What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 44
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  1. #861
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    One antidote is a bit of skepticism and searching for counter-factual sources.
    You probably meant more factual sources? :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    You probably meant more factual sources? :-)
    Yeah, wrong choice of words. Thanks.

    What I meant is that instead of starting by searching "what agrees with what I already think" search for what agrees with "what I think is wrong." Then evaluate the sources. Always searching for confirmation is a hard habit to break, but it's useful if you want the true facts.

    If a big news story breaks (and not the usual bleeds it leads or celebrity stuff), I'll often click back and forth between Fox and MSNBC as an example of seeing it from two perspectives. What's frustrating is when they pretend they're in parallel news universes.

    I figure we're pretty much doomed in this partisan environment, if we don't at least start with something close to the facts and then pay greater attention to long term systemic problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    No scott, you are afraid, screaming that the big bad guys are coming and you need protection. Imaginary bad guys. i am trying to figure out how to stop actual bad guys actually doing harm. I am not worried in any particular fashion about imaginary gov't black squads.

    The only out of control law enforcement are working at the direction of your hero and have set up actual gulags full of people

    But since they are not you, you are not concerned
    You just contradicted yourself. Our government is imprisoning law abiding American citizens for being brown, even after seeing drivers licences, passports, and birth certificates, but you say everyone should trust the government for protection and we have nothing to worry about.

    So yeah, one party wants to set up the concentration camps first, and the other wants to disarm the populace first. Both are working toward the police state.

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    In my post about the black areas of St. Louis I probably should have mentioned the black area in North Webster Groves. It was slave quarters after they chased the Osage Indians out, was never a white area. After the Civil War, the owner gave the properties to the freed slaves living there. It has had its ups and downs like any community but it never sank into the sort of slums that plagued other areas, I suspect partly because of its proximity to an affluent area that would provide domestic jobs.

    They had their own school, naturally named "Douglas School". After schools desegregated, they went to the other Webster Groves schools. For those who may remember a TV series called "Lucas Tanner", it was filmed in Webster High. A fellow who was in high school then said that there was little racial tension and a low crime rate. Girls left their purses on their desks and so on. Then someone decided that inner city students needed the advantages of a Webster Groves education and the big yellow busses arrived. From then on, everything left unattended disappeared. The whole character of the school changed. Eventually, most of the inner city kids were expelled or in jail and things became more peaceful.

    The moral to all this is that children are products of their environment (surprise, surprise) and I suspect that "education" is way too little, too late. A study of Romanian orphans found that by the age of two, a child's character was largely formed. Saint Thomas Aquinas wasn't joking when he said "Give me a child to the age of nine and I care not what you do thereafter." Note on the murder maps that the rate in Webster is zilch, including North Webster. I doubt that the black population here is genetically much different from the inner city. How to implement that sort of environment is the big question. Gun control is a dependent variable.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    From the early sixties, here is a list of based on the book "the Naked Communist", I would look at who overthrew the Tzar and is there any connection to those in control of big business in USA striving to meet these "goals":

    The Communist Takeover Of America - 45 Declared Goals

    The complete list is here as read into congressional record in 1963:

    THE NAKED COMMUNIST: 45 COMMUNIST GOALS | FLOW OF WISDOM(R) | SEAN ANTHONY

    some highlights: . . . .
    Or, likely not: Communist Rules for Revolution

    The source for those "rules" was likely a book by US author Cleon Skousen written in 1958.

    Imagine, nearly 100 years ago (source of original plan) some commie had a plan for the USA, masterfully executed since 1958. Back in 1919 commies didn't even have a workable plan for their own country. In 1958 they hardly foresaw their own collapse.

    Meanwhile we have actual commies (well, Putin and Russian oligarchs) stirring up crap here in the US and our President not even believing it (despite likely laundering some of their money in real estate deals), and his supporters not much caring. Instead, they're bringing back fake news of commie plans to dominate the US from decades ago.

    To add, if anyone has aimed to bribe and capture one or more political parties, gain key positions in the media or maybe reality TV, promote pornography, privatize second-rate education etc. etc. it wouldn't be true believing Communists infiltrating us right here in America. It would be some of our own people or maybe oligarchs abroad trying to make a buck and not caring who got hurt in the process.

    Just what is it that has people posting and others immediately "liking" this stuff without the slightest excuse of fact checking along the way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    I figure we're pretty much doomed in this partisan environment, if we don't at least start with something close to the facts and then pay greater attention to long term systemic problems.
    I think it is cyclical, and like the many examples historically it will resolve itself. That may mean civil disobedience, that may mean protests, that may mean some or all have to give ground. That may mean that we get our heads knocked together like to adolescents fighting to realize that our fight is not as important as we thought it was.

