What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 59
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    HAHAHAHAH. You haven't done anything but argue MY FEELINGS!!!! We don't give a shit about your feelings. Bring some truth and facts that prove that firearms do more harm than good that doesn't come from a Bloomberg funded study.

    over and over I post murder rate is higher in lax gun states, which it is, time after time


    facts, something you seem to know little about

    Texas, twice the murder rate of Mass, despite being 1/8 as densely populated

    Facts

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    over and over I post murder rate is higher in lax gun states, which it is, time after time


    facts, something you seem to know little about

    Texas, twice the murder rate of Mass, despite being 1/8 as densely populated

    Facts
    And what of the fact that defensive use is greater than the murder rate?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    Not blaming the media for the violence today but how many copy cats do we have from it? Wait for the first mass school shooting this year and let see how long it takes for the next kid to decide on going on a shooting spree. Maybe the movie theater is next or Walmart is next. These shooters seem to be inspired to copy other shooters from the past. Well maybe not a actually library but lets google mass shootings and see what we come up with. How do I turn a semi automatic weapon into a automatic weapon? Perhaps I google the vegas shooting and research what a bump stock can do to my weapon. Point I am making is the media seems to put too much information out there for young/old/twisted minds to learn from.
    I understand what you are getting at, but 'the internet' isn't really 'the media'

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    And what of the fact that defensive use is greater than the murder rate?
    What part of lower crime in gun control states is so hard to understand

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    What part of lower crime in gun control states is so hard to understand
    So guns are used defensively more than offensively means nothing to you. All you care about is your precious gun violence even though some of the numbers from your precious "gun violence" number come from justified use.

    If we were to really dig into your numbers of gun violence you'd start screaming racism at me. Same thing happens when Yankees like you like to talk down about how illiterate the south is, then shut up when we over lay the same map with a map showing race demographics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    So guns are used defensively more than offensively means nothing to you. All you care about is your precious gun violence even though some of the numbers from your precious "gun violence" number come from justified use.

    If we were to really dig into your numbers of gun violence you'd start screaming racism at me. Same thing happens when Yankees like you like to talk down about how illiterate the south is, then shut up when we over lay the same map with a map showing race demographics.
    So facts mean nothing to you.

    change the subject

    deflect deny


    of the top 15 stes in murder rate, but two are blue states

    go ahead bring up race

    whatever floats your boat

    but god forbid don't actually address the point

    massachusetts has lower crime rates and significant gun control, and denser than many states with similar levels of crime

    Unless you are trying to say that the much lower level of gun owners in mass are somehow defensively using their guns at rates much much higher than anywhere else, and thus lowering the crime rate, you have no point

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    So guns are used defensively more than offensively means nothing to you. All you care about is your precious gun violence even though some of the numbers from your precious "gun violence" number come from justified use.

    If we were to really dig into your numbers of gun violence you'd start screaming racism at me. Same thing happens when Yankees like you like to talk down about how illiterate the south is, then shut up when we over lay the same map with a map showing race demographics.
    It's not just race demographics but also the lack of traditional family and community that drives much of the "gun violence".

    After reading Fal Grunt's excellent analysis I decided to follow the links and dig a little deeper into the stats for the four states. This is what I came up with. Although this is a very limited sample, it looks as though there is some correlation with murder rates not only to births to unmarried mothers but also births to teen mothers.

    4-state-stats.jpg

    We already know that fatherless boys, especially from underage mothers are more at risk for crime and violence.

    While looking to see if gustafson's theory that population density correlates to murder rates I located this study that found a strong correlation between gang density and homicide rate.

    "There was a positive linear relationship between the street gang densities surrounding the population center of a zip code and both the number of homicides per square mile and the age-adjusted homicide rate in the zip code."

    The Effect of Urban Street Gang Densities on Small Area Homicide Incidence in a Large Metropolitan County, 1994–2002

    And as for gustafson's claims that Massachusetts gun laws have made "us" safer, that's not true for all parts of the state. For residents of some small areas it's VERY unsafe.

    Homicide risk across race and class: a small-area analysis in Massachusetts and Rhode Island
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...rticle_337.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Actually read my posts. I bore of repeating myself
    I did read, and understand, your posts, as evidenced by my responses. I see no evidence that you read and understood mine. Perhaps you should try doing something other than repeating yourself. I bore of your endlessly repeated feeble arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    Oh and preventable deaths, lets see how the right wing responds to those
    It seems you're assuming that I'm right wing, and then saying I must be wrong because you don't agree with some right wing arguments. I believe that's called a straw man.

