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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Here's an interesting take on the history of American gun culture and why the author, who supports gun control, feels that guns are "so much a part of our cultural DNA that there will never be truly meaningful gun control in the U.S.".


    And another article about guns by the same author.

    With respect, I don’t care how many articles are written muddying the waters. When you look at the CDC numbers of 500k-3million regarding the annual times a firearm is used in defense of a crime.... when you take away over half of gunrelated deaths which are suicides .... take away the other 80% which are drug related ... throw in the number of deaths via a rifle(includes ARs) as less than 500 annually... this shows those seeking reform are either ignorant to the statistics or simply wanting to disarm the public equating to less resistance.

    Every dem running for president is calling for confiscation of semi auto firearms. Let that sink in. EVERY semi auto. With handguns being used 20x the amount of ARs, do you think they will stop at AR style? Check out Florida’s last bill that is/was being pushed. It includes almost everything but single shots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    I would say the primary reason is that there's no such thing as "meaningful gun control".
    When the NFA act was passed in 1932, it had two primary purposes in my opinion. First and foremost was to obstruct the common person from owning "machine guns". This was done by the $200 stamp tax, that put it out of reach from the common person. Second, this was not passed under the guise of gun control, it was, simply put, a desperate attempt to find something that would stick in a court of law against "gangsters". Remember, this was a time that criminals were better equipped than our police forces.

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    Looking at homicide rates of different cities, notice that New York and Los Angeles have some of the lowest on the list. Why aren't police forces in cities in high murder areas seeing what these cities are doing right? Instead of counting how many cartridges we can can stuff in a magazine, how about concentrating on keeping people from wanting to kill each other? Presumably NY and LA have found ways to remove the motivation.

    List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    Plovdiv, Bulgaria has a Roman theater that is still in use.
    When the Greek government locked all the bank accounts and refused to let people withdraw their own money, a friend who is a director needed some equipment, so I bought it and shipped to him. He was involved in putting on some ancient tragedies in the same theaters they were originally performed in. Chinese stuff (that I shipped, not the plays) but he said it worked okay It was pretty cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    ?comprehension reading much

    A MOVIE theater is different from a theater the 'ancient' greeks and romans had.
    C'mn, guy, you can't be that dumb. No it's not. All those beautiful art deco movie theaters getting restored around the US ? They were theater theaters first. They all have proscenium arches, curtains, a stage, most of them have a pit for the orchestra. There is absolutely nothing special about a "movie" theater.

    Besides that, this claim that them ignerrant revolutionaries what wrote the constee-tuition coulda never thought a these here modrun inventions - jesus, what a monumental ego ! Benjamin Franklin was an inventor, well acquainted with optics (and I am sure he went to the theater in France often, with one girl to sit on each leg, the old lech). Thomas Jefferson created the patent office, he was not exactly a retard about mechanical inventions. Leonardo da Vinci lived from 1452 to 1519. He had imagined every one of these "modern" contrivances. Jules Verne was born in 1828, just a few years after the establishment of the US. He not only imagined these things but wrote popular novels about them. People of that time certainly could and did imagine every single modern thing Mr Dipshit claimed "couldn't be done."

    Although if they had imagined the iPhone specifically perhaps they would have added a few more amendments

    It is possible to get too egotistical about how special "modern times" are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I 100% disagree with any claim that we need to revise the second amendment. As for clarifying it, the true meaning is crystal clear when examined using the writings of the period as a guide. I have previously quoted just a tiny handful of the literally thousands of historical quotes affirming the individual right.
    The part I never see discussed is the role of the militia. Oh sure, the libtards like to claim that it means that if you join the National Guard, you can have a gun. And it kind of in a way does, because almost all the founders were vehemently opposed to a standing army. Washington in particular hated the idea. Washington was dead-set on the US keeping its nose out of other country's affairs. If we were attacked, then and only then would the militia be called up to defend the country.

    This is in fact what happened in World War II. The army didn't win that war - the hundreds of thousands of civilians who signed up when a real need called won that war. We are supposed to be armed so that when it is needed, we can defend the US. Meanwhile, the fucking loser army can go jump on a brick.

    Washington was a pretty smart guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post

    This is in fact what happened in World War II. The army didn't win that war - the hundreds of thousands of civilians who signed up when a real need called won that war. We are supposed to be armed so that when it is needed, we can defend the US. Meanwhile, the fucking loser army can go jump on a brick.