    The problem is, as represented by this thread, one person presents facts, which the second quickly discounts as "bullshit" and calls the first an asshole. A third person presents facts that paint a different picture, and they are labeled an extremist by the fourth. So how do you start with something "close to the facts" when you can't even get a group of people to agree on what facts are?

    So many in this thread have stated facts, but to question them and ask where their information comes from, they get bent out of shape. How do you have a discussion on that basis? How can you establish what facts to even use when people get so bent out of shape they can't discuss

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Main thing proven here is that actual "fake news" goes back a way.
    Further back than I bet you realize:

    The true history of fake news | 1843

    But.... you'd better fact check that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Or, likely not: Communist Rules for Revolution

    The source for those "rules" was likely a book by US author Cleon Skousen written in 1958.
    Not really sure what you mean by this? The 1958 book was referenced in 1919?
    Anyway here is a short exerpt from one of the his books about his source info:

    Methodology

    "Part of the great contribution by The Naked Communist toward learning Communism’s history and goals was due largely to Skousen’s research practices and procedures. The problem he faced was historical facts, quotes, and biographies regarding Communism and its founders were in French, German or Russian, and were printed in Europe. Very few books were available to American students. The answer for Skousen was to adhere to original source materials which were available in English.
    “I preferred to make my analysis from the original Communist sources and draw my own conclusions because I had found that many modern apologists for Communist theory had tried to twist the original doctrines in an effort to rationalize away their inconsistencies.”
    As for more modern events, he quoted current authors who were actively researching Communist conspiracy. These are cited in the bibliography.
    “My bibliography includes a large percentage of original Communist sources,” Skousen said. “Practically all of these were published York between 1930 and 1940. These are the books I have in my library and the ones which I quote.”

    Complete intro:
    https://wcleonskousen.com/wp-content...troduction.pdf

    Skousens website:
    Welcome - W. Cleon Skousen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    It isn't fear driving ME. I'm not one of those screaming for more laws.

    YOU are one of the people trying to promote fear by suggesting that guns in private hands somehow promote crime and mass murder.

    Just wanted to add, as further evidence that you cannot read the english language, or at least you ignore that which does not fit your hard right narrative

    IF you paid attention, I do not actually 'scream for more laws'
    I would like to see what we have here in Mass, where you and I are quite safe relatively speaking, duplicated around the country
    If you had paid attention you would notice I don't support the assault weapons ban, because it is and always has been pointless
    If you had paid attention you would notice I have supported 'shall issue' within the confines of the Mass system

    So i actually, from your perspective support less regulation here, but an evening of regulation across the country

    but you are not happy because the few minutes of paperwork you have to do offends you, no matter the cost

    just like all the other right wing spoiled children who are afraid of losing their toys

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    You just contradicted yourself. Our government is imprisoning law abiding American citizens for being brown, even after seeing drivers licences, passports, and birth certificates, but you say everyone should trust the government for protection and we have nothing to worry about.

    So yeah, one party wants to set up the concentration camps first, and the other wants to disarm the populace first. Both are working toward the police state.
    How would a gun help them?

    Are you going to take your gun out and fight the gov't shoot it out with tanks and helicopters?

    no

    There is little worry about that, only in paranoid delusions.

    What I worry about is actual people dying, don't try to suck me into your paranoid delusions

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    Personally have only shot rattlesnakes that were close to my house that has probably totaled a half dozen. As for packing a gun out of the house for self defense purposes only did it when I used to cut firewood in bear country.
    I probably saw at least a dozen or more over a couple years, they were all black bears that are rarely aggressive. Most of them just run off when they see you. I did run across one I could have touched who was eating out of a pot outside my front door that we used to put leftovers in for the local raccoons. He ran away real fast. That was pretty startling, it was 4:30 a.m. and I was heading out the door to get my morning coffee on the way to 7-11. That was mid 80's in the So Cal mountains.

    At that same job I was headed to the morning I ran across the bear I had a co-worker/friend that shot and killed two guys who were in the process of stealing a camper shell off his pick-up. He heard a noise in the early morning darkness outside his house as he was getting ready for work. He grabbed his .357, turned on the driveway lights and opened the front door and asked them what the $%%#&@ they were doing, one guy pulled a gun and told him to go back inside. My co-worker shot them both once each center mass and they bled out before the police arrived.