    I'm neither right wing nor republican. I have never voted republican in my life, though I may be forced to hold my nose and do so in the upcoming election just to reduce the chances of civilian disarmament, since there is not a single democratic candidate currently that does not showcase gun grabbing as part of their platform.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    So facts mean nothing to you.
    You imply that facts mean something to you, yet your arguments indicate the opposite. You don't care about people killed by knives, beatings, etc., only about those killed by guns. But for the sake of argument I'm going to pretend you're a decent and rational human being and that you do.

    Let's take a look at what factor has the strongest correlation with violent crime:

    correlation violence economic inequality - Google Search

    Economic inequality accounts for 50% of the variation in violent crime between states, as well as between the US and other countries. It shows a far stronger correlation than gun laws, gun availability, overall poverty, or any other factor. If you want to save lives and reduce violence, economic inequality is what you will fight, not gun ownership.

    I look forward to your eloquent response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    The death penalty works based on logic and reason. If over 2/3 of violent criminals are repeat offenders, there is 2/3 of crime that we can eradicate with the DP.
    Unfortunately, the death penalty also works based on DA's with an agenda, bad judges, and stupid juries (how about that Haas case, eh ?).

    Many people on death row have had their convictions overturned later, based on facts (like, they were in Philadelphia that day but the jury didn't believe it. Then someone else was found to be the real killer.) Mistakes are made too easily. I'm more in favor of a true life sentence, no parole.

    However, there's the Richard Allen Davis, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy type, and the guys who are on video shooting up the school. Maybe we could have a death penalty only for people we know did it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    So facts mean nothing to you.

    change the subject

    deflect deny


    of the top 15 stes in murder rate, but two are blue states

    go ahead bring up race

    whatever floats your boat

    but god forbid don't actually address the point

    massachusetts has lower crime rates and significant gun control, and denser than many states with similar levels of crime

    Unless you are trying to say that the much lower level of gun owners in mass are somehow defensively using their guns at rates much much higher than anywhere else, and thus lowering the crime rate, you have no point
    Lower crime rate Correlates with significant gun control.


    There are a lot of very humorous correlation "facts" available from internet posts, Take a look at some, they are a riot!


    Coincidence is not causation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    Next they'll go after buying bulk ammunition. At first it will be something "sensible" like no one needs more than 100 rounds a month. But eventually they'll have it so that you have to find the golden ticket in the Wonka bar to be allowed to buy enough shells to shoot a round of trap. And of course there will be a 200% mark up for taxes and fees
    You need 100 to 200 rounds to shoot a trap competition, not including any practice or warm up. You should be shooting at least a couple hundred rounds a month, preferably over a thousand rounds a month, to be in practice. Pro shooters may use 30,000 rounds a year.

    What effect would ammo limits have? How many months would someone need to save up to shoot 20 people? Even if you're talking about something stupid like three rounds a month, not very long at all. The only effect would be that the armed people of the nation, otherwise known as the militia, would be unpracticed, or in the terms of the past, not well regulated.

    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Unfortunately, the death penalty also works based on DA's with an agenda, bad judges, and stupid juries (how about that Haas case, eh ?).

    Many people on death row have had their convictions overturned later, based on facts (like, they were in Philadelphia that day but the jury didn't believe it. Then someone else was found to be the real killer.) Mistakes are made too easily. I'm more in favor of a true life sentence, no parole.

    However, there's the Richard Allen Davis, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy type, and the guys who are on video shooting up the school. Maybe we could have a death penalty only for people we know did it ?
    I agree in principle, but for every one of those convictions the court claimed to know beyond any reasonable doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    So guns are used defensively more than offensively means nothing to you. All you care about is your precious gun violence even though some of the numbers from your precious "gun violence" number come from justified use.

    If we were to really dig into your numbers of gun violence you'd start screaming racism at me. Same thing happens when Yankees like you like to talk down about how illiterate the south is, then shut up when we over lay the same map with a map showing race demographics.
    You are making no sense

    ARe you seriously arguing that mass is safer than texas because of defensive gun use?

