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  1. #1261
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy2 View Post
    You indirectly bring up a point in what has changed in our culture. Prior to the late 60's, the police were usually considered honorable. There was also an expectation that we all as citizens needed to get involved in maintaining order.

    Several things happened in the late 60s that changed how the population interacts with the low enforcement and how law enforcement expected the population to act.
    Not quite. The Kitty Genovese murder was in March 1964. Look up the Kitty Genovese effect or the bystander effect. About that time, 1963 or later, I don't remember the exact time, I was on Gaslight Square in St. Louis one evening. I was with a writer for The Saint Louis Magazine and his girlfriend. He was a good writer and even his worst enemies agreed that he was a talented artist, but he was a true sociopath, would blow the lid off a Hare Psychopathy Test. A woman started screaming that she was dying and similar histronics. She may have simply been drunk, but more than one person has died when people ignored such pleas. The writer's interest was only if there was a story in it, total lack of concern for the woman's well being. One person did do something, got the police and had an ambulance take her to a hospital. As all this was happening, spectators formed a circle around it, drawing the line that one had to stay outside of to keep from being involved. I realized that I was one of those people, just being a spectator, and I vowed to never take that role again. I have made a fool of myself a few times, but I also have helped people on occasion.

    RE Kitty Genevese, another woman who was at similar risk got the largest switchblade stiletto that would fit in her purse. When someone attacked her, she cut the guy up a bit and survived. The New York police arrested her for having a concealed weapon. She appeared on the Carson show, displaying a similar knife. She was totally unrepentant. She said that if convicted, she would do her time and when she got out, would get another knife just like it because she was not going to be the next Kitty Genovese, The city eventually dropped the charge.

    Bill

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    It's not guns, it's culture.

    Gun Crime In New Hampshire Is Well Below National Average | New Hampshire Public Radio

    Do states with stricter gun control laws have fewer gun deaths? No. Do they have fewer homicides and suicides? Definitely not - Crime Prevention Research CenterCrime Prevention Research Center

    Our (Massachusetts) neighbors Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire are the three safest states. Note that Massachusetts, with far stricter laws, is #10.

    Violent crime rates are 1, 2, 3, and 26 (Massachusetts) the only reason Mass. is even at #10 instead of lower is because our low property crime rate (3) ranks us above states with lower violent crime rates.

    Safest States in the U.S.
    Last edited by Scottl; 09-14-2019 at 02:25 PM.

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    Do a criminal data base search instead of a background check.

    If your name isn't in that data base then you should be cleared no questions asked for 50 state CC.

    Or we could talk about it, realizing that the law abiding are going to get screwed in the end..

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    The problem I have with Xi ... dictators for life, is the way to throw them out is with an armed revolution -- not the ballot box. And when that dictator has full control of the press, Internet, phones, army, police, courts, advanced surveillance, when the government even ranks the "social credit" of each citizen -- and there's no 1st or 2nd Amendment -- the chances of that are pretty dim.
    You've been reading too many Henry Luce tracts.

    This is not how it works in China. The people in the government are not all-powerful nor are they monolithic. There are factions. A lot of factions. Performance determines who gets to hold the reins. For example, controlling everything did not help the gang of four, and deng was in jail as a reactionary before he was president. China is democratic, but in a different way than you are capable of imagining Every district of every city has district "management" (for lack of a better term.) Every grandma and grandma, every upset adolescrent, every pissed-off middle-aged Chinese lady has access to the local government. I've even made suggestions to the district office a couple of times. Their doors are always open (unless they are at lunch, which seems to last from eleven til two )

    What people say and do moves up the chain. Most of these people actually listen, and a lot of them are quite bright. I find this a remarkable contrast with the US, where your elected officials really don't give a crap. They are going to do what they want no matter what (e.g. the Golden Gate Bridge District and/or Nancy Pelosi, Barbara Boxer, etc.)

    The people of California are nowhere near as weird as their elected officials. Please don't tell me "they were elected" because what choice did we really have ? Donald Trump or Hillary, be still my heart. Or the fools now milling around who will run against the Donald in a year. He's going to win, you know. The Democrats don't have a brain in their heads. Not one. So please don't whine to me about democracy and dictators. Tweedledee vs Tweedledum is not any better.

    Your fears are the result of reading sensationalist crap. Besides which, why the hell should you care what another country does ? Their country, their life, their problem. How about physician, heal thyself before you start pointing fingers ? The dipshit in Washington now thinks he is King and you do nothing. The press is owned by three people who all have the same opinion and you rejoice. You had the first amendment while Richard Nixon was bombing the hell out of neutral countries and did nothing. You had the first amendment when Richard Nixon was taking $100,000 bribes (documented) and did nothing. You had the first amendment when Oliver North took a fall and did nothing. You had the first amendment when Edward Medina and Willliam Calley murdered hundreds in cold blood and did nothing. You had the first amendment when WIll Rogers III shot down a civilian airliner, and he got a medal while you did nothing.

