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  1. #881
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    OK, folks, I am starting to see a lot of personal attacks and that is against my rules. You can attack the message but not the messenger. I will let this thread continue to run if this changes but if not, I will lock it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    OK, folks, I am starting to see a lot of personal attacks and that is against my rules. You can attack the message but not the messenger. I will let this thread continue to run if this changes but if not, I will lock it.
    Understandable, but what should someone do when a poster is using Supremacist tropes or paranoiac conspiracies like "crisis actors"? How is that to be dealt with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    What you said is "the fact is, they (cops) murder more people than everyone else combined." . . . . For that to be true cops would have to murder something like 14,000 people (varies some) each year.
    Ah. You are expanding the thread to cover ALL shootings. I was speaking in the context of the "angry white guy with assault weapon shoots up school". The cops are a far greater danger than the maniacs and I will stick by that one.

    Problem to be solved? Yes. A problem that fits your description? Not even close.
    Depends on how the definition. I thought we were talking about mass killings, not all firearms-related deaths. If we restrict the conversation to mass killings, I am correct. The cops are the bigger problem.

    We have plenty of problems to solve. And step #1 is getting the facts right.
    Certainly. So ...

    "Feldman [Harvard] used data from the Guardian’s 2015 investigation into police killings, The Counted, and compared it with data from the National Vital Statistics System (NVSS). That dataset, which is kept by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), was found to have misclassified 55.2% of all police killings, with the errors occurring disproportionately in low-income jurisdictions.

    “As with any public health outcome or exposure, the only way to understand the magnitude of the problem, and whether it is getting better or worse, requires that data be uniformly, validly, and reliably obtained throughout the US,” said Nancy Krieger, professor of social epidemiology at Harvard’s Chan School of Public Health and senior author of the study. “Our results show our country is falling short of accurately monitoring deaths due to law enforcement and work is needed to remedy this problem.”

    According to this particular Hahvahd study, the statistics on police killings were off by 55%. In Oklahoma, off by 100%

    Which facts do you want to use, monsewer ? The ones you prefer, or the reality-based ones ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGaskill View Post
    OK, folks, I am starting to see a lot of personal attacks and that is against my rules. You can attack the message but not the messenger. I will let this thread continue to run if this changes but if not, I will lock it.
    I ask you to please NOT lock the thread but instead deal with the offenders. I would suggest replacing the content of the post with something like "Post Deleted - Personal Attacks".

    IMO 9100 has done a service by raising this issue which currently is largely dominating the news cycle. While all are of course welcome to voice opinions IMO a small number are using personal attacks in an attempt to silence others, and if the attacks fail to deter them locking the entire thread would serve their aims just as well. That is just one man's opinion but I see a familiar pattern that has played out on PM many times before.

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  7. #885
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post

    IMO 9100 has done a service by raising this issue which currently is largely dominating the news cycle.
    We don't agree on much, but on this we do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Understandable, but what should someone do when a poster is using Supremacist tropes or paranoiac conspiracies like "crisis actors"? How is that to be dealt with?
    The same way it should be done in ANY debate, and that is what this is. We were taught in school that the man who must answer the opinion of another with personal attacks has already lost the debate.

    I find many opinions offensive also, likely different ones from yours, but as we all know opinions vary and rightfully so in a nation where the very first Amendment to the Constitution sets out protections for freedom of speech.

    If you feel someone is putting forth ridiculous "conspiracy theories" than rebut the theories, with reference to sources if possible. Simply saying they cannot voice an opinion because someone will be offended or have their feelings hurt is not acceptable.

    I despise the concept of "hate speech" laws because they try to equate hurt feelings with actual physical harm. The reason you can not shout "fire" in a crowded theater (unless you believe there actually is a fire) is because of the PHYSICAL harm it causes by inciting panic. Yet today many try to equate that with the speech they want to ban.

    White supremacists and Nazis have a right to voice their often hurtful opinions. So do black supremacists, communists, anarchists, and many others. Until they cross the line of actually inciting violence their speech is and should be protected. I for one would rather hear what they espouse, as it helps understand why we might oppose them and occasionally we might even hear something that shakes our beliefs. The black community was the first to raise the issue of police violence and decades later many whites are also concerned that SOME police are using excessive and unwarranted force against citizens. Had we stifled those early speakers because we disagreed with them we might never have been able to hear others who more recently have tried to raise awareness.

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    So there's nothing that's "beyond the pale"? Aren't some things, like denying someone's humanity or claiming their death is a faked conspiracy just a bridge too far?

    At that point we might as well have to prove the premise that gravity exists before moving on to things more core to the argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    That is very open and accepting of you.

