What can we as individuals or a group do about gun violence? - Page 60
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  1. #1181
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    There were many troublesome details associated with the events on 9/11 and the aftermath. Most of the truth is cloaked and buried amidst the horrible loss of life.

    No, Let us not forget.

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    I do think we have a problem in America when we have people go into a building and murder defenseless and innocent people.... but my question is why is this happening so often now and yet 30 years ago... IT NEVER HAPPENED. We had high capacity magazines 30 years ago. We had assault weapons too. And we had mental illness too.
    What we did not have was violent video games in which the winner of the game was the person who killed the most people.
    12 year olds spend 6 hours a day playing a game in which the winner kills the most people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tim9lives View Post
    I do think we have a problem in America when we have people go into a building and murder defenseless and innocent people.... but my question is why is this happening so often now and yet 30 years ago... IT NEVER HAPPENED. We had high capacity magazines 30 years ago. We had assault weapons too. And we had mental illness too.
    What we did not have was violent video games in which the winner of the game was the person who killed the most people.
    12 year olds spend 6 hours a day playing a game in which the winner kills the most people.
    A US Army psychologist in a radio interview perhaps 25 years ago said the same thing. They used to teach shooting on bull's eye targets but found in the Korean war that soldiers trained that way did not shoot at people. The army changed to pop up targets and point and shoot reactions. The army tries to do it in a manner that only responds to enemies. He was extremely concerned about video games that were then becoming popular because they taught that the response to anything was point and shoot. Even a Navy Seal said that in high stress situations, you fall back to your training without analyzing. Even someone who is presumed to have been trained to handle almost anything just reacts.

    A video store owner said that in Webster, where I am based, the only reason to have slasher flicks was to show variety. In the "Ghetto" children will watch them over and over. Why, I leave to the psychologists, but that is the reality. As they say, you sow and reap.

    My personal opinion, I have no data to prove it, is that they see shootouts on TV constantly, exciting and great fun, so they want to have a shootout of their own.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    I agree in principle, but for every one of those convictions the court claimed to know beyond any reasonable doubt.
    Yup. That's the biggest reason to be against capital punishment, as far as I can see. That and the cost. Although one would like to see certain people put to sleep, the number of bad convictions makes capital punishment kinda iffy to me. Make that very iffy.

    Maybe make the test much more stringent than "reasonable doubt" for capital cases ? Like, when you have it on video, we can be pretty sure the guy did it ?

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    I have no problem with the death penalty from a moral point of view, any more than I have a problem with reasonable firearms restrictions.
    My objection is that governments are so inefficient and self serving that they cannot be trusted to do a good job.
    Please tell me how one of the most despised (I hope) criminals, Jeffery Epstein, can commit suicide inside one of the most secure prisons with constant watch and security cameras.
    Yeah... He's in Tel Aviv recovering from plastic surgery, and the swapped body is now as inaccessible as that of Osama Bin Laden.

    epsteins-friends.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    You need 100 to 200 rounds to shoot a trap competition, not including any practice or warm up. You should be shooting at least a couple hundred rounds a month, preferably over a thousand rounds a month, to be in practice. Pro shooters may use 30,000 rounds a year.

    What effect would ammo limits have? How many months would someone need to save up to shoot 20 people? Even if you're talking about something stupid like three rounds a month, not very long at all. The only effect would be that the armed people of the nation, otherwise known as the militia, would be unpracticed, or in the terms of the past, not well regulated.
    I was thinking (1) 25rd box as an extreme rule. I wasn't suggesting that was an appropriate amount to be a successful trap shooter. I personally don't believe ammo limits would have any effect at all and wasn't endorsing them. It is a proposal that the gun grabbing state I live in has made before albeit unsuccessfully but Cuomo is essentially the emperor now having no opposition in the state senate so I expect it to surface again. I believe the specifics were something to the effect of 2x a guns capacity every 90 days and NY has 10rd capacity law so a max of 20rds in 3 months. This of course would also require them to document exactly what firearms you own in order to calculate how much ammunition you're allowed to buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim rozen View Post
    It's *easy* to not understand. Three easy steps:

    1) see/read/hear an idea that violates your preconcieved notions about the world.

    2) place fingers firmly in ears and chant "la la la la la la."

    3) remove fingers, exclaim 'I simply don't understand!"
    Congratulations!


    You just EXACTLY described yourself, gustafson, and a couple of others who keep trying to push gun control here.

    You keep trying to link ONE variable (gun ownership) to murder rates while I have posted links to studies by real scientists who used regression analysis to analyze multiple factors.

    Then you engage in insults and abuse, proving that you have nothing real to add to the discussion.

    While you always try to discredit our sources as "right wing" you deliberately ignore that so many of the links to data provided by myself and others are websites that have ".gov" in the address. Are you seriously suggesting that all these government institutions are part of some "vast right wing conspiracy"?

