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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Definitely at least two shooters in different locations. One of the commentors under your video said he recognized the sound as an M240B:

    YouTube

    Sounds about right to me.

    Another odd thing is how intermittent it was. There would be a string of shots, then a long pause, then another string of shots. That's not how someone looking to maximize effectiveness would act.

    On bump stocks:

    YouTube
    I knew it was a bump stock or similar the night it happened. If you listen closely to recordings of the gunfire you will note the variations in the cyclic rate. Full autos don't vary. The bump stock crap is very sensitive to hand position, rigidity of trigger hand, tension on the fore end and other factors to make it work. If you just acquire a bump stock and think you can play full auto you will be disappointed. Pretty sure that many people fire as mush as 500 rounds to be proficient in the pseudo "full auto". Then since you can't hold it against your shoulder you have minimal aim ability and you find that you have a toy with a very expensive appetite.
    I

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    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    I knew it was a bump stock or similar the night it happened. If you listen closely to recordings of the gunfire you will note the variations in the cyclic rate. Full autos don't vary. The bump stock crap is very sensitive to hand position, rigidity of trigger hand, tension on the fore end and other factors to make it work. If you just acquire a bump stock and think you can play full auto you will be disappointed. Pretty sure that many people fire as mush as 500 rounds to be proficient in the pseudo "full auto". Then since you can't hold it against your shoulder you have minimal aim ability and you find that you have a toy with a very expensive appetite.
    I
    Problem with the official story is that he was firing from quite a distance and even with pseudo automatic fire people tend to run and take cover before you can do too much damage.

    Also, the coverage I originally saw had moments where two weapons with different cyclic rates were firing at the same time.

    The LVPD was doing a great job of investigating before the feds swooped in and grabbed all the evidence, leading many to suspect a coverup and a cover story. Almost immediately after the Vegas event there was a massive roundup in Saudi Arabia amidst claims of an attempted coup. The official story was "corruption" but the urgency with which people were rounded up indicates something more serious. A Saudi prince who co-owns the top five floors was one of those arrested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Once again you illustrate the major fallacy behind gun control, which is that "the average person" is somehow a ticking time bomb just waiting to go off.

    That is an elitist/collectivist viewpoint that is alien to the very core of traditional philosophy upon which the country was founded.

    The founders trusted the people more than they did government and wrote a document, The Constitution of the United States of America, that specifically empowered the people while placing limits on government power. Today's collectivists want to reverse that to empower the government while placing all kinds of strict limits on the people. The fact that they have been so successful at it for over a century has only emboldened them to press for more. If they succeed, at the end of it we wind up looking more like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union than the constitutional republic they left us.

    As for your questions, I live in a state with ALL you have described. We have licensing with training requirements that include written tests. We have a storage law that requires all firearms not in use must be "secured against unauthorized use". The law currently allows for the use of trigger and cable locks as well as "locked containers" that can include the trunk of a car. There is a referendum question being put forward that would require all firearms to be locked in an "approved safe" including while being transported in a vehicle. That's right, they want gun owners to have to install a safe in their vehicle. Currently the only available devices that will accommodate a typical hunting rifle will only fit in a pickup truck and the only ones that will fit a sedan or SUV are special and very expensive (~$1,500) models designed for police vehicles and usually won't fit anything longer than 38-40 inches. Since they must be permanently mounted they severely hinder access to the cargo area.

    Meanwhile, our criminals easily acquire guns through illegal channels and armed robberies and shootings are fairly common events on the evening news.

    Scott there is a problem today with guns and a lot of people who have them should not have them. Growing up at a kid I never had any fear of a student or crazy dude breaking into the school and shooting it up. Today we seem to hear about it too much. Now the shooters will target Walmart, concerts, movie theaters or malls etc. I don't know what a good solution is to stop these shootings but I feel some of these shooters had too easy of access of getting guns. Mhajicek posted a story about a home owner shooting 3 intruders(kids) which I am ok with except how did one of those kids have gun? The other day there was a high school girl expelled from her school and she made a threat about shooting up 400 people with her AK47. How does a kid get one of those guns?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    The fact that they have been so successful at it for over a century has only emboldened them to press for more. If they succeed, at the end of it we wind up looking more like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union than the constitutional republic they left us.
    I was just reading a decent book on 1938 ... you know, Hitler was elected, and popular, and the pogroms were very popular, not like people pretend today ... anyway, it occurred to me that if even 200,000 of those Jews had weapons, maybe they'd have ended up in Dachau anyhow but there'd have been a lot fewer brownshirts around. I only came across evidence of one person shooting a nazi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    Problem with the official story is that he was firing from quite a distance and even with pseudo automatic fire people tend to run and take cover before you can do too much damage.

