealthy should have the means for self defense?



    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    There are many people who don't like guns and want them all outlawed. Ignoring this view is silly and non-productive.
    Many people don't like or are afraid of dogs. I walk mine off leash but make them lay down and do show me your belly around people who may feel this way.
    I respect their views and the feeling of a threat.

    One thing many gun owners could do is try to understand and address the fears of non-gun owners. It's my right is not gonna work.
    Bob
    Ok, I'll do the equivalent to what you do with your dog. If you're afraid of my gun I'll promise not to shoot you with it. Unlike your dog, my gun cannot take violent action on its own. What will you do when your dog does what other dogs, completely peaceful up until that point, have done and defies your will and bites a little kids face off?


    Quote Originally Posted by seiner View Post
    Also Ive never understood "patriots" that need guns to "Defend" themselves from the lawful government of our country.
    If you think our government is lawful you need professional help.


    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Be prepared to be lambasted as you called the magazines "clips". It's one of the things that the "real" [sarcasm] gun owners are very fussy about.
    Be prepared to be lambasted if you call endmills "drill bits". It's one of the things that the "real" [sarcasm] machinists are very fussy about.

    Seriously, if you can't learn the proper terms you should expect your opinions to be ridiculed. We will not accept gun laws written by those who believe a barrel shroud is a "shoulder thing that goes up".

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    I was trying to find something and tripped over this gem

    Scott, you are wrong

    the murder rate is as low as it has been in your avowed lifetime. Murders are just as rare as the day you were born, and more than likely much, much rarer than when you were able to vote


    this is the myth that seems to drive the right, we are in the middle of some kind of crime wave.

    false

    property crime is slightly higher than say, 1960, but murder is level, larceny, level

    it is simply your fear that is driving you, not objective facts
    It isn't fear driving ME. I'm not one of those screaming for more laws.

    YOU are one of the people trying to promote fear by suggesting that guns in private hands somehow promote crime and mass murder. I'm simply pointing out what so many try to gloss over which is that black on black violence is the largest part of why the U.S. murder rate is so high and why "mass shootings" appear so common.

    It's time to expose that nonsense about "angry white guys with guns" being the greatest threat to America. Here's a look at those "angry white males" the left keeps ranting about.

    mass-shooters-2019.jpg

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    Just read a newspaper account of a west Texas sheriff that fired on a white pick up when the truck that was being pursued was a different color, model, as well as different license plate. Justification for shooting was the white truck made an evasive maneuver. The lane change was required by Texas law, you must change lanes or go around a stopped police car 20 miles below the posted speed.
    The sheriff hit the innocent victim's truck 10 times with a full auto burst from his AR style rifle, wounded the driver collapsing both his lungs and injuring his liver. Minor injuries according to the sheriff.
    The real perp passes by 30 seconds later with a police vehicle in pursuit.
    Sheriff later said that he would change nothing if the same circumstances occurred again.

    Talk about someone who should have his weapons confiscated! Good thing he was shooting .223 ammo or he could have really hurt someone.

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    Cop shoots at random cars because he was bored. Keeps his job.

    Claiborne County deputy still on duty after firing gun into I-75 traffic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I'm simply pointing out what so many try to gloss over which is that black on black violence is the largest part of why the U.S. murder rate is so high and why "mass shootings" appear so common.

    mass-shooters-2019.jpg
    And a lot of them are killing each other over controlling territory to distribute drugs. The drugs that a good portion of pass through our 2,000 miles of leaky border with Mexico. The cartels have a presence all throughout the USA. A lot of the left even want that border to leak even more. If you think the murder rate in the USA is high try looking up the murder rate in Mexico it is over 4 times what it is in the USA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    Just read a newspaper account of a west Texas sheriff that fired on a white pick up when the truck that was being pursued was a different color, model, as well as different license plate. Justification for shooting was the white truck made an evasive maneuver. The lane change was required by Texas law, you must change lanes or go around a stopped police car 20 miles below the posted speed.
    The sheriff hit the innocent victim's truck 10 times with a full auto burst from his AR style rifle, wounded the driver collapsing both his lungs and injuring his liver. Minor injuries according to the sheriff.
    The real perp passes by 30 seconds later with a police vehicle in pursuit.
    Sheriff later said that he would change nothing if the same circumstances occurred again.

    Talk about someone who should have his weapons confiscated! Good thing he was shooting .223 ammo or he could have really hurt someone.
    That's the thing that's really puzzling about the gun control crowd. On the one hand they rant about police and military and suggest Trump is a Nazi who will refuse to leave office and institute a fascist state. Then they work towards a goal that only government should have guns and ridicule those who suggest the Second Amendment was about having the means to resist tyrants.

    Meanwhile, for several decades now more and more government agencies are acquiring serious weaponry and training personnel in SWAT type tactics. They have in effect become part of a huge standing army.

    The only conclusion I can come to is that the hardcore left intends to take control of government in the near future and in that case having a disarmed citizenry and a massive supply of AGWs (Armed Government Workers) would make control easier so they can impose their radical changes on society.