    The interesting part of the story is he was a couple hours late to work and was kind of an oddball. A good example was he would ask someone "Do you want to see a picture of my girlfriend?" If you said yes he would produce a picture of a girl in a bikini vomiting over the side of a boat. When he told us he was late because he killed two guys trying to steal his camper we all thought it was a story, until another guy brought in the newspaper article covering it a few days later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Not really sure what you mean by this? The 1958 book was referenced in 1919?
    Anyway here is a short exerpt from one of the his books about his source info. . .
    The link I provide, going back to a purported (and fake) communist 1919 list was one of Skousen's sources. That's the 1919 bit. The original "news" is now a century old.

    Skousen published his book in 1958, just a bit late to McCarthy's witch hunt. Back then we were worried about commies in Vietnam. Sixty years ago.

    A Republican then read bits of Skousen's "conclusions" into the Congressional records in 1963 - your source for this conspiracy theory about how commies carried around a secret plan of 45 items to take over the US. In 1963 something like 120 GI's were killed in Vietnam. Time to stiffen our resolve, get deeper in??

    Meanwhile if anyone is doing the actual taking-over it's been those hiding under the cover of unbridled capitalism, using hidden money in politics, tax and regulatory preferences for pharma, real estate, guns, tobacco, defense, finance, insurance, oil, etc. industries. The polar opposite of Communists. Even Russia isn't Communist anymore. Just another repressive dictatorship with a supporting cast of oligarchs.

    Actual Commies, wanting government ownership of most everything, were left in the dust decades ago. They have zip to do with the financialization of this country, Microsoft wanting a monopoly, GM's decision to kill ignition switch customers, the 2008 great recession, the opioid crisis now killing more than guns, our entry into the Iraq war, our national debt, kids in college debt, minorities wanting to be treated as equals under the law, Facebook selling your data, etc. etc. -- except as a bogeyman for those hoping to grab a super-sized portion of the American dream.

    Some on the far right are now digging it up again -- another scary tale resurrected from the grave.

    I'll leave it to you to protest it's based on impeccable research about Russian commies based on Skousen's "original" English-language sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    Personally have only shot rattlesnakes that were close to my house that has probably totaled a half dozen. As for packing a gun out of the house for self defense purposes only did it when I used to cut firewood in bear country.
    I probably saw at least a dozen or more over a couple years, they were all black bears that are rarely aggressive. Most of them just run off when they see you. I did run across one I could have touched who was eating out of a pot outside my front door that we used to put leftovers in for the local raccoons. He ran away real fast. That was pretty startling, it was 4:30 a.m. and I was heading out the door to get my morning coffee on the way to 7-11. That was mid 80's in the So Cal mountains.

    At that same job I was headed to the morning I ran across the bear I had a co-worker/friend that shot and killed two guys who were in the process of stealing a camper shell off his pick-up. He heard a noise in the early morning darkness outside his house as he was getting ready for work. He grabbed his .357, turned on the driveway lights and opened the front door and asked them what the $%%#&@ they were doing, one guy pulled a gun and told him to go back inside. My co-worker shot them both once each center mass and they bled out before the police arrived.

    The interesting part of the story is he was a couple hours late to work and was kind of an oddball. A good example was he would ask someone "Do you want to see a picture of my girlfriend?" If you said yes he would produce a picture of a girl in a bikini vomiting over the side of a boat. When he told us he was late because he killed two guys trying to steal his camper we all thought it was a story, until another guy brought in the newspaper article covering it a few days later.
    Seems to me he killed one guy who was threatening to shoot him, and another guy who was his accomplice and likely to also be armed.

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  21. #874
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Just wanted to add, as further evidence that you cannot read the english language, or at least you ignore that which does not fit your hard right narrative

    IF you paid attention, I do not actually 'scream for more laws'
    I would like to see what we have here in Mass, where you and I are quite safe relatively speaking, duplicated around the country
    If you had paid attention you would notice I don't support the assault weapons ban, because it is and always has been pointless
    If you had paid attention you would notice I have supported 'shall issue' within the confines of the Mass system

    So i actually, from your perspective support less regulation here, but an evening of regulation across the country

    but you are not happy because the few minutes of paperwork you have to do offends you, no matter the cost

    just like all the other right wing spoiled children who are afraid of losing their toys
    That is very open and accepting of you.

    I am glad to see someone in this thread actually outline what they would like to be done. I genuinely applaud you for that. I have read all your previous posts, but I must not have been paying attention, because I did not see it succinctly put like you did in this post.

    Though, I guess I am one of those right wing spoiled children who is afraid of losing his toys. I would not want Mass laws to be national. When I visited the museum at Springfield Armory for a week to do research, I was not allowed to bring a rifle built in 1892 to show the curator, because Mass chooses to redefine the federal definition of an "Antique", and as an out of state resident, it would be illegal for me to travel in Mass, to the Museum, with the rifle.

