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    Quote Originally Posted by thermite View Post
    Swiss have got theyselves a fair good 'un.

    Then again, they would have, wouldn't they, what with a populace teen years to seniour citizen so heavily armed.
    Yes, and with training, governance, and permitting from said government: Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia

    Also, note what happened in 2019: "However, in a 2019 referendum voters opted to conform with European Union regulations which restrict the acquisition of semi-automatic firearms with high-capacity magazines."

    I would happily follow the Swiss model if we could enact it here. What say you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Show me a government that respects its people (all of them) and is guaranteed to always do so, and then we'll talk.
    The fact that we are having this conversation proves the opposite of your assertion.

    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Yes, and with training, governance, and permitting from said government: Firearms regulation in Switzerland - Wikipedia

    Also, note what happened in 2019: "However, in a 2019 referendum voters opted to conform with European Union regulations which restrict the acquisition of semi-automatic firearms with high-capacity magazines."

    I would happily follow the Swiss model if we could enact it here. What say you?
    I don't worship the government, so I don't have the faith in them that you do.

    Just look at EG, he worships another god and has the same strong religious hate as anyone else brainwashed to believe that their god is wholly superior and the only correct choice, and that anyone who does not worship his god is worthy of death.

  6. #124
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    I want to step back and say the following:

    I'm delighted that this thread has been remarkably civil. That gives me more of a sense of optimism than I started with at the beginning.

    Could we get back to Bill/9100's question? What is possible? I posted a link to the Swiss system a posts back, would people accept something like it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Show me a government that respects its people (all of them) and is guaranteed to always do so, and then we'll talk.
    Do you really think the little lead sprayers that you have in your possession keep the US military off your front lawn? It is the freakin rule of law that keeps them off. If they decided to trample on it we are all minced meat. We used to have an administration that strived for a more perfect union, I guess current events are a bit nerve recking.


    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    The fact that we are having this conversation proves the opposite of your assertion.
    Ha! Pull the other one.

    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    Do you really think the little lead sprayers that you have in your possession keep the US military off your front lawn
    Someone doesn't understand how insurgency works. Everyone has family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    I don't worship the government, so I don't have the faith in them that you do.

    Just look at EG, he worships another god and has the same strong religious hate as anyone else brainwashed to believe that their god is wholly superior and the only correct choice, and that anyone who does not worship his god is worthy of death.
    Worse. The cheap bastard is using a mirror to work both jobs so as to not lose a dime on the tithes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    So we should all die for freedom?
    We all will die. Life is a fatal disease.

    Let all men die Free men!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Someone doesn't understand how insurgency works. Everyone has family.
    This. Additionally, should the government attempt to direct the sort of attacks on the populace seen in some other countries I suspect the loyalty of a very large percentage of the US military would be in doubt.

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  14. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAMasochism View Post
    I don't worship the government, so I don't have the faith in them that you do.
    Hmm - I worship no government, nor false idols. I honor and respect civil society, as I've seen what it's wrought at its best (hint: we just celebrated the 50th anniversary of the first moon landing. Try that with your average warlord's resources).

    Just look at EG, he worships another god and has the same strong religious hate as anyone else brainwashed to believe that their god is wholly superior and the only correct choice, and that anyone who does not worship his god is worthy of death.
    EG confuses the crap out of me. I have no idea what he really stands for, or what he wants. Sometimes he's really helpful with good technical advice, and sometimes he goes batshit insane. And there's the smacking on the US military, without mentioning the atrocities the Chinese have committed, and stuff like forced "re-education" of the Muslims in the western provinces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    I want to step back and say the following:

    I'm delighted that this thread has been remarkably civil. That gives me more of a sense of optimism than I started with at the beginning.

    Could we get back to Bill/9100's question? What is possible? I posted a link to the Swiss system a posts back, would people accept something like it?
    I think it is safe to say that the "we want to defend ourselves from the tyranny of the feds" is kinda BS. If the Feds decided to take out any militia they can do it with the Navy seal janitorial staff. So what are the legitimate reasons to own firearms, other than the cool macho factor and paranoia? It always fascinated me that we pride ourselves in self-governance, then we turn around and claim that we do not trust "them MOFOs because them be the deep state". This is nuckin futz people. Can't have it both ways. I used to have tremendous fate in this country because it was tolerant. Reagan of all people said it,

    "I received a letter just before I left office from a man. I don't know why he chose to write it, but I'm glad he did. He wrote that you can go to live in France, but you can't become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Italy, but you can't become a German, an Italian. He went through Turkey, Greece, Japan and other countries. But he said anyone, from any corner of the world, can come to live in the United States and become an American."

    That seems like was centuries ago, that tolerance is long gone, and we are sitting here bemoaning the guns, and evil, when the only thing that is missing is the tolerance we used to have. My heart goes out to the people of El Paso and Dayton, many of them died just for being in front of a rhetoric fueled nutcase.

    I go back to the initial question of what can I do as an individual? First of all, I have to be tolerant of all of you who just have the inexplicable need to have guns. In exchange, I demand that you are tolerant of my need to know what guns you have, you are qualified to use them, and if you or your guns do damage you are fully liable, and society is not holding the bag for you. I think that is a fair trade. I only vote for people who agree with me on this.

    dee
    ;-P

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    I think it is safe to say that the "we want to defend ourselves from the tyranny of the feds" is kinda BS. If the