    Suggest that a man is still a man even if he thinks he's a woman? Gulag
    Criticize a member of a protected class? Gulag
    Resist ANY imposition? Gulag

    Yeah it CAN happen here. There's no magic, either in the Constitution of our "democracy". All there is is the willingness of people to fight, and to expose certain things while we still can. Freedom is NOT free! It never was and never will be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    . . . The only conclusion I can come to is that the hardcore left intends to take control of government in the near future and in that case having a disarmed citizenry and a massive supply of AGWs (Armed Government Workers) would make control easier so they can impose their radical changes on society. . . .
    Geez, Scottl, that's the only conclusion you can come to? That's where your imagination inevitably leads?

    Far as I can tell this "hardcore left" you fear hopes to win an election in a couple years with someone like Bernie as the top vote getter. It would be a long shot, IMO, if they don't elect someone closer to the center. What with "radical" changes like Medicare as an option for all citizens, thinking Denmark isn't a hell hole, and planning to raise taxes instead of just putting the debt on national credit cards like the current administration. Heck, even most Democrats aren't convinced. Amazing, though, that they've become the comparative fiscal conservatives between two parties pandering to their bases.

    You really think Bernie has been plotting all these years as the Senator from Vermont to send storm troopers (Vermont State Police??) into your home?? Or just want to be ready to start "voting" with bullets in the remote case someone like Bernie wins and we get something really terrible like health care for all our citizens?

    If we manage to find middle ground, there's a super good chance we get to keep all of our Constitution and it's 1st, 2nd, 3rd . . . Amendments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    FWIW, the vast majority of those liberals I know and who you seem to despise are big on personal responsibility. They have their kids playing sports, hitting the books, looking for an education. They put in the work to finish college, maybe earn an advanced degree, get good jobs, work 50+ hours a week, start companies, get married, have a couple kids, save for their education, pay taxes, get health insurance, don't commit crimes, volunteer in civic organizations, etc. etc.
    I don't know about your liberals, but some that I know, who do exactly the same things but a bit of twist once you start looking closer:

    1. They advocate reducing violence while playing sports. No pushing during futbol. Everyone is a winner. Participation trophies.
    2. They study left leaning books and media that portray tyrants like Lenin and Che as saints.
    3. They go to college to earn useless degrees that add nothing (my opinion) to society.
    4. They try to get positions in political office or juicy "non-profits" where they do doo doo 50+h/week (I wish I had those hours)

    The red thread going through their lives is the drive to virtue signal and feel good about themselves for the sake of feeling good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _boris_ View Post
    I don't know about your liberals, but some that I know, who do exactly the same things but a bit of twist once you start looking closer:

    1. They advocate reducing violence while playing sports. No pushing during futbol. Everyone is a winner. Participation trophies.
    2. They study left leaning books and media that portray tyrants like Lenin and Che as saints.
    3. They go to college to earn useless degrees that add nothing (my opinion) to society.
    4. They try to get positions in political office or juicy "non-profits" where they do doo doo 50+h/week (I wish I had those hours)

    The red thread going through their lives is the drive to virtue signal and feel good about themselves for the sake of feeling good.
    I'm sure there's some of those around.

    Just to quibble a bit -- likely some parents are sensible to not want their kids hurt in sports. I can remember battle after battle with my Mom about football. She eventually was part of the reason I switched from high school football (freshman halfback) to soccer (which I later played as high school captain, college varsity, semi-pro, and club teams until my 50's. My best buddy Niels, also a freshman halfback, got knocked into a four month coma next year and came out of it seriously damaged. Turns out Mom was probably right, despite my feelings as a kid that real men played football.

    But much of your unflattering portrait of some of the left sticks. Now let's look at the right fringes of our society. You've got one on the left that's soft in sports and egos, commie leaning, educated to no useful end, and seeking justification by being do-gooders. Let's try one on the right:

    1) Aim to solve most everything with threats, derision, violence, rape, bar fights, road rage, fists, or better yet guns. Think they're only winners if someone else is bullied or bloody.

    2) Lump the social democrats, socialists, and commies together as bad guys, without understanding any of it. Instead, they embrace neo-Nazi and white supremacist sources; that portray Hitler and an assortment of arsonists and mass shooters as heroes. Softer version is Hannity as hero, what with him throwing that football around after so many shows.

    3) Educated in the arts? No way. Too unmotivated, unlucky, or stupid to get into any college -- and end up just as unemployed and angrier.

    4) Want to be top dog in something, anything? Try to get into right wing media, gun, militia, etc. organizations to make themselves feel good and occasionally rich. Love the camera as much as any self-important leftie. Wayne LaPierre, incidentally, is the latest poster child of someone focused more of personal "fulfillment" and stirring up shit for dollars than the noble cause he supposedly represents.

    Pointing to the fringes, one way or the other, doesn't much help. Rather than separate us it ought to have us seeking common ground.