    Which is a shame, because the curator had never seen one before.

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    I see your point on that
    I don’t quite understand the why of it but here should certainly be an exception to whatever that rule is in your case

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dualkit View Post
    .. I did run across one I could have touched who was eating out of a pot outside my front door that we used to put leftovers in for the local raccoons. .....
    You feed the local raccoons....
    If ever there was a need for a small quiet gun or a big dog this is it.
    I hate these varmits and the damage they have done to my house, cabin and shop.
    Bears here are rather shy if you yell at them, my uncle in Alaska tells me not the same there so a good case for carrying a bigger gun at your side.

    Now if you kill someone for theft or home entry. The basic rule is you can not do more harm than the sentence for the crime.
    Theft does not carry a death penalty. Once they pull a gun then things change but you'd better be able to prove that and be able to pay for the lawyers.
    Guess what? You end up spending more money than the camper was worth and they take your gun for the next 6 months as "evidence".
    Then you have to file paperwork to get it back and jump through many hoops if you care enough to get back your very expensive match gun.
    Even if all the officers involved know you there is a set of rules and a system.

    If you have to do this I think the stories of "walking away" are greatly exaggerated. While in the right you will spend a lot of money.
    I'm all for personal protection firearms. What do you do if you wound but did not kill? Call for help for the bad guy?
    Bob

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    Depends on where you live. In Maryland? They'll treat you worse than the rapist you shot. DC? Better just lay down and die. In Texas? Pat on the back. Even still there are groups like Texas Law Shield you can join to help you out in the eventuality that you do have to use your weapon.
    I was kind of surprised that some bystander didn't get the El Paso guy. Pretty easy to carry there, open or concealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    You feed the local raccoons....
    That was back over 30 years ago when I lived in the SoCal mountains in a sparsely populated area on a large parcel of land with my girlfriend and her 3 kids. The kids really enjoyed them and they did no damage. They usually showed up twice a day, at breakfast and dinner time. I actually used to hand feed them till one got spooked and clawed the crap out of my hand. I think it just depends on where you live whether the critters are to be enjoyed or are pests.

    The best time I had feeding them was on my 25th birthday. I never liked sweets and got like 3 sheet cakes given to me. I let my girlfriend and her kids eat one and put the other two outside. Nothing funnier than watching a half dozen raccoons covered in frosting fighting to out eat the competition.

    Where I live now I only see dead ones run over on the road, sad to me, I like them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    You feed the local raccoons....
    If ever there was a need for a small quiet gun or a big dog this is it.
    I hate these varmits and the damage they have done to my house, cabin and shop.
    Bears here are rather shy if you yell at them, my uncle in Alaska tells me not the same there so a good case for carrying a bigger gun at your side.

    Now if you kill someone for theft or home entry. The basic rule is you can not do more harm than the sentence for the crime.
    Theft does not carry a death penalty. Once they pull a gun then things change but you'd better be able to prove that and be able to pay for the lawyers.
    Guess what? You end up spending more money than the camper was worth and they take your gun for the next 6 months as "evidence".
    Then you have to file paperwork to get it back and jump through many hoops if you care enough to get back your very expensive match gun.
    Even if all the officers involved know you there is a set of rules and a system.

    If you have to do this I think the stories of "walking away" are greatly exaggerated. While in the right you will spend a lot of money.
    I'm all for personal protection firearms. What do you do if you wound but did not kill? Call for help for the bad guy?
    Bob
    I read about an Alaskan doctor who had treated 10 cases of grizzly attacks. He would not go in the woods without his .475 Linbaugh. Easy to see why.

    Re having your gun confiscated as evidence, Graves Gladney, who was a grandson of the guy who started 7up was also one of the original 101st Airborne, jumped on Sainte Mere Eglise, fought across Europe and met the Russians. Not exactly a shrinking violet personality. His Karmann Ghia got stolen with his 1911 in it. The police found the car but kept the gun as "evidence". When the cops refused to return it, he growled "That gun was personally presented to me by Harry Truman and you are going to give it back." He returned with a phalanx of lawyers trailing him and left with his gun.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    The problem is, as represented by this thread, one person presents facts, which the second quickly discounts as "bullshit" and calls the first an asshole. A third person presents facts that paint a different picture, and they are labeled an extremist by the fourth. So how do you start with something "close to the facts" when you can't even get a group of people to agree on what facts are?
    Gosh that sounds like how a “dial versus digital calipers” conversation goes, line by line.

    I will say, I’ve seen a few threads that are 100% in one direction, like how badly JobBoss sucks as an ERP system.


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