    What good is it ? Window dressing. A pretty coat of whitewash. Your government doesn't give a shit what you think (Bill Clinton blatantly said as much) and the second-amendment-armed populace does nothing. They should be surrounding Congress with those assault weapons -- that's why they were guaranteed that right - and demanding their country back, but so far, zilch.

    What can I say ? Xi is a smarter, more rational, more intelligent, listens to the populace, all around better leader than the Donald will ever be. Plus he's really good for the black hair dye industry. Your little girl fears don't worry me and your "free speech" is a joke.

    (And here you are, in the land of the free, arguing that we need more "reasonable regulation" ! to infringe a right that the people of the US have had for 250 years. Why ? Because of 25 deaths a year. There are more deaths from people eating a can of spoiled sardines. It's not a problem.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    . . . Your fears are the result of reading sensationalist crap. Besides which, why the hell should you care what another country does ? Their country, their life, their problem. How about physician, heal thyself before you start pointing fingers ? . . .
    More like history books, the ones with Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin in them. And then their modern equivalents like Putin, Assad, Kim . . . heck we've already been through the list. Powerful dictators can do a lot of collateral damage.

    Right now Xi is the world's most powerful dictator. And, as you say, he's smart.

    Somehow I'm not entirely comforted that China's expanding military, re-education camps, support of North Korea, strangle-hold on some materials, espionage, IP theft, space war plans, etc. are nothing to even ponder, what with all those Chinese grandmothers having our back. For every dictator who starts out as "benevolent" seems that 9 of 10 turn oppressive as they face increasing opposition in the years and decades ahead.

    As far as the "physician heal thyself" suggestion, that's basically the suggestion you've chosen to ignore and why I bother to respond to your US:bad, China:good posts. If I start or respond to a post, it's usually about what we as US citizens can do to improve things -- very much in the spirit of healing ourselves.

    Your posts, from China, are typically about how screwed up the US is -- and doomed to failure. So, there's no healing. And, should anyone point out that we're not really so doomed to failure -- and especially that you could find similar or greater problems to heal in your adopted country -- and it's back to how terrible the US is. US ponders restricting sales of guns to nut jobs. Terrible. China restricts guns all around. Bravo.

    EG - you're free here to keep telling us how China will bury us. Sometimes you're on target. And, your attitude is probably reflective of a billion or so of your new found compatriots and worth understanding.

    Just don't expect to not get pushback when the facts are wrong or incomplete.

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    PaulM, if you like that sort of reading, get a book called "Hitler and I" by Otto Strasser. It says the same things about Hitler that everyone else says but it was written in 1939, when Hitler was at the peak of his power. It also contains one of the most prophetic statements ever. As Otto and brother Gregor were parting company for what turned out to be the last time, one of them said "That man will end up blowing his own brains out." The other replied "Only if there is sufficient audience to appreciate the drama of the moment." Quote from memory, possibly not perfectly accurate but correct in meaning.

    Bill

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    Bill, I enjoy the bits of history, from what must be wide-ranging reading, that you often bring to threads. Thanks.

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    [QUOTE=EmanuelGoldstein;3413618] Because of 25 deaths a year.

    You shoot yourself in the foot. If an elemetary school in CT had kids sicken and die from tainted food,
    a) the manufacturer of that food would be sued, and probably go out of business, and b) whomever
    was running the food service there would be fired and sued, and the school adminstration would
    probably change hands. Insurance companies for the various entities would be working overtime.

    Kill 'em with guns? No lawsuits, the manufacturers are immune eh? No insurance invoved there, either.

    Sardines, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    It's not guns, it's culture.

    Gun Crime In New Hampshire Is Well Below National Average | New Hampshire Public Radio

    Do states with stricter gun control laws have fewer gun deaths? No. Do they have fewer homicides and suicides? Definitely not - Crime Prevention Research CenterCrime Prevention Research Center

    Our (Massachusetts) neighbors Maine, Vermont, and New Hampshire are the three safest states. Note that Massachusetts, with far stricter laws, is #10.

    Violent crime rates are 1, 2, 3, and 26 (Massachusetts) the only reason Mass. is even at #10 instead of lower is because our low property crime rate (3) ranks us above states with lower violent crime rates.

    Safest States in the U.S.
    population density

    keep hammering away at how safe states are when no one lives there

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    [QUOTE=jim rozen;3413769]
    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Because of 25 deaths a year.