    I am glad to see someone in this thread actually outline what they would like to be done. I genuinely applaud you for that. I have read all your previous posts, but I must not have been paying attention, because I did not see it succinctly put like you did in this post.
    I also seem to have missed the gentleman's posts where he explicitly made those points.

    Perhaps he (Mr. Gustafson) would be kind enough to list the post numbers for some of them so that we could go back and reread them. It would be educational to see how some of us missed those positive points and perhaps instead felt he was biased against gun ownership due to what other posts of his appeared to say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    So there's nothing that's "beyond the pale"? Aren't some things, like denying someone's humanity or claiming their death is a faked conspiracy just a bridge too far?

    At that point we might as well have to prove the premise that gravity exists before moving on to things more core to the argument.
    Reread my post. I specifically said that offensive speech should be protected, no matter the emotional effect on some of us. I routinely see things on various media that attack my (and others) religion, culture, and even world outlook. In many cases I am DEEPLY offended yet I never once have asked that they be censored. Some years back there was an "art" exhibit called Piss Christ that portrayed a crucifix in a bucket of urine. Such a display was extremely offensive to many of us and there were protests against it. The defenders claimed (rightfully) that it was protected as freedom of expression. Had this been an Islamic nation and the "art" offensive to the prophet the artist would have been condemned and then killed. THAT is not what America is about. I am also deeply offended when I see someone burn an American flag yet I swallow my revulsion and still respect their RIGHT to do so.

    Censorship is a stepping stone to tyranny and if "political correctness" were allowed to continue to its ultimate conclusion so many words and phrases would be eliminated that the English language would be degraded to the NewSpeak of Orwell's novel 1984.

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    Few people are calling for an outright ban on ownership, but what we are calling for is an end to the worship, an end to the "fixes all problems" psychosis that some people have. The guy shooting out of his car in Texas, the 14 year old in Alabama yesterday, and look at all the people here who conflate their weapons with their masculinity and identity. That ain't healthy, folks...

    And along with that, I want an end to the casual killings that are treated as an "oopsy" by the courts, like the death of a woman in Maine in 2017. She was in her own yard, shot by a hunter who admited he wasn't sure of what he was firing at. He was convicted of manslaughter (appropriate), but then sentenced to seven years in prison, with all but nine months suspended.

    What!? He's trespassing, kills a woman on her own property, doesn't render aid even though he heard her scream, and nine F'ing months is the penalty for don't-give-a-damn shooting?? No, this sort of casual killing should be twenty years, he took far more than that from this person.

    Maine hunter who shot woman pleads guilty to manslaughter | Boston.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Few people are calling for an outright ban on ownership, but what we are calling for is an end to the worship, an end to the "fixes all problems" psychosis that some people have. The guy shooting out of his car in Texas, the 14 year old in Alabama yesterday, and look at all the people here who conflate their weapons with their masculinity and identity. That ain't healthy, folks...

    And along with that, I want an end to the casual killings that are treated as an "oopsy" by the courts, like the death of a woman in Maine in 2017. She was in her own yard, shot by a hunter who admited he wasn't sure of what he was firing at. He was convicted of manslaughter (appropriate), but then sentenced to seven years in prison, with all but nine months suspended.

    What!? He's trespassing, kills a woman on her own property, doesn't render aid even though he heard her scream, and nine F'ing months is the penalty for don't-give-a-damn shooting?? No, this sort of casual killing should be twenty years, he took far more than that from this person.

    Maine hunter who shot woman pleads guilty to manslaughter | Boston.com
    First of all I note that you have changed the subject from censorship back to gun control. Fine. ONCE AGAIN you conflate the aberrations such as mass murderers and careless hunters with the millions of law abiding citizens who peacefully own and use firearms. Then you add in the stereotypical anti-gunner's slur "all the people here who conflate their weapons with their masculinity and identity". If by "here" you mean this thread perhaps you would be kind enough to point out some of the posts upon which you base that particular insult.

    As for the careless hunter I believe you have got a couple of facts wrong (EDIT: See my correction below). The hunter ABSOLUTELY was wrong in firing at something he had not fully identified and because his actions caused harm he should have been punished. I believe he was in fact not on her land but adjacent to it. Also as I recall one of the reasons for a lighter sentence was the unusual behavior of the woman. Although she had lived there for some time she had chosen to go outside during hunting season wearing clothing that mimicked the coloration of deer and was not actually at her clothesline near the house but for some reason had gone much further towards the woods.

    CORRECTION: I just followed the link you posted and that was not the case I thought it was although the other case was mentioned.