    Sorry Hillary, that doesn't fly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Yup. That's the biggest reason to be against capital punishment, as far as I can see. That and the cost. Although one would like to see certain people put to sleep, the number of bad convictions makes capital punishment kinda iffy to me. Make that very iffy.

    Maybe make the test much more stringent than "reasonable doubt" for capital cases ? Like, when you have it on video, we can be pretty sure the guy did it ?
    While I agree with most of your post, I have to ask ...

    Have you ever seen Jurassic Park on a theater screen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    Gus,
    You are avoiding every statistic that we bring up. As you get older, hopefully you will learn that people are the problem, not the inanimate objects. We’ve shown that more guns do not equate to more deaths. I’m actually in awe of how blind you are to common sense.
    Summary: you are trying disarm ALL to save some, which historically hasn’t worked. This will be a civil war if the govt is stupid enough to try and disarm its citizens.
    YOu have not posted any statistics

    you made up some assumption WRT the death penalty, going back a few pages I see nothing more

    again conspiracy theory language, disarm its citizens

    by and large, gun control states are safer than free gun states, this is the issue.

    Mass has been controlled by Democrats by veto proof majority for how many decades

    They haven't come for Scott's guns yet, but he is still afraid

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    First: One cannot select which gun deaths are acceptable and which are not. The implication would be that if the number of suicide deaths skyrocketed, that their opinions would change. They would not, and they have as much as said so, nothing comes between them and their guns

    Second:I merely used the 'logical fallacy' I quoted, not my choice, the previous posters

    Third:Taken away, again, please, list the number of guns taken away, this fear based argument. WE are taking away, rights taken away. We are talking about appropriate regulation, which does not mean all regulation is appropriate, or that they are coming for your guns. Freedom of speech is regulated[slander, fire in a theater, threats etc]

    Fourth: every industrialized country has a lower gun death rate, an lower firearms ownership, completely logical statement, it would be up to you to explain why it does not follow. If I listed one country, that would not follow.

    Let me list the countries below us in gun death rate
    Panama
    Columbia
    Braizl
    Jamaica
    Guatamala
    Eswatini
    El Salvador
    Venezuela
    Honduras


    It is much easier to do than listing the countries that do better
    List of countries that have more guns per capita.........

    yeah,

    WE WIN!
    Refute any assertation I made, I'm waiting. You just put more word salad in there like you thought that might help.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rewt View Post
    Refute any assertation I made, I'm waiting. You just put more word salad in there like you thought that might help.
    I responded to your last post, otherwise you will have to be more specific

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    Of the ten most densly populated states, where we would expect crime to be higher simply through proximity if all things were otherwise equal:

    4 are above the national average murder rate
    6 are below.[2017 UCR]

    the 4 above:
    OH
    PA
    DE
    MD
    aggregate gun owners score per guns and ammo: 32.5 [lower is better for gun owners]
    Best States for Gun Owners (2018)
    average murder rate 6.25


    the 6 below:
    NJ
    RI
    MA
    CT
    NY
    FL
    aggregate ranking: 43.5
    average murder rate: 3.1

    that is correct, you are safer in MA, RI, CT, NY, NJ all in the 10 'worst'

    By far

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    Once again you have to toss in the personal insults, typical for those with straw man arguments. So what are YOU afraid of? Perhaps you fear that armed citizens will someday commit pogroms?

    Your attempts to link homicide rates with gun ownership are fraud science. You attempt to paint with a broad brush by looking only at statistics for entire states which is deceptive. While Chicago has a staggeringly high murder rate communities only a few miles away are very safe. The same holds true for many other states.

    When someone points out some states that defy your linkage you throw in "density" as a dodge. Like all your kind you will use any tactic to push your agenda. Fortunately for the rest of us computers and the internet have made it far easier to analyze publicly available data and many studies do not support your conclusions.

    REAL scientific studies analyze death rates against many variables including economic status and race. When someone points that out you shriek "racist, racist" despite the fact that many black leaders acknowledge that the rates of murder in several black communities are many times higher than for the rest of the population. One of the studies I posted a link to found a VERY strong correlation between density of GANGS in an area and murder rates.

    Interestingly, while some studies DID find a somewhat positive link between population density (in an area, not a whole state) that correlation was not as strong when certain socioeconomic factors were not also present.

    Most studies also found that suicide INCREASED as population decreased. That so many of your sources are from organizations pushing gun control is no surprise, as are their "scientific" conclusions.

    I dispute your frequent claim that gun control has made Massachusetts safer and offer this link. DISCLOSURE: This article is from a pro-gun organization. That does not mean the charts and conclusions are incorrect but they strongly suggest that your claims are bogus.

    Massachusetts Gun Control Success – A False & Dangerous Narrative - GOAL.ORG

    ma-national-gun-homicide-rates.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    YOu have not posted any statistics

    you made up some assumption WRT the death penalty, going back a few pages I see nothing more

    again conspiracy theory language, disarm its citizens

    by and large, gun control states are safer than free gun states, this is the issue.