    Also, the coverage I originally saw had moments where two weapons with different cyclic rates were firing at the same time.

    The LVPD was doing a great job of investigating before the feds swooped in and grabbed all the evidence, leading many to suspect a coverup and a cover story. Almost immediately after the Vegas event there was a massive roundup in Saudi Arabia amidst claims of an attempted coup. The official story was "corruption" but the urgency with which people were rounded up indicates something more serious. A Saudi prince who co-owns the top five floors was one of those arrested.
    Dont forget all the witnesses who told a story that did not match what the "official story" is/was quickly wound up dead under dubious circumstances.

    From the link, more details there:
    "All of which brings me to the recent mass murder of 58 people in Las Vegas, where we have now had 7 witnesses die, several under suspicious circumstances, in the weeks following the event. The lawyer for the country music event whose attendees were targeted; the valet who parked the killer’s car when he checked into the Mandalay Bay on September 25, not September 28 as the original official narrative claimed; three witnesses who claimed to have been attacked by shooters that were in the crowd itself; a person of interest who was being sought by law enforcement officials; a married couple who had been speaking out against the official narrative being pushed by law enforcement; all dead within a handful of weeks following the killings."

    The Las Vegas Shooting: People Are Still Dying – DB DAILY UPDATE

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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderskunk View Post
    Lastly, he was using AR10 rifles. Those are .762... I think?
    A stock AR-10 is 7.62mm, or .308 caliber. It does fire the same round as the M240B, and as such the sound of a single shot will be very similar. However, the cyclic rate of an M240B is constant and at a particular pace, which seems to closely match some of the shot strings in the video.

    The mass and configuration of the M240B and similar weapons allows it to be fired with some accuracy:
    YouTube

    A comparatively featherweight AR-10 (8 pounds, vs the 28 pounds of the M204B) with a bump stock would be extremely difficult to control well enough to hit anything. If someone decides to shoot at me I hope they use a bump stock so they can't hit me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    [INDENT]They also included accidental discharges and even "injuries sustained from BB guns".
    This would include a welt from an airsoft gun as an "injury resulting from a school shooting". A misleading and worse than useless statistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    I want it more difficult for the average person who may or may not use the gun to kill innocent lives.
    Every person may or may not use a gun, car, knife, etc. to kill an innocent person. A person also may use a machine tool to make illegal weapons; are you going to start requiring background checks and licencing to buy a machine? Show ID to buy a pack of plastic knives like in England? Where does it end? Meanwhile, criminals will always be able to get weapons by not following the law. Every country which bans civilian ownership of firearms has a booming black market. Gun control only serves to make things more difficult for the law abiding, it has no effect on criminals.

    Quote Originally Posted by tdmidget View Post
    I knew it was a bump stock or similar the night it happened. If you listen closely to recordings of the gunfire you will note the variations in the cyclic rate. Full autos don't vary.
    Some full autos do vary. IIRC the AK will often increase it's rate over a string of fire. I did notice hearing two strings of fire simultaneously with different sounds and rates, which proves multiple weapons / multiple shooters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    Today we seem to hear about it too much.
    Yes, I think we hear about it too much, because it fits a certain narrative. Every single incident that meets certain criteria will be plastered on every news site and station for weeks after it happens, across the whole country. Meanwhile, for every one of those, there are several cases where people use guns to rightfully defend themselves and their loved ones against violent attackers, and those stories are lucky to have a tiny blip on the local news. You don't hear about those because they don't fit the narrative.