    Washington was a pretty smart guy.
    I wonder if all these people wailing about firearms have ever heard of The Director of Civilian Marksmanship, now called the Civilian Marksmanship Program? The government is teaching people to shoot. Not only that, they are actually selling guns to the public, including those terrible semi-automatic ones. I read a long time ago that in one camp, when an NRA member came along, he was almost automatically made an instructor.

    If they don't know about it, don't tell them.

    I was too young to be in the war, but I certainly remember it. I have a picture of two of my cousins, one just graduated from high school, and went in the Army Air Corps. the next day. He became a flight engineer on a B 17, shot down over Germany, spent 18 months in a prison camp. The captain of a B 17 had to be 21, the rest often were not old enough to drink legally.

    We owe them, big time.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I wonder if all these people wailing about firearms have ever heard of The Director of Civilian Marksmanship, now called the Civilian Marksmanship Program? The government is teaching people to shoot. Not only that, they are actually selling guns to the public, including those terrible semi-automatic ones.
    And they have been selling to US Citizens for over 130 years from what I can document.

    When I was doing research at Springfield Armory I spent a considerable amount of time reading through microfiche of “Letters Received”. You could, by letter, order the current cutting edge military rifle, the Springfield “Trapdoor”, direct, from Springfield, made to your order.

    Some years later a relative ordered 4 Springfield 1903’s direct from the US Government. This was around the 1960’s. All four came in a crate, and were picked up at the local railroad station. Story was they shipped direct from the arsenal where they had been taken out of storage, inspected, and shipped. Cost for the four was $12, freight included. Cost of the freight was $15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    And they have been selling to US Citizens for over 130 years from what I can document.

    When I was doing research at Springfield Armory I spent a considerable amount of time reading through microfiche of “Letters Received”. You could, by letter, order the current cutting edge military rifle, the Springfield “Trapdoor”, direct, from Springfield, made to your order.

    Some years later a relative ordered 4 Springfield 1903’s direct from the US Government. This was around the 1960’s. All four came in a crate, and were picked up at the local railroad station. Story was they shipped direct from the arsenal where they had been taken out of storage, inspected, and shipped. Cost for the four was $12, freight included. Cost of the freight was $15.
    Springfield ARSENAL, not armory. Springfield Armory is a modern day company playing on the name.
    S

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    We owe them, big time.
    Biut they were civilians, not military.

    We don't owe the army doodly-squat. We certainly don't need to kowtow to people who murder by drone, who bomb neutrals, who attack hospitals, who shoot down air liners, who crash into cargo ships because they are too stupid to look out the front window. I don't buy this "thank you for your service" crap.

    1945 was a long time ago, and totally different people.


    Speaking of owing, did you know that the anti-Vietnam DFC-decorated George McGovern was a 35-mission bomber pilot in WW II ? Yet his thanks for his service (he was a civvy until the war broke out, another member of the militia George believed in) was to be smeared by that back-stabbing asshole Tricky Dick and shunned by the voters, who must not have a brain in their heads ?

    I just learned this recently. It was kind of a surprise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I wonder if all these people wailing about firearms have ever heard of The Director of Civilian Marksmanship, now called the Civilian Marksmanship Program? The government is teaching people to shoot. Not only that, they are actually selling guns to the public, including those terrible semi-automatic ones. I read a long time ago that in one camp, when an NRA member came along, he was almost automatically made an instructor.
    My M1 was purchased through the CMP. All the people crying AR-15s are "high power" rifles has never fired one of those beautiful pieces of machinery.

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    People who take training and spend time with other shooters are way less likely to do crazy/dumb things with guns.

    Yes except for terrorists who train to do bad things... for them we need a few private people with carrying a gun or we are just easy to kill.

    I don't carry but could take out a shooter at 50 feet with my old SM 38 pretty darn quick...Yes with time to take rest at greater distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Springfield ARSENAL, not armory. Springfield Armory is a modern day company playing on the name.
    S
    Springfield Armory - Wikipedia

    Springfield Armory, Inc. is the commercial company.

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    Several posters have made some excellent points about the long history of civilian ownership of "military grade" firearms.

    I wish to add a few more items.

    In the old west many civilians had superior arms to those of the government troops (U.S. Cavalry) who were often equipped with single shot trapdoor carbines while many civilians owned rapid firing lever actions with large capacity (tubular) magazines.

    Whenever the government upgraded to newer weapons the old ones were sold as surplus, sometimes to foreign governments but often to civilians. The fact that these military grade weapons were widely owned by those outside of government was obviously not an issue of concern.