    Mass has been controlled by Democrats by veto proof majority for how many decades

    They haven't come for Scott's guns yet, but he is still afraid

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    ever the snowflake, so easily annoyed


    density as a dodge?

    really?

    so if there are 2 people in a 10 square mile area, they are just as likely to kill each other as the 20000 in the same area

    you have 'no' science at all


    what your graph shows is that although mass has just over 2 percent of the population 6.9 of 325 million] it has under 1 percent if the gun related homicides[99 of 10530]

    you keep [over and over and over] confusing raw numbers unrelated to population because our high population makes the numbers appear 'big'

    If a movie serial killer announced one of the people in the room was going to be killed, would you rather be in a room with 1000 people or 2?

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    Default "Tough" laws are no good if laxly enforced

    I've long said that the problem in Mass. is tough laws, lousy enforcement of them against criminals. Even Boston's liberal Democrat Mayor seems to agree. He apparently wants the Legislature to increase penalties for illegal possession, but if they are (under)enforced the same as current penalties it will not help.

    "BOSTON – After a 24-year-old woman on Monday became the eighth person killed by gun violence in less than two weeks in Boston, Mayor Marty Walsh this week blasted the state's gun laws for "getting kind of soft," and suggested he would look to Beacon Hill to get tougher.

    Walsh called the murder of Alicia Restrepo in Dorchester on Monday night a "sad situation," and said that access to guns continues to be problem in the city where police have confiscated 575 illegal firearms this year."

    "I know we want to decriminalize a lot of offenses and I agree with that and I think that there are a lot of cases where we should look at, instead of incarceration, treatment, but in some of these gun cases we might need to go tougher with them. I think we need to start holding people accountable who have access to these guns."

    "Under state law, illegal possession of a firearm carries a penalty in state prison of not less than two and one-half years nor more than five years, or for not less than 18 months nor more than two and one-half years in a jail or house of correction."

    Walsh: Violence shows need to address 'soft' gun laws | Regional News | newburyportnews.com

    "Toughest in the nation" laws when passed, yet now they are "too soft". Get the picture?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post

    REAL scientific studies analyze death rates against many variables including economic status and race. When someone points that out you shriek "racist, racist" despite the fact that many black leaders acknowledge that the rates of murder in several black communities are many times higher than for the rest of the population. [B]One of the studies I posted a link to found a VERY strong correlation between density of GANGS in an area and murder rates.
    They also found that high school graduation had a noticeable positive effect, which they attributed to simply keeping boys off the streets during their peak criminal years at 18. They also found that economic disparity was a factor. Not poverty, but the difference between richest and poorest. These factors affected boys but to a much smaller degree on girls. The typical criminal is a black high school drop out in a poor area near an affluent one.

    When you read this next, don't start screaming "racist fascist pig Nazi". This is from a friend who spent most of his career as principle of several St. Louis schools. He regards the black education problem as hopeless. One magnet school had an entrance requirement of IQ 110. People complained that it was all white and Asian, so they lowered the entrance requirements. To get 50% black students, they had to lower it to 85.

    He doesn't have a opinion about gun control one way or the other.

    Bill

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  24. #1197
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    When you read this next, don't start screaming "racist fascist pig Nazi". This is from a friend who spent most of his career as principle of several St. Louis schools. He regards the black education problem as hopeless. One magnet school had an entrance requirement of IQ 110. People complained that it was all white and Asian, so they lowered the entrance requirements. To get 50% black students, they had to lower it to 85.
    Christ that's sad. In the 1950's 85 was considered mentally retarded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 9100 View Post
    They also found that high school graduation had a noticeable positive effect, which they attributed to simply keeping boys off the streets during their peak criminal years at 18. They also found that economic disparity was a factor. Not poverty, but the difference between richest and poorest. These factors affected boys but to a much smaller degree on girls. The typical criminal is a black high school drop out in a poor area near an affluent one.

    When you read this next, don't start screaming "racist fascist pig Nazi". This is from a friend who spent most of his career as principle of several St. Louis schools. He regards the black education problem as hopeless. One magnet school had an entrance requirement of IQ 110. People complained that it was all white and Asian, so they lowered the entrance requirements. To get 50% black students, they had to lower it to 85.

    He doesn't have a opinion about gun control one way or the other.

    Bill
    They'll never fix the black education problem unless they can fix the black communities. Years ago black communities were places with strict values and strict discipline. Children had mothers and fathers and the community was like an extended family. I've been told by people who grew up in that environment "You couldn't get away with anything. When your parents weren't watching, your neighbors were".

    My family knew a white woman who grew up poor in rural Alabama well before WWII. She said her father strongly encouraged her to play only with the black children because they had better values than many of the poor whites, who often got into trouble.

    Today we have entire neighborhoods where young single mothers outnumber conventional families and struggle to control their children, especially when they reach their teens. Add in all factors and it's no surprise there's so much trouble.

    How "we" solve it is beyond me because the problem has grown so large even many prominent black leaders despair of making meaningful change.

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