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    That was actually predicted quite some time ago as many smaller manufacturers were able to make high quality ARs at a lower price than Colt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trboatworks View Post
    Colt is out:
    Think Mini-14 prices will go up now ? Those are pretty easily full-autoed, too. And they have a history ... do you s'pose the press doesn't hassle them as much because they don't sound as evil, wicked mean and nasty ? Mini-14, that's like a little girl's gun, right ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Think Mini-14 prices will go up now ?
    No. There are a ton of AR-15 manufacturers. Colt leaving the market won't even make a dent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shawnrs View Post
    Scott there is a problem today with guns and a lot of people who have them should not have them. Growing up at a kid I never had any fear of a student or crazy dude breaking into the school and shooting it up. Today we seem to hear about it too much. Now the shooters will target Walmart, concerts, movie theaters or malls etc. I don't know what a good solution is to stop these shootings but I feel some of these shooters had too easy of access of getting guns. Mhajicek posted a story about a home owner shooting 3 intruders(kids) which I am ok with except how did one of those kids have gun? The other day there was a high school girl expelled from her school and she made a threat about shooting up 400 people with her AK47. How does a kid get one of those guns?
    The same way criminals get them - from the black market. In this case as I recall the girl did not actually have a firearm but that leads to another problem, which is that many kids will make open threats, often online, despite the fact that such actions will almost certainly get them arrested. There seems to be a fair number of kids who are disconnected from reality.

    One of the things that frustrates gun owners like myself who live in states with strict laws is how little effort seems to go into actually dealing with the illegal firearms market. In one especially infuriating case not too long ago a father and son both got arrested for dealing both heroin and illegal firearms. By the time the prosecutors and judge got done with their little tap dance both men got off with remarkably little jail time plus probation. They could have got thirty years each. This crap happens far too often yet our politicians keep screaming for tougher laws. Why do that when existing laws aren't properly enforced unless criminals aren't the real target of these laws.

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    there is a problem today with guns
    No, for many obvious reasons the media, as mentioned above, has an agenda, and always when government wants to regulate or tax more the media helps by focusing on "Crises" events that often wouldn't have such damaging ramifications to non criminals.
    But the truth is it is precisely the "good" average millions of gun owners who never murder anyone that power mad tyrants in government want to deprive of gun rights.

    People who were known to be dangerous to others used to be placed in sanitoriums, but the ACLU and many snowflakes believe it's better that they keep THEIR civil rights and you and I lose ours.
    Many of us are aware, as the Founders were 243 years ago, that there are certain people who can only think of having power over others, and many of them wind up in government, it's kind of like rainwater runs down hill.

    We the People are supposed to be the last line of defense against such tyrants, and to be such we need weapons of war, and this notion is permanently established throughout America with the possible exception of leftists areas.

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    Not only does the crop of DEM. candidates won't to restrict our choice of firearms DEM Andrew Yang wants to restrict the amount of BEEF Americans eat by pricing it out of the reach of consumers.
    It seems that those juicy beef burgers you might grill this weekend are contributing to climate cycle hysteria.

    Buckle up people we are only seeing the the tip of the stupidity ice burg.

    MAGA John

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    Quote Originally Posted by partsproduction View Post
    ... this notion is permanently established throughout America with the possible exception of leftists areas.
    Let us not forget that Dianne Feinstein carries a Glock and Leland Yee was convicted of gun-running. Them leftist areas are not to be so easily dismissed !


    Personally, I don't think gun violence is a problem. I think the choice of targets is a problem


    Speaking of beef, I used to see ground beef, ground chuck and ground round at the grocery store. Now it's all just "lean ground beef" for a hefty price, which seems to be about 30% water. What's up with that ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Let us not forget that Dianne Feinstein carries a Glock and Leland Yee was convicted of gun-running. Them leftist areas are not to be so easily dismissed !


    Personally, I don't think gun violence is a problem. I think the choice of targets is a problem


    Speaking of beef, I used to see ground beef, ground chuck and ground round at the grocery store. Now it's all just "lean ground beef" for a hefty price, which seems to be about 30% water. What's up with that ?
    I can't answer that question but if it's any consolation stop in some time and we can grill up some fresh Iowa beef or fresh one inch thick Iowa chops if you prefer.

    And discuss.


    MAGA KAGA John

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    After reading over 60 pages of discussion here... I must have missed the page where someone actually answers the Op's question.

    9100 (Bill) originally wrote:
    " The question is- what can we do as individuals or a group to bring the firearms world around to a more rational state?"

    The only thing one can do as an "individual" is VOTE.
    I have to believe Bill already knows this.