    In times of war the government was always grateful that many of those called up for duty were already proficient in the use of arms. The National Rifle Association was founded after the Civil War specifically to address the issue that had plagued the North where so many of the draftees, having no prior experience with firearms not only had poor marksmanship but often loaded incorrectly in the heat of battle disabling their only weapon. Many Union generals said they were envious of the proficiency of the Confederate troops who had grown up with arms.

    At the start of WWII the British were in desperate need of arms and while the military received things like Thompson submachineguns under Lend Lease, the Home Guard was pitifully short of arms due to pre-war restrictions on civilian guns, a mistake the UK seems condemned to make over and over again. Many Home Guard units might have had only the odd shotgun or antique rifle and many of the members initially drilled with sticks and farm implements. Appeals were made to U.S. sportsmen and many donated personally owned firearms to be shipped to England.

    It is said by some that the difference between citizens and subjects is the ability to own arms and even where limited arms are allowed there is another test. Regimes that fear the population tend to enact restrictions on civilians owning guns that can fire the same ammunition used by troops. This was true not only in places like the Soviet Union and other communist countries but also in provinces of empire. Mohandas (Mahatma) Gandhi once said:

    "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."

    Under English rule, they not only severely restricted firearms ownership but also banned ownership of any rifle that could use the same ammunition as British troops. The reasoning behind this measure is that in the event of rebellion the rebels could resupply ammunition from defeated troops. I can't help but wonder if the fact that the most common AR-15s use the same ammunition as U.S. troops and also would be very familiar to operate for returning veterans is the real reason they want them gone. This noise about banning them "to prevent mass shootings" is a false flag as the real reason so many in power likely want them gone is because they are uniquely suited to the role of a general militia.

    "Militias, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves and include all men capable of bearing arms. [...] To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them."
    -- Senator Richard Henry Lee, 1788, on "militia" in the 2nd Amendment

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  19. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    Springfield ARSENAL, not armory. Springfield Armory is a modern day company playing on the name.
    S
    Absolutely right, I forget there is a modern company playing off the name.

    I use Arsenal and Armory, fairly interchangeably.

    Since they refer to themselves as Springfield Armory:
    Springfield Armory Museum - Advanced Collection Search

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    This is from the link that CAMasochism provided.

    "This ABC News/Washington Post poll was conducted by landline and cellular telephone Sept. 2-5, 2019, in English and Spanish, among a random national sample of 1,003 adults. Results have a margin of sampling error of 3.5 points, including the design effect. Partisan divisions are 28-24-37 percent, Democrats-Republicans-independents."

    1003 people, out of a population of over 320 million!

    It would be laughable if not for the sad fact that so many people believe these phony polls represent the real views of the American people. These polls are designed to SHAPE opinion, not measure it.

    When polls shape opinion rather than measure it | TheHill
    Laughable is you not knowing how polls work

    how did you think they work?


    polls for oh, a decade have shown support for background checks among gun owners and NRA members

    you are on the fringe even in your own group



    Polling Data on Guns Archives | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence


    Do majority of NRA members support background checks for guns? | PolitiFact Ohio


    discussion in second link about the accuracy of polls, note the conversation about repeated polls raising confidence


    not how radicals look to pooh pooh information rarely have contrary information themselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Laughable is you not knowing how polls work

    how did you think they work?


    polls for oh, a decade have shown support for background checks among gun owners and NRA members

    you are on the fringe even in your own group



    Polling Data on Guns Archives | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence

    Do majority of NRA members support background checks for guns? | PolitiFact Ohio


    discussion in second link about the accuracy of polls, note the conversation about repeated polls raising confidence


    not how radicals look to pooh pooh information rarely have contrary information themselves
    Polls commissioned by liberals using data from a small sample of people who CLAIM to be NRA members is bogus. The NRA conducts WRITTEN opinion polls of it's own verified members and the results are EXACTLY OPPOSITE of the claims made in these fraudulent polls.



    Your own links show how ridiculous the polls are and what tiny percentages of people who CLAIMED to be NRA members responded.

    "According to the poll, 24 percent of the respondents identified themselves as NRA members. That means of the total of 816 gun owners, 196 self-identified as NRA members."

    196 people and not even verified as members!

    "RyanÂ’s spokesman cited a 2015 poll of gun owners by Public Policy Polling, a Democratic polling firm, conducted on behalf of two liberal groups: MoveOn.org Civic Action and the Center for American Progress. The poll surveyed 816 gun owners."