    But AGAIN, exactly TWO hunters out of the thousands who hunt in Maine were careless and killed someone yet you would lay the blame not only on all hunters but all gun owners.

    Although you claim you and others are not calling for an outright ban, I strongly feel that you and several others here are indeed hard-core anti-gunners who are well aware that incremental measures are far more likely to achieve the overall goal of reducing gun ownership to the point where it becomes virtually nonexistent. The old analogy of boiling a frog by gradually raising the heat comes to mind.

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  18. #892
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    Yeah, I got it all wrong...

    "Spofford told WGME-TV before the court hearing that her granddaughter would still be alive if the hunters had sought permission to hunt on the property. The land is now posted with “access by permission” notices. “It didn’t have to happen,” Spofford said."

    On her property. And now you say it was her fault that she was shot (on her own property!) because she didn't wear the right outfit. Gosh, you fashionistas are tough these days. I can't imagine what you'd say if she'd been wearing white after Labor Day.

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  20. #893
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    And on hunting down all the posts that mix identity with weaponry? It's tempting, but going through them all only to have you dismiss them would be pointless, wouldn't it.

    On the speech issue - not going to bother trying...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Few people are calling for an outright ban on ownership, but what we are calling for is an end to the worship, an end to the "fixes all problems" psychosis that some people have. The guy shooting out of his car in Texas, the 14 year old in Alabama yesterday, and look at all the people here who conflate their weapons with their masculinity and identity. That ain't healthy, folks...

    And along with that, I want an end to the casual killings that are treated as an "oopsy" by the courts, like the death of a woman in Maine in 2017. She was in her own yard, shot by a hunter who admited he wasn't sure of what he was firing at. He was convicted of manslaughter (appropriate), but then sentenced to seven years in prison, with all but nine months suspended.

    What!? He's trespassing, kills a woman on her own property, doesn't render aid even though he heard her scream, and nine F'ing months is the penalty for don't-give-a-damn shooting?? No, this sort of casual killing should be twenty years, he took far more than that from this person.

    Maine hunter who shot woman pleads guilty to manslaughter | Boston.com
    I am not sure I understand the "worship" you are referencing. I certainly do not worship my guns in any degree, and if you are mistaking passion, interest, and love of sport for worship, then I certainly do not worship my guns to the degree that my brother in law worships baseball, or that my cousin worships basketball, or my father who, working 60+hrs a week, still manages to golf 7 days a week. He has 18 holes in on saturday and sunday morning before the course opens.

    As far as combining my weapons with my masculinity and identity, there are a lot of ways I could go with this comment, specifically you cannot tell me what my masculinity means, because one cannot define masculinity. That is derogatory and prejudice, I am shocked to hear you say such a thing? Just teasing. There may be people that confuse or combine their masculinity and their weapons, but I do not see, or do not understand what it is your are pointing out. Maybe I missed some posts where someone did. I will say that I believe the 2nd amendment is very much a part of my identity. As is the rest of The Constitution and The Declaration of Independence. As is this country.

    In regards to your "casual killings", I agree wholeheartedly. It sounds like the hunter had a better lawyer and got off with a plea bargain. Plea Bargains should not allow someone to get off with a light punishment. We could go through literally THOUSANDS of cases where someone "got off easy". I have a few friends in law enforcement who can tell you their anger and frustration with dealing with cases where people were let off with a slap on the wrist.

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  23. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    That is very open and accepting of you.

    I am glad to see someone in this thread actually outline what they would like to be done. I genuinely applaud you for that. I have read all your previous posts, but I must not have been paying attention, because I did not see it succinctly put like you did in this post.

    Though, I guess I am one of those right wing spoiled children who is afraid of losing his toys. I would not want Mass laws to be national. When I visited the museum at Springfield Armory for a week to do research, I was not allowed to bring a rifle built in 1892 to show the curator, because Mass chooses to redefine the federal definition of an "Antique", and as an out of state resident, it would be illegal for me to travel in Mass, to the Museum, with the rifle.

    Which is a shame, because the curator had never seen one before.
    Went on a North East tour about a year ago. Stopped at American Precision Museum, Starrett factory, B&S (Hexagon) factory, and the Springfield Armory which was by far my favorite stop. On this trip I stopped at a Cabela's in MA just to mill around. Without giving it a second thought I tossed a box of shotgun shells that caught my eye on the sale rack into my cart. When I got to the counter the lady asked me for my LTC. I explained to her that I was from out of state and didn't know what she was talking about. Turns out without a license not only can you not buy a firearm of any kind but not one measly box of ammunition, boy did that make me feel safe, having constitutional rights stripped away and what not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderskunk View Post
    Gosh that sounds like how a “dial versus digital calipers” conversation goes, line by line.