    We have lower crime here

    we have gun control here

    over and over and over but it does not sink in

    with lower crime you do not need to use your gun defensively

    people in red states with lax gun laws have to use their guns defensively, and there are more gun deaths


    what is it you do not understand

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    I did read, and understand, your posts, as evidenced by my responses. I see no evidence that you read and understood mine. Perhaps you should try doing something other than repeating yourself. I bore of your endlessly repeated feeble arguments.



    It seems you're assuming that I'm right wing, and then saying I must be wrong because you don't agree with some right wing arguments. I believe that's called a straw man.

    I'm neither right wing nor republican. I have never voted republican in my life, though I may be forced to hold my nose and do so in the upcoming election just to reduce the chances of civilian disarmament, since there is not a single democratic candidate currently that does not showcase gun grabbing as part of their platform.
    WE are talking here about gun violence, the only place the above commentary has any truth is where I did not bother to follow you wandering to other subjects

    You use right wing talking points, if you do not want to be confused don't use conspiracy theory terms like 'civilian disarmament'

    I do not address other forms of deaths because that is not what this thread is about, no matter your trying to change the subject.

    Firearms account for 2/3 of murders, so any fascination with knives is spurious, and not what this thread is about

    otherwise you have engaged in no truly meaningful debate, you have simply tried to change the subject

    I bothered to copy and read all your posts from the last few pages, no statistics, a few theoretical topics, a digression into mental health, a topic I previously touched on but didn't bother repeating

    unimpressive

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    I cannot read this the way you posted it

    sources for facts, do you really care?

    List of U.S. states by homicide rate - Wikipedia[fbi UCR]


    Best States for Gun Owners (2018)

    http://worldpopulationreview.com/sta...ate-densities/

    World Incarceration Rates If Every U.S. State Were A Country | Prison Policy Initiative

    just what I used today

    If you think my claims are outlandish, come up with competing numbers.

    but then it is all fake news isn't it

    Your sources back up my point, you complain the function is not linear 'more guns etc' of course it is not perfectly linear, but it follows

    there is no state with a zero murder rate, that must be a faulty number I show ND with 1.3


    health care, ummm, come on, seriously, of course it matters.

    first, health care includes mental health care

    and frankly, in order for there to be a murder, someone usually needs to die, so health care is indeed in the mix



    But sorry I cannot parse through your post any more it is hard to read



    Quote Originally Posted by Fal Grunt View Post
    I mock the foolish who say more of the same will do better

    Something needs to change?
    Absolutely

    Start using your brain

    I use my brain, I am asking you to engage your brain along with me instead of the hype and insults.

    where there are more guns, there are more gun deaths, everywhere

    I post the statistics, silence


    Going back to your posts, I see a lot of references to facts, but no cited sources for those facts.


    That is why I mock, you want to live in a world where the solution to everything is a shootout in the street, fine, put a vending machine full of guns on every street corner

    You get so defensive but then claim that I want to have a shoot out in the street? Where in any of my posts have I said that I wanted to have a shoot out in the street? I do not want to have a shootout ANYWHERE.

    You are safer in Mass than in Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, because we have better education, better health care, and yes, better gun control

    Yes health care is a big part of it

    Health care reduces murder/gun violence? I would be very interested to read that facts backing this statement.

    Here are some fact sheets to substantiate your statement.
    Stats of the State of Massachusetts
    Stats of the State of Texas
    Stats of the State of Alabama
    Stats of the State of Mississippi

    Gun ownership by state
    Massachusetts 22.6%
    Texas 35.7%
    Alabama 48.9%
    Mississippi 42.8%
    http://worldpopulationreview.com/sta...ship-by-state/ (not a great source, but the best I could find)

    But here's the thing

    So you want to play games and pretend to be all rational, that is fine, I am not buying in


    I am not playing a game, and I do not think anything in my posts would lead you to think I am playing games. Unless you and I have a completely different view of what a "game" is.

    More guns, more gun deaths, always

    You have no evidence to the contrary, because this always follows.

    Mass has the same murder rate as South Dakota, and no one lives in SD, they have to go look for people to kill.


    When looking at firearm mortality by state if you do a direct comparison of firearms ownership to the firearms mortality rate per 100k, there are several interesting and notable cases.
    Vermont, a blue state, with very lax gun laws has a 28.8% ownership with a 6.8 firearms mortality
    Virginia, a red state, with lax gun laws has a 29.3% ownership with a 11.5 firearms mortality
    The reason these two caught my attention was the nearly identical ownership rate, but nearly double the firearms mortality rate in Virginia.