    And your first link? The Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence is a hard-core gun control organization that started life as the Legal Community Against Violence and as the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence "to promote gun control and to oppose firearm ownership."

    Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence - Wikipedia

    That's right, the stated goal is to oppose firearm ownership. You don't get more radical than that!

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    many polls, over a decade


    yawn

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    many polls, over a decade


    yawn
    I like to debate and hear the other side, yet you are losing credibility by ignoring the statistics and simple logic. This is normal for anti gun types. A decade of polls from large cities that are perhaps left leaning makes no difference. We have the second along with the natural right to defend ourselves. If the left cares about gun violence, they would bring back the death penalty. Considering violent offenders recidivism rates, we would instantly erase a minimum of 50% of the violent crime in America. That’s a big dent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Biut they were civilians, not military.

    We don't owe the army doodly-squat. We certainly don't need to kowtow to people who murder by drone, who bomb neutrals, who attack hospitals, who shoot down air liners, who crash into cargo ships because they are too stupid to look out the front window. I don't buy this "thank you for your service" crap.

    1945 was a long time ago, and totally different people.


    Speaking of owing, did you know that the anti-Vietnam DFC-decorated George McGovern was a 35-mission bomber pilot in WW II ? Yet his thanks for his service (he was a civvy until the war broke out, another member of the militia George believed in) was to be smeared by that back-stabbing asshole Tricky Dick and shunned by the voters, who must not have a brain in their heads ?

    I just learned this recently. It was kind of a surprise.
    I was referring to the citizen soldiers. Most are gone now.

    I grew up among the citizen soldiers. They needed to do a job, did it and most went back to their civilian jobs. One neighbor didn't make it back. President Truman remarked that he had to dismantle the greatest war machine that ever was. He hated to do it after all that effort to make it, but the American people wouldn't stand for keeping it.

    George McGovern was one of those people who did his job. I don't think he was so much opposed to war when needed as to a stupid war that should never have happened. For that matter, WWI and WWII should never have happened. President Truman realized that and instead of treating Germany and Japan in the normal manner of conquered people, instituted the Marshall Plan and turned them into allies.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    not how radicals look to pooh pooh information rarely have contrary information themselves
    Your doing an excellent job of this. Instead of answering legitimate questions, you mock. Instead of participating in discussion you insult. Instead of listening to anything you claim "radical" "extremist".

    You and Scottl have polls that show the opposite of each other, yet he takes the time to actually discuss and reference the information in his. You mock and insult him. For someone (myself) who is interested to hear what proposals the left have for solving our current societal issues with firearms, you are making a terrible case.

    Something does need to change, whether with our society or with our laws. So far from what I see, expanding mental health resources seems to be the best option. I know this because I have talked to a number of people who are willing to have rational conversations about the options. You seem to want to crucify the right and gun owners, and if you have a rational argument your making a horrible case at it. So then I question whether you are one of these political internet trolls that the news is always talking about.

    If your hope is to just insult people and drive them further apart, you are doing a fantastic job. If your attempt is to make a rational discussion to inform people, you are doing a terrible job. If scottl is a right wing extremist, based on your posts it seems to make you out to be a left wing extremist. A perfect case study of the current political affairs in our country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    The part I never see discussed is the role of the militia. Oh sure, the libtards like to claim that it means that if you join the National Guard, you can have a gun. And it kind of in a way does, because almost all the founders were vehemently opposed to a standing army. Washington in particular hated the idea. Washington was dead-set on the US keeping its nose out of other country's affairs. If we were attacked, then and only then would the militia be called up to defend the country.
    Except the US government has been working for decades to pervert the National Guard into another branch of the military.

    "In 1986, Congress passed the Montgomery Amendment, which prohibited state governors from withholding their consent to overseas deployments. The Supreme Court upheld this law in 1990, ruling against Minnesota's governor in Perpich v. Department of Defense.

    In 2006, Congress passed the 2007 National Defense Authorization Act, which gave the president the authority to mobilize National Guard units within the U.S. without the consent of state governors.
    During the early 1980s, the governors of California and Maine refused to allow deployment of their states' National Guard units to Central America. In 1986, Congress passed the Montgomery Amendment, which prohibited state governors from withholding their consent. In 1990, the Supreme Court ruled against the governor of Minnesota, who had sued over the deployment of the state's National Guard units to Central America."

    What was supposed to be solely for the defense of the nation is now just another hand puppet.

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