    The root objective, design and function of a firearm is to kill.
    That's a pretty violent purpose to begin with.
    Events involving firearms between people have never really occurred during a "rational" moment.

    [By the way Bill, congrats on making it to 84. I'd be curious to know if during your lifetime of
    firearm ownership.... if you have ever had to use any of your guns on other people?]

    As others have diverged, or converged their thinking on the subject here...
    I'll do the same and add that one of the troubling issues I've had difficulty in comprehending is the reason
    for the availability of firearms having the capacity to fire multiple rounds in a very short period of time.

    For quite sometime... there's been a long dragged out pissing match on what constitutes an assault
    weapon.

    TA, Ta, Ta, Ta, Ta... Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang.... Snap, Snap, Snap, Snap, Snap, Snap...

    As civilians', Please explain the purpose of needing to shoot multiple rounds at something or someone.
    What's the objective?

    I'll admit I've fired a lot of different types of weapons.

    When I was in the Marine Corps during the '70s, there was a transition from using the 106 recoilless rifle
    to the TOW weapon system for killing tanks. (I guess the "W" wire isn't a part of the system any longer.)

    The segue to the newer weapon was progress.

    What progress has been made in the civilian world by introducing rapid shot firearms with massive
    ammunition magazines to the public?

    Well, history is showing us that it has resulted in numerous instances where many people are killed
    in a very short period of time.

    Doesn't it typically happen, that a few... ruin it for the rest.
    Those "few" have been able to ruin it for the rest of us... because they had access to something.

    I have a sense, the event that happened in Florida with the high school students moved the discussion
    by more than a couple of clicks. Their life in these United States of America is very different than in
    what Bill's life consisted of... when he was a teenager. I could be quite off, or wrong on this hunch...
    but it seems to me the younger generation has plenty of "fire power" with the history they've experienced
    with flying bullets, blood, and death to actually shift this mess to its next chapter.

    It's going to come down to the ballot box.

    VOTE!

    John

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    I don't know who you are or what your background is but you are falling into the trap set by the media.

    There is no "epidemic" of mass shootings. These events are so rare as to be a statistical anomaly yet saturation media coverage has convinced large numbers of people that this is some kind of urgent threat to us all.

    If the media had more rational coverage of these events there probably would have been far less of them as it has been proven time after time that many of these mass shooters are in some kind of competition with those who did this before.

    If you truly were in the Marines in the 70s you are at least my age, or close to it yet your post sounds like one from a much younger person trained in the modern public schools where the true fundamentals of our constitutional republic are no longer taught.

    You are 100% wrong about "rapid shot firearms with massive ammunition magazines" being some kind of modern phenomena. M1 Carbines and 30 round magazines for them were readily available in the 60's and 70s and could often be bought by mail prior to 1968 yet we didn't have these type of events.

    You keep talking about the "need" to own things which is very much an alien concept in American history, yet is part and parcel of collectivist progressive thought. Currently some political candidates are saying that in future we must prove a "need" to eat beef, own things powered by "fossil fuels", and several other things. This is a very dangerous ideology that threatens to stifle the very principle upon which America was built.

    Most of your post is based on emotion rather than logic and your hints about the inevitability of us having to accept yet more gun control sound remarkably like those of some of our resident hard core anti-gunners.

    The very concept of how many view "prevention" today is deeply flawed and totally foreign to the Constitution and Bill of Rights. The collectivists among us are demanding that we accept collective guilt for the misdeeds of others and then accept further restrictions and limits on we the people as penance.

    Every time there is one of these shocking but VERY RARE events they blame those of us WHO HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!


    This is what should have been predicted after we let the collectivists gradually erode the principle of individual responsibility.

    I am one of the growing number of people who will no longer accept this defamation and undeserved punishment. We will fight these laws and if they are passed we will work tirelessly to educate people and elect leaders who will work for their repeal. We owe as much to those who came before us and sacrificed so much in the name of liberty. Freedom is not free and anyone who asks you to trade essentially liberty for assurances of security is a fraud and a liar.

    You want to do something about mass shootings? Then stop blaming the objects they used and demand a full accounting of the factors that have created this very modern phenomena that was virtually unknown only a few decades ago. Among the factors that need to be examined are broken families and broken children (especially boys), a general breakdown of morals and lack of respect for human life, and most of all a sick twisted culture that glorifies the anti-hero and makes self worship and gaining gaining celebrity of any kind top priorities for young people.