    You shoot yourself in the foot. If an elemetary school in CT had kids sicken and die from tainted food,
    a) the manufacturer of that food would be sued, and probably go out of business, and b) whomever
    was running the food service there would be fired and sued, and the school adminstration would
    probably change hands. Insurance companies for the various entities would be working overtime.

    Kill 'em with guns? No lawsuits, the manufacturers are immune eh? No insurance invoved there, either.

    Sardines, eh?
    Not a valid comparison. If a manufacturer supplied good food and someone deliberately poisoned it or caused botulinum to grow in it, the manufacturer would not be liable The lawyers might cook up some charge like the packaging allowed someone to alter the product, Tylenol comes to mind, but if I make baseball bats and someone uses one in a murder, it isn't my fault.

    Bill

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    I would almost imagine that a legal precept similar to the first sale doctrine would protect manufactures; of food ,goods, arms ,machines etc.

    Logically speaking unless it was a manufacturing defect or food born disease traceable back to the original manufacturer, Manufacturers are in the clear.

    I wish someone would explain to me how the manufactures of anything are liable for the actions of the idiots, who handled the product incorrectly or illegally....

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    Quote Originally Posted by gustafson View Post
    population density

    keep hammering away at how safe states are when no one lives there
    Population demographics, manners, and culture.

    Keep hammering away at how safe states are when they keep enacting more and more gun laws to curb violence that keeps increasing.

    Five days, 17 shootings in Boston - The Boston Globe

    Nonfatal shootings in Boston jump by nearly 20% – Boston Herald

    “If you solve the crime and make people do the time, it gives us a little peace of mind"
    Mary Franklin, founder of Women Survivors of Homicide

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    Quote Originally Posted by JS View Post
    I would almost imagine that a legal precept similar to the first sale doctrine would protect manufactures; of food ,goods, arms ,machines etc.

    Logically speaking unless it was a manufacturing defect or food born disease traceable back to the original manufacturer, Manufacturers are in the clear.

    I wish someone would explain to me how the manufactures of anything are liable for the actions of the idiots, who handled the product incorrectly or illegally....
    I'll explain it. A small but very vocal group of people with a pathological distrust of ordinary people want to deprive those ordinary people of arms and will do and say ANYTHING to achieve that goal.

    If there were no crime or murders they'd still be pushing their citizen disarmament laws, using whatever pretext they could think of.

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    I knew that, I just want some left leaning psychopath, who wants to treat people like children to say it...

    You know the ones, people who think they know what is best for everyone else. The ones who like to spend and tax make promises they can't keep, use legalizes means of theft to rob us of our productivity. They turn rights into privileges by telling us to pay a tax for a license.

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    Back to the subject of false claims by gun control advocates.

    One of the most frequent claims is that crime guns in Massachusetts originate mostly from our neighboring states and that their looser laws make it easier for Mass. criminals to get guns "an easy drive away".

    That doesn't match the results in this ATF report, which found that 30% of traced crime guns came from within Massachusetts with faraway Florida next, followed by Texas.

    This is the chart from page 16

    atf-trace-state.jpg

    https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...n1pdf/download

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    My company makes medical devices. We need to go through a ton of testing to ensure that our product is safe and effective for the intended use. A surgeon is perfectly free to use our products for other purposes in what's called "off label use". If they do so and someone get's hurt, we're not liable, the surgeon is.

    As mentioned above, a company makes a wooden club. Throughout most of human history the primary purpose of these has been to bash heads in. But this company says it's for hitting balls. If someone uses it to bash heads in, the company is not responsible.

    If a firearm manufacturer says the purposes of their products are hunting, target shooting, and defense against violent criminals, and someone uses one "off label", the company bears no responsibility.

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    Just saw this article on how a gallup poll found 83% of americans blame the mass shootings on mental health issues, The second link is directly to the poll itself.

    83% Say Mental Health To Blame For Mass Shootings, Gallup Poll Finds | Zero Hedge

    More Blaming Extremism, Heated Rhetoric for Mass Shootings

    Being a poll, you have to ask what is the poll trying to achieve, or show?
    One of the ZH commentors may have hit on it, here is one comment from first link:

