What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 6
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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by wp6529 View Post
    The problem is that most of the media is holding up a circus mirror that presents a very distorted view. Anything that gets them viewers and thus advertisers and thus the almighty dollar over all else.
    I can't buy that. I know there's a lot reported that people don't want to hear or see, but I have lived long enough to know that with a variety of sources one can reasonably separate wheat from chaff.

    It's society that is distorted - overcrowding and competition for resources will do that. Not to mention demagogues turning us against each other for their own purposes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    This is still true to this day as EG pointed out. Go back a bit to My Lai or even further in recent history to cavalry vs indians to see entire villages slaughtered.
    The difference is that today and in more recent years the innocents are less likely to be deliberately targeted. In this age of asymmetric warfare it is more likely that the innocents have been deliberately put in harms way for propaganda purposes by those being attacked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wp6529 View Post
    No, but a great many honerable people have died to obtain and preserve our freedoms, and I'm sure many more will sacrifice themselves for the greater good.
    Depends on who is in charge and their definition of "greater good". Think about that for a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    I can't buy that. I know there's a lot reported that people don't want to hear or see, but I have lived long enough to know that with a variety of sources one can reasonably separate wheat from chaff.

    It's society that is distorted - overcrowding and competition for resources will do that. Not to mention demagogues turning us against each other for their own purposes...
    No, the media presents almost exclusively the negative and sensationalized, and they present it entirely out of context and perspective. Ten people killed today in an attack by a YOUNG WHITE MALE!, ignoring the 25 people often minorities killed today in attacks often also by minorities in gang / drug related attacks, or the 50 people killed in auto accidents.

    I do agree that the combination of a growing population and shrinking pool of jobs is a recipe for disaster and one of the drivers for the current dissolution of global civilization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Would you be willing to tell a Newtown or Parkland parent that they're lying about their child being dead? Or are you saying government agents killed their children?
    The children that are dead are dead. Others saw something monstrous and will be affected for a long time. Remington did not sell the weapon to the perp. He killed his mother and stole it. The .223 with 40 grain bullets is made For small varmints. The animal using the gun stood over a child and kept shooting till there was no hope and moved onto another child. Hospital personnel were sad that there was no one to help.
    Suing Remington, what is the goal to punish and bankrupt a company and disarm people not responsible. That is where one issue is. Take away the guns first then something else later. Will government give back freedoms and rights after they are taken?
    Back to the OP's original question slowing or stopping the massacres. In a post about a year ago, I mentioned that if I saw a person using a bump stock at a range that I would offer some words of discouragement about the waste and nonsense of using them. Might make a wise person think twice, probably not do anything for a monster. Randy Woolls that I mentioned earlier had a foster mother that jumped through all kinds of hoops to help him when he was a boy. Family and friends did all they could also. Did not make any difference, he killed a woman at a drive in, set the ticket booth on fire and took her car in to watch the movie. The woman's son saw him in her car and the rest is history.
    Whether it is one woman at a drive in killed with a knife, a number of people killed with an AR, or a heavy truck a monster is a monster.
    link Randy Woolls Texas Execution

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    I would ban weapons who's sole purpose is mass human killings. Not hunting rifles.
    If you are referring to AR style rifles, they are not the same as the military uses. They are the right caliber for vermin and the semi-auto feature would be handy if you had lots of the right size vermin. Larger game only with proper bullets and good shot placement. It is not actually military grade as it is often called, just semi automatic and looks like the military version.
    The US government has practically given away hundreds of thousands of military weapons starting at $1.50 a piece. That is actual military not looks like military weapons. Most of these are still out there and in use.
    Personally I would not miss the AR style guns as I never had a use for one. Right now it is the first target, get it then work on the rest later. NUTS!

    Just for reference my son used a single shot 223 on pigs, sometimes he had to shoot them many times. I had several one shot kills on running pigs at 250 plus yards, but I used an 06.

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    Data to think on:

    1. There are on the order of 50 murders in the US every day - maybe it's 37, maybe it's 53 - but its something like 15K per year. Mass shootings gain a lot of visibility for drama, and I suppose because it's the hangouts, festivals, and schools, of mainstream folks that get hit. (In other words, the horrible rate at which young black men murder each other doesn't really count for politics and media.)

    2. In the 1966 Texas Clock Tower shooting some 14 people were killed (over 96 minutes!) - apparently with bolt action rifles. Speedy police (and armed citizen!) response apparently helps a lot. Banning weapons by type likely does not. ("Large Caliber" would not actually cover the famous AR15 which is, after all, a .22...)