    I will say, I’ve seen a few threads that are 100% in one direction, like how badly JobBoss sucks as an ERP system.
    JobBoss sucks, so does E2, in fact they all stink. Like cheese you just acquire a taste for it, or is it like poison and a tolerance?

    Dial all the way! Digital are for old men who cant see! Also if you ask to borrow mine I'll hand you my verniers.



    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    Went on a North East tour about a year ago. Stopped at American Precision Museum, Starrett factory, B&S (Hexagon) factory, and the Springfield Armory which was by far my favorite stop. On this trip I stopped at a Cabela's in MA just to mill around. Without giving it a second thought I tossed a box of shotgun shells that caught my eye on the sale rack into my cart. When I got to the counter the lady asked me for my LTC. I explained to her that I was from out of state and didn't know what she was talking about. Turns out without a license not only can you not buy a firearm of any kind but not one measly box of ammunition, boy did that make me feel safe, having constitutional rights stripped away and what not.

    And yet when you suggest voter ID for voting, you know to stop the Russians from voting, the same people screech voter suppression. Even though other nations whom they praise for their small arm laws require it.

    Same can be said for suppressors for guns. You need heavy licensing for a fire arm, yet you can buy a suppressor over the counter. So lets go back tangent to the car licensing argument they like so much, would you accept a car with out a muffler?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Reread my post. I specifically said that offensive speech should be protected, no matter the emotional effect on some of us. I routinely see things on various media that attack my (and others) religion, culture, and even world outlook. In many cases I am DEEPLY offended yet I never once have asked that they be censored. Some years back there was an "art" exhibit called Piss Christ that portrayed a crucifix in a bucket of urine. Such a display was extremely offensive to many of us and there were protests against it. The defenders claimed (rightfully) that it was protected as freedom of expression. Had this been an Islamic nation and the "art" offensive to the prophet the artist would have been condemned and then killed. THAT is not what America is about. I am also deeply offended when I see someone burn an American flag yet I swallow my revulsion and still respect their RIGHT to do so.

    Censorship is a stepping stone to tyranny and if "political correctness" were allowed to continue to its ultimate conclusion so many words and phrases would be eliminated that the English language would be degraded to the NewSpeak of Orwell's novel 1984.
    I agree. The way to deal with offensive "art" (and I do consider the example offensive) is to vote with our feet. Don't go to the exhibit.

    Political correctness has even prohibited the proper name of the Italian colony in St. Louis which has stayed more or less intact while others have melted into the mass, home of some of the best restaurants you can find. We have to call it "The Hill" instead of its real name "Dago Hill"

    As an aside, I noticed in a photography book that it followed a sequence starting with posed daguerreotypes, Mathew Brady's Civil War pictures, Margaret Bourke-White's industrial, war, and social commentary, Ansel Adam's landscapes and Elliot Porter's wonderful bird pictures, and ended with some clown taking a picture of himself nude in a mirror. The best themes have been done so many times that photographers have become increasingly freaky in their attempts to do something different. Time has a way of straining the garbage out.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    Went on a North East tour about a year ago. Stopped at American Precision Museum, Starrett factory, B&S (Hexagon) factory, and the Springfield Armory which was by far my favorite stop. On this trip I stopped at a Cabela's in MA just to mill around. Without giving it a second thought I tossed a box of shotgun shells that caught my eye on the sale rack into my cart. When I got to the counter the lady asked me for my LTC. I explained to her that I was from out of state and didn't know what she was talking about. Turns out without a license not only can you not buy a firearm of any kind but not one measly box of ammunition, boy did that make me feel safe, having constitutional rights stripped away and what not.
    That's not the least of our crazy laws. In theory under current Massachusetts law you could have been prosecuted for possession of ammunition without a license. Although I seriously doubt many police would bother or prosecutors be foolish enough to prosecute. The law also prohibits possession of ammunition components and even an empty fired shell casing is considered contraband without a license. When we hold events open to the public we let kids and their parents shoot a variety of items under close supervision. Many of the kids ask if they can take an empty fired casing and we must explain not only the legal issues but that if they took such an item to school they would likely be expelled under Zero Tolerance policies and the family investigated.

    When some on this forum say they would like to see our laws imposed on the whole country I hope some of you will take time to see just what that would mean. And keep in mind that there are those in California, New York, New Jersey etc. who also think THEIR strict laws would be a great model. Buyer beware!

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    Yeah I thought NY was bad until I went to MA, Also... silencers require a NFA tax stamp via the BATF, you don't buy them like you would a pack of gum.

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