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    Just to be clear I am not anti law enforcement. I have had deputy Roser on my place twice for trespassers. Very professional, it would help the credibility of all the good guys if they could call a spade a spade when dealing with the stupid and criminal portion of law enforcement.
    First time Roser was here, I saw him and a couple of others walking around my shop carrying rifles. Kind of scary, they had chased an illegal and a coyote over my fence and below the shop. The illegal tripped and the deputy caught him by the ankle, he said the guy screamed like a little girl as he did not know the deputy was behind him. Never found the coyote but they advised me to pull the keys out of all the ranch vehicles that night as they were sure he was still hiding in the brush.
    Second time tourists drove all the way to the back of my place and got stuck in an irrigated oats patch. The driver sure acted drunk so I did not want to pull him out and let him go.

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    Show of hands.
    How many here have shot or killed a person in the front yard, downtown or in any civilian setting.
    Any idea what comes next? They don't just pat you on the back and say it was self defense.
    You may have wished you had explored other options in your moment of fear.
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Show of hands.
    How many here have shot or killed a person in the front yard, downtown or in any civilian setting.
    Any idea what comes next? They don't just pat you on the back and say it was self defense.
    You may have wished you had explored other options in your moment of fear.
    Bob
    Had a neighbor shoot a would be rapist 3 times. First time he was in her bed room and said to submit or he would hurt her son in the next room. She shot him, he ran out then came back she shot him again and he ran out. She then followed him out and shot him again as he laid in the drive way. No consequences for her.
    That is as close as it has come for me.
    I do not keep guns for self defense for humans, but I do have loaded guns for animals that attack my pet or livestock. The 45 Ruger save my life when pursuing a wild boar. He could have turned left or right but spun around and came right for me. Dropped him 2 paces from my feet.

    Thought about it some more, mark 2 coyotes (4 legged kind) from the front door while they were in the peanuts. Can not count how many rattlesnakes I have killed, some in the yard. On the ranch it is way of life having guns loaded. When I lived in town for lack of a couple of screws my guns were disassembled for years as I did not need them.
    snake.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Show of hands.
    How many here have shot or killed a person in the front yard, downtown or in any civilian setting.
    Any idea what comes next? They don't just pat you on the back and say it was self defense.
    You may have wished you had explored other options in your moment of fear.
    Bob
    Depends on where you live. In Maryland? They'll treat you worse than the rapist you shot. DC? Better just lay down and die. In Texas? Pat on the back. Even still there are groups like Texas Law Shield you can join to help you out in the eventuality that you do have to use your weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    It isn't fear driving ME. I'm not one of those screaming for more laws.

    YOU are one of the people trying to promote fear by suggesting that guns in private hands somehow promote crime and mass murder. I'm simply pointing out what so many try to gloss over which is that black on black violence is the largest part of why the U.S. murder rate is so high and why "mass shootings" appear so common.

    It's time to expose that nonsense about "angry white guys with guns" being the greatest threat to America. Here's a look at those "angry white males" the left keeps ranting about.

    mass-shooters-2019.jpg
    No scott, you are afraid, screaming that the big bad guys are coming and you need protection. Imaginary bad guys. i am trying to figure out how to stop actual bad guys actually doing harm. I am not worried in any particular fashion about imaginary gov't black squads.

    The only out of control law enforcement are working at the direction of your hero and have set up actual gulags full of people

    But since they are not you, you are not concerned

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderskunk View Post
    . . . Was just looking at reddit; seems to show you only what is “most popular” or “most liked.” Where is the validation of this vote? There isn’t one, and that’s perfectly legal. All this internet stuff; YouTube, google, Facebook; they not only have a significant controlling share of the loudest voices, but the ability to communicate with said factions in an instant AND make it seem like that’s just “what everyone thinks.” It’s such a global epidemic that there is no way to regulate it, much less understand its effect. . . .
    Good point. What most of the social media sites have figured out is that people keep clicking with stuff that they agree with. So, what their "AI" selects for display is often based on past searches. It's self-reinforcing and a distortion. What the sites get is more revenue from the ads invariably accompanying each new page. There is actually some talk of getting a more balanced view, could be we'll see being fed this crap is as dangerous to the health of a democracy as over-selling opioids are to the health of our citizens.

    There's already a human bias to think others agree with us (the "false consensus effect"). Web AI amplifies this as liberals keep seeing liberal bits and conservatives keep seeing conservative bits.

    This thread is a pretty good example of the false consensus effect. Judging by the posts in this thread, you'd think that 90% of the population opposes universal background checks. And based on responses, that a very significant number believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories about most everything including confiscating all our guns so a new world (liberal? Jewish? commie?) order can take over. But (in a Fox News poll), it's actually the other way round. 90% of us favor universal background checks.

    Don't know the % of US citizens favoring conspiracy theories (aka notions of how the world is being run by some hidden force known to a select few, and with most of the "evidence" either absent or equivocal). Does seem that most of us believe in at least one?

    One antidote is a bit of skepticism and searching for counter-factual sources.


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