    Quote Originally Posted by d'Arsonval View Post
    After reading over 60 pages of discussion here... I must have missed the page where someone actually answers the Op's question.

    9100 (Bill) originally wrote:
    " The question is- what can we do as individuals or a group to bring the firearms world around to a more rational state?"

    The only thing one can do as an "individual" is VOTE.
    I have to believe Bill already knows this.

    The root objective, design and function of a firearm is to kill.
    That's a pretty violent purpose to begin with.
    Events involving firearms between people have never really occurred during a "rational" moment.

    [By the way Bill, congrats on making it to 84. I'd be curious to know if during your lifetime of
    firearm ownership.... if you have ever had to use any of your guns on other people?]

    As others have diverged, or converged their thinking on the subject here...
    I'll do the same and add that one of the troubling issues I've had difficulty in comprehending is the reason
    for the availability of firearms having the capacity to fire multiple rounds in a very short period of time.

    For quite sometime... there's been a long dragged out pissing match on what constitutes an assault
    weapon.

    TA, Ta, Ta, Ta, Ta... Bang, Bang, Bang, Bang.... Snap, Snap, Snap, Snap, Snap, Snap...

    As civilians', Please explain the purpose of needing to shoot multiple rounds at something or someone.
    What's the objective?

    I'll admit I've fired a lot of different types of weapons.

    When I was in the Marine Corps during the '70s, there was a transition from using the 106 recoilless rifle
    to the TOW weapon system for killing tanks. (I guess the "W" wire isn't a part of the system any longer.)

    The segue to the newer weapon was progress.

    What progress has been made in the civilian world by introducing rapid shot firearms with massive
    ammunition magazines to the public?

    Well, history is showing us that it has resulted in numerous instances where many people are killed
    in a very short period of time.

    Doesn't it typically happen, that a few... ruin it for the rest.
    Those "few" have been able to ruin it for the rest of us... because they had access to something.

    I have a sense, the event that happened in Florida with the high school students moved the discussion
    by more than a couple of clicks. Their life in these United States of America is very different than in
    what Bill's life consisted of... when he was a teenager. I could be quite off, or wrong on this hunch...
    but it seems to me the younger generation has plenty of "fire power" with the history they've experienced
    with flying bullets, blood, and death to actually shift this mess to its next chapter.

    It's going to come down to the ballot box.

    VOTE!

    John

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    Thank you very much for your analysis and opinion Scottl.

    You spent a lot of time writing a reply to my two cent thread entry.

    Not sure what you are talking about with, "...collectivists gradually erode principle of individual responsibility."

    I don't have time to dissect all those words and fit them into something that means anything to me.
    (It reads similar to something someone would say during a late night syndicated radio program ; )

    Anyway... There is nothing wrong with inserting emotion with logic in a conversation.
    We're human beings capable of a variety of what it is... that makes us human.
    You wrote in an emotional mode yourself in BOLD Capital letters to [pound] your personal position.

    So... it's all good

    Yes, I was in the Corps during the '70s. I had to ask my parents for permission to enlist because
    I was only 17-years-old upon entering active duty.

    Have you ever played any role in serving your country Scottl?

    I'm still most curious to learn weather Bill (at 84) has ever had to shoot someone with his firearms.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    That's because in many cases where the bad guy retreats and no shots are fired the incident never gets reported. I know of several such cases involving friends.
    A neighbor lady across the street once told me she confronted an intruder in her living room. "Do you want it in the chest or balls?" she asked. He fled immediately.

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    To believe the media you'd think becoming a victim of a mass shooting is the greatest risk Americans face today.

    However,

    Nearly 6,000 pedestrians killed in 2017, crashes, new report says

    Nearly six thousand in one year alone! That's six times the number of people killed in mass shootings since 1982, a period of 37 years.

    US Mass Shootings, 1982-2019: Data From Mother Jones’ Investigation – Mother Jones

    What's mostly missing from discussions of "gun violence" these days is a sense of perspective. Mass shootings in the context of death from all causes are a fly speck on the windshield yet advocates of more laws act like it's a pressing issue.

    "Quick, we've got to do something NOW!"

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