    "This is a manipulative BS article designed to advance a narrative and gain acceptance of "Red Flag Laws", expansion of mental health industrial complex, and the police state. The reason for the increase in shootings and suicides is because of the mental health industrial complex expanded their business model to the youth of the nation. Inventing all kinds of mental health conditions/disorders in children (children being children is now a mental disorder that must be treated with drugs)....and of course, no one could have predicted that prescribing these drugs to children (whose minds and brains still growing) would have negative side effects. These shootings/suicides are a direct result of the Mental Health Industrial Complex ...expansion into our school systems. That expansion was planned and purposeful and the results predictable...it served many purposes but, here are a couple that are obvious. 1. Customer base expansion $$$. 2. Creation of drug induced "real" mental health problems. Once put on the drugs as children they will be on the drugs as adults. The MHIC created the problem and now the manipulative narrative seeks to convince us that further expansion of the MHIC across all aspects of society will help the nation avoid shootings/suicides. Soon guns will not be the problem...because everybody will be diagnosed with some form of mental or antisocial disorder and thus, on a "no gun list". The questions/stats described in the article are a manipulation...to get the answers they want."


    Is the new goal of gun control types to pass all kinds of "red flag" BS so it is possible to have firearms removed from the person who is being called "crazy" under these new red flag laws?

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    Follow up to the previous post. As we know, and have discussed before, pharmaceuticals seem to be the common link between mass shooters. This is pointed out in the article. Names of the shooters and what drugs they were prescribed is in the linked article:

    The one thing that nearly every mass shooting has in common… and it isn’t guns – NaturalNews.com

    From the link:
    "Those focusing on further firearms bans or magazine restrictions are clearly focusing on the wrong issue and asking the wrong questions, either as a deliberate attempt to hide these links, or out of complete and utter ignorance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Just saw this article on how a gallup poll found 83% of americans blame the mass shootings on mental health issues, The second link is directly to the poll itself.

    83% Say Mental Health To Blame For Mass Shootings, Gallup Poll Finds | Zero Hedge

    More Blaming Extremism, Heated Rhetoric for Mass Shootings

    Being a poll, you have to ask what is the poll trying to achieve, or show?
    One of the ZH commentors may have hit on it, here is one comment from first link:

    "This is a manipulative BS article designed to advance a narrative and gain acceptance of "Red Flag Laws", expansion of mental health industrial complex, and the police state. The reason for the increase in shootings and suicides is because of the mental health industrial complex expanded their business model to the youth of the nation. Inventing all kinds of mental health conditions/disorders in children (children being children is now a mental disorder that must be treated with drugs)....and of course, no one could have predicted that prescribing these drugs to children (whose minds and brains still growing) would have negative side effects. These shootings/suicides are a direct result of the Mental Health Industrial Complex ...expansion into our school systems. That expansion was planned and purposeful and the results predictable...it served many purposes but, here are a couple that are obvious. 1. Customer base expansion $$$. 2. Creation of drug induced "real" mental health problems. Once put on the drugs as children they will be on the drugs as adults. The MHIC created the problem and now the manipulative narrative seeks to convince us that further expansion of the MHIC across all aspects of society will help the nation avoid shootings/suicides. Soon guns will not be the problem...because everybody will be diagnosed with some form of mental or antisocial disorder and thus, on a "no gun list". The questions/stats described in the article are a manipulation...to get the answers they want."


    Is the new goal of gun control types to pass all kinds of "red flag" BS so it is possible to have firearms removed from the person who is being called "crazy" under these new red flag laws?
    Yes. The strategy we've seen in Mass. has been to keep creating new classes of prohibited person. The 1998 law stripped something like 2/3 of existing licensees (FID and LTC) of their licenses. Many of them held licenses 30 to 40 years after their disqualifying offenses which had not been disqualifiers until AFTER the law was changed decades after the fact.

    The danger with all these laws is that they are so easy to make changes to later, slipped in with other bills. A red flag law that initially only allows petitions by family members or police can easily be modified later to add former coworkers, the neighbor you don't speak to or even the guy you chatted with for 3 minutes in a checkout line.

    Here's a screen capture from one of our recent gun law changes. This is part of the actual ERPO (Extreme Risk Protective Order) aka "red flag" section. These are written by lawyers in such a manner that the average person could never understand what is actually being done because they continually amend existing gun laws instead of passing stand-alone bills.

    acts-2018-red-flag.jpg

    See how they define "family or household member" to include ex wives, ex girlfriends or the former fiance you broke it off with, or even a former roommate (perhaps the one you threw out for non payment of rent). Related by blood or marriage could include distant cousins and even one of your crazy and vindictive former in-laws. These laws are EVIL!

    “Family or household member”, a person who: (i) is or was married to the respondent; (ii) is or was residing with the respondent in the same household; (iii) is or was related by blood or marriage to the respondent; (iv) has or is having a child in common with the respondent, regardless of whether they have ever married or lived together; (v) is or has been in a substantive dating relationship with the respondent; or (vi) is or has been engaged to the respondent.

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