    Looking at your two examples, Mass and SD:
    Mass 22.6% ownership, 3.7 firearms mortality rate, 2.6 murder rate
    SD 35% ownership, 11.9 firearms mortality rate, 4.2 murder rate.
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/s...ty/firearm.htm
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/s...y/homicide.htm

    If we look at extremes
    Delaware, a blue state, 5.2% ownership, 8.8 mortality
    Rhode Island, a blue state, 5.8% ownership, 3.6 mortality
    New York, a blue state, 10.3% ownership, 5.3 mortality

    Alaska, a red state, 61.7% ownership, 17.5 mortality
    Arkansas, a red state, 57.9% ownership, 15.7 mortality
    West Virginia, a red state, 54.2% ownership, 13.8 mortality

    It seems to me that firearms ownership to firearms mortality rates are not the linear, more guns, more deaths, that you stated. I think that statement actually hurts your argument. Based on your more guns, more deaths, statement, Alaska should have a 12 times higher mortality rate based on its 12 times higher ownership compared to Delaware. 12 times higher ownership, but double the mortality rate.

    The rate numbers are all from the CDC by the way, ownership numbers came from World Population Review. I compiled them into a spreadsheet to make it easier to directly compare murder, firearms mortality, firearms ownership. What is interesting is some states with high gun ownership may have high murder rates, but lower firearms mortality, others have high firearms mortality, but low murder rates. For example, North Dakota, according to the CDC, has a 47.9% ownership, an 13.2 firearms mortality rate, and a whopping 0 murder rate.

    You want to have a rational conversation, stop talking about 'fake news' and start investigating your facts.
    Absolutely none of my posts relate to fake news. I have always investigated my facts, I am asking you to do the same.

    What are the safer places in the country? The ones where there is population density? What are they doing?
    What are they doing differently is the question? And what do you propose is the next?

    Stop reading the NRA newsletter for all your facts
    Unfortunately I do not get a NRA newsletter, and if you look at my posts, not a single one references a poll or data provided by the NRA.

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    There used to be a statistics mashup site and I you could do a function with population and crime or other things

    If you had it in a spread sheet you could do a function with murder rate or gun death rate and population density

    I had that saved but the site died.

    I would think it would be more like the square root of density or .1 times density

    IIRC it seemed like it over accounted for density.

    4 people per sq mile is not really that much more dense than 2

    point being you could come up with a norm and determine what place deviates from the norm. One place or other may seem to be safer or more dangerous but it is a function of density

    If you took state that was around the US norm for crime and did a murder-100k /square root of density or somesuch you might see how places deviate

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    What part of lower crime in gun control states is so hard to understand
    It's *easy* to not understand. Three easy steps:

    1) see/read/hear an idea that violates your preconcieved notions about the world.

    2) place fingers firmly in ears and chant "la la la la la la."

    3) remove fingers, exclaim 'I simply don't understand!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    So they’re going to force vote after vote on ultimately repealing the Second Amendment right to bear arms. [
    Yeah, Moscow Mitch would never let that happen.

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    Gus,
    You are avoiding every statistic that we bring up. As you get older, hopefully you will learn that people are the problem, not the inanimate objects. We’ve shown that more guns do not equate to more deaths. I’m actually in awe of how blind you are to common sense.
    Summary: you are trying disarm ALL to save some, which historically hasn’t worked. This will be a civil war if the govt is stupid enough to try and disarm its citizens.

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    I am surprised that on this of all days there isn't greater consensus on why more restrictive gun laws will not solve the problem.
    Until people get some believable answers for what really happened – on any number of heinous events, they should believe they are being lied to.
    Your government is not likely to fix a problem they have worked so hard to create.
    Trusting your government to control your rights is akin to sheep trusting a wolf to be their guardian.
    After 9/11 Americans experienced the greatest constriction of rights in several generations, in the form of Homeland Security.
    Critical examination of many other events would lead any reasonable person to question the Official Story (like the Epstein suicide, etc.)

    While there are many sources that are available to the truth seekers, I offer this one as a starting point.
    YouTube

    conspiracy3.jpg

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