    3. There are pretty good arguments that if all firearms disappeared from the US tomorrow, and no firearm murder was displaced by some other kind of murder (wildly implausible) that the murder rate in the US would *STILL* be *HIGHER* than most places in Western Europe. (There are some accounting problems - there are things we count as murder in the US that say Scotland apparently doesn't - having to do with whether there's been an indictment, etc.)

    4. Al Qaeda, the IRA, and various other groups have shown a remarkable ability to murder people with very crude explosive devices. Very strict firearm control in Ireland did not prevent The Troubles.

    5. The NRA is one, highly visible, lobbying arm for a very large group of people. Folks who cast scorn on the NRA fail to realize that several of the competing firearms rights lobby groups are much more hard core - and appear to be gaining enrollment as the NRA leadership besmirches itself with financial idiocy.

    6. Firearms adequate for mayhem are pretty simple to make in an industrialized society, and the combination of the web and the 1st amendment means that anybody highly motivated (nutcases often are) can learn to cobble a workable murder device (firearm, bomb, whatever) from basic chemistry and hardware store items. Also recall that the Oklahoma City bombing killed 168 people - more than any mass shooting - and did NOT depend on firearms. Thinking that the sort of nut job who shoots up a walmart won't learn to make a fuel/air bomb instead is naive.

    7. The web surely DOES magnify this, and so web infrastructure entites forching 8chan "off the air" or more realistically out of easy visibility -> marginalizing 8chan - will likely actually help some, for at least a while. Likewise, the instant very widespread reporting on these dramatic events has likely caused more of them. Deplatforming CNN might be as helpful as deplatforming 8chan.

    8. War, murder, oppressive behavoir towards women, are all actual norms of human history, across societies and ages. My personal view is that there are deep evolutionary/genetic/resource-balance reasons for this. (Grim, I tell you, reality is grim.)

    9. The "inequality" argument has some real problems. First, it appears to be happening basically everywhere - Sweden, Denmark, China - not just the US. And so things like hyper socialist or outright communist taxation and property manipulation don't seem to address it. Second, at least in the US, some part of the claims made about it appear to be due to issues of accounting - refusing to count home values, etc.

    That said - people, especially men, feeling there is no way "up" but via Extreme Assertiveness, likely DOES explain some large part of the mayhem - but it's not at all clear that any real world system can actually address it. At least in most societies, government only controls so much status - giving people large handouts or holding "the wealthy" down with horrendous tax rates may not help with the issue at all. It might make it worse. (Angry men doing mayhem to prove they are more than welfare drones...)

    Note that things like crime rates for China are no more to be believed than Chinese growth statistics - it is an information control state.

    10. To some degree (how large I do not know), globalization, and the panopticon of the web, may aggravate these problems - you not only have to compete in the local labor market, but with labor in China, India, Viet Nam, etc. And you read all about it on the web. So maybe the consumer-surplus of free trade that economists talk about isn't quite all it's cracked up to be.

    11. Mental health. Well, yes, society's treatment of it could sure be better, couldn't it? There are problems. Like even if you could somehow automagically find mentally ill people and lock them up, you'd have to pay for that, and the associates you pissed off might commit as much retaliatory mayhem as you avoided. And the current record for treatment of mental illness does not inspire confidence.

    Oh, and there's a nasty lesson from drunk driving lawmaking (I was stupid enough to join a citizen group working on it. Never have so many totally well meaning smart people been blocked by reality.) Suppose you could catch all drunk drivers, and fairly and reliably imprison them all for 30, 90, 365 days, as offenses mount. Problem will be solved, right?

    Wrong. First, at least in WA, we couldn't afford to lock all of the people the police DID actually catch (which is quite a lot it turns out.) Second, there appears to be basically no deterent effect at all. Third, you real quickly get a thing where the only small town doctor and small town nurse are in jail, and the social costs of locking them up exceed the social costs of letting them go. (This actually almost happened in a small town in Iowa near where I grew up...)

    OK, ban booze! That was tried, didn't work. Well, at least ban recreational drugs! Hasn't worked either - note the awesome political forces driving legalization of pot.

    What if it turns out that, say, 50% of all males have some level of detectable violent mental illness? Then what do you do?

    11. Note that firearms are by comparison quite rare in Brazil, yet they have a much higher murder rate than the US (order 6 times higher.) Weapons of all kinds are hyper controlled in Japan, yet their suicide rate is drastically higher than the US. (Order 18/100,000 in Japan, the leading cause of death of some demographics, versus somewhere between 10/100,000 and 13/100,000 in the US - and less of a demographic crises though of course still tragic.)

    12. In August of 2018 a person who didn't seem all that dangerous stole a horizon Q400 turbo prop, flew it around, and crashed it into Puget Sound. While there were jet fighter scrambled, but shooting it down would surely have rained hot fire on the ground. And that was plane stolen from a commercial airport in full view of ATC.

    You think some nut case deprived of a rifle can't cut the fence at the local small airport, steal a small plane, fly it well it enough to crash dive it into a festival, walmart, or nightlife district? You are mistaken. It can happen. It actually has happened. It will happen again.

    -----------------------

    Most of the arguments you hear right now will be between groups trying to use the issue as a lever for power. Ask all of the democrats (as an example) "If you could get the restrictions you want, BUT at the cost of the Democratic party being dissolved and all democratic politicians being totally forced from public life, would you take it?" They would of course say no. And the exact same thing applies to any political organization more than 10 days old.
    Last edited by bryan_machine; 08-08-2019 at 04:40 PM. Reason: grammer

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  11. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by FredC View Post
    If you are referring to AR style rifles, they are not the same as the military uses. They are the right caliber for vermin and the semi-auto feature would be handy if you had lots of the right size vermin. Larger game only with proper bullets and good shot placement. It is not actually military grade as it is often called, just semi automatic and looks like the military version.
    The US government has practically given away hundreds of thousands of military weapons starting at $1.50 a piece. That is actual military not looks like military weapons. Most of these are still out there and in use.
    Personally I would not miss the AR style guns as I never had a use for one. Right now it is the first target, get it then work on the rest later. NUTS!

    Just for reference my son used a single shot 223 on pigs, sometimes he had to shoot them many times. I had several one shot kills on running pigs at 250 plus yards, but I used an 06.
    I typically dispatch the bacon on my little farm homestead with an AR/SBR, one shot is usually good, but I like the quick followup if one doesn't do it since the pigs are ones we care for for quite some time before they are harvested. I dispatch a lot of rodentia getting into feed and whatnot with a .22 pistol with a suppressor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Ignorant? Rhetoric like that serves you poorly. Do not undercut whatever you're trying to present with such nonsense.

    Yes, a determined aggressor can put together all manner of diabolical devices and methods for mass killings. But it's not the work of a moment.

    Unlike a rapid-fire weapon, which serves to aid those having psychotic breaks, or a suddenly angered husband, or a driver who's just been cut off. Or, someone driven to their own internal despair of a moment, but a moment is all it takes (under a minute for nine dead in Ohio: Ohio shooting: gunman killed nine in less than one minute, says mayor – video | US news | The Guardian)

    So these angry young men may go out with a knife, or a baseball bat, or a car, but they will not be building truck bombs. If you wish to conflate these emotional acts with the calculations of a Bin Laden or the long laboring of a Timothy McVeigh, you torture logic beyond anything done at Guantanamo.
    I said "ignorant". As to your OCD fixation with the demonic power of firearms.

    You could still choose to enlighten yourself. Many of the worst recorded terrorism victim counts have been from faster, cheaper, lower-effort, and more deadly means than anything to do with a "shooter". Or with (formerly) tall buildings and aircraft.

    No need to torture logic to be AWARE of that history.

    Attempting to understanding the "why" of them - see Cinema Rex, Iran for how little effort it took and how fast and inescapable the disaster for over 400 victims - is what can be torturous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post

    Why? Because he (EG) calls out the USA governments actions around the globe? You dont want to know?
    No, because in this hateful, miserable little trolls mind the actions of the US government completely justifies some crazy bastards murdering innocent people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    One would have to be extremely skilled to empty 15 shots and reload one of those in 30 seconds, and oh btw kill 9 people in the process.
    Not so. AR is over-hyped, even for military use. Very.

    As to lever-actions? Magazine design of a Savage 99 supports reloading as one goes, retaining the balance of the magazine in reserve. True of MANY "all manual" long guns, and several semi-auto as well. BTW...turnbolts - and straight-pulls - are also faster than you might realize. Some had to be. Then proved to be. "Battle rifle" means what it says, SMLE, Schmidt-Rubin, or Mauser.

    Range and lethality of either also exceed that of the AR for most of the rounds they were chambered for. Accuracy is more than adequate for a perp to open the distance beyond law enforcement sidearm range, buying time. See "Lee Harvey Oswald".

    Save as one more set of illustrations that the firearm TYPE is no real barrier to madness, that is not germane, Dee.

    What IS germane - universally - is that NO Laws or bans are considered to apply to a nutcase BY the nutcase.

    That ONE nutcase rampages whilst all other souls on an entire continent, sane or otherwise, do NOT do so is no help to the victims of the bad-actor at all.

    An armed citizen in the zone could be, and they have been. See Texas Tower shooter -but one of many in our history.

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  17. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    I would ban weapons who's sole purpose is mass human killings. Not hunting rifles.

    As for clothing, I suspect the world is a better pace with both you and I in garments, I would not risk the horror of having those taken away.
    Could you please name a couple of items sold to civilians "who's sole purpose is mass human killings"?

    That's a trick question because the idea of "sole purpose" gets negated pretty quickly if large numbers of same item are purchased for other uses. I can't think of a single firearm sold today that fits your description. Even pistols bought for defensive purposes see actual firing mostly only on a range and they are carried for use against specific individual threats, not "mass human killings".

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    Less than human liberty.
    Guns do not equal liberty, guns are a liability. Liberty comes from mutual respect, not fear. The second amendment is not the definition of liberty. As a matter of fact, it can be argued that is not even an individual right, but a state right to maintain a state militia on the cheap. But hey this is not the first instance of the constitution being perverted into what it is not its initial intent. Madison saw a very important role for the militias, he elaborated this in the federalist papers.

    References to the Militia in The Federalist

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    I agree. I think that shootouts often are emulating TV. They had a great shootout, lots of fun so let's have one of our own.

    A while back there was one near the Crown Candy Company, a legendary restaurant. On the news, I saw yellow case markers with numbers in the 20s. These guys had 100 round magazines on ARs and sprayed the area. Somehow Crown Candy survives, I think partly because there is a lot of industry around it and consequently less population. People like me will drive across town for their sandwiches.

    Bill
    The last time I was there a few years ago the place was surrounded by police cars on every corner. I wouldn't go there at night even if they are giving candy away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    Guns do not equal liberty, guns are a liability. Liberty comes from mutual respect, not fear. The second amendment is not the definition of liberty. As a matter of fact, it can be argued that is not even an individual right, but a state right to maintain a state militia on the cheap. But hey this is not the first instance of the constitution being perverted into what it is not its initial intent. Madison saw a very important role for the militias, he elaborated this in the federalist papers.

    References to the Militia in The Federalist

    dee
    ;-D
    Show me a government that respects its people (all of them) and is guaranteed to always do so, and then we'll talk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Show me a government that respects its people (all of them) and is guaranteed to always do so, and then we'll talk.
    Swiss have got theyselves a fair good 'un.

    Then again, they would have, wouldn't they, what with a populace teen years to seniour citizen so heavily armed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Could you please name a couple of items sold to civilians "who's sole purpose is mass human killings"?

    That's a trick question because the idea of "sole purpose" gets negated pretty quickly if large numbers of same item are purchased for other uses. I can't think of a single firearm sold today that fits your description. Even pistols bought for defensive purposes see actual firing mostly only on a range and they are carried for use against specific individual threats, not "mass human killings".
    Give 'im 'is due. Go ahead and ban civilian purchase of AC130 gunships, then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Could you please name a couple of items sold to civilians "who's sole purpose is mass human killings"?
    You're missing the point. What keeps the government from becoming tyrannical? From ethnic cleansing? From stealing your money? From not representing your wishes in our representative government? Being afraid of the governed keeps the governing in check. 200 yrs ago you'd be tared and feathered (or hung from a lamp post) for less thanwhat our current government is doing.

    On the base level we are all animals. The idea that all you need is mutual respect is right up there with communism -- they will never work as they go against human nature. Those concepts haven't worked since sin entered the world. Sure, for decent people it goes a long way. But do you think the ANC had mutual respect for their neighbors while placing a tire filled with gasoline around their neck, or when they lit it ablaze?

    When push comes to shove it's about pushing and shoving, the larger and stronger get respect from the small and weak. This is just the way it works in the real world. Fire arms are simple a force multiplier to make the weak a threat to the strong. The most violent places in the world are less violent when the populace can defend itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    The question is- what can we do as individuals or a group to bring the firearms world around to a more rational state?
    I know 3 out of 4 of these guys believed in gun control. And then murdered their people.

    The eight despots we love to hate - in pictures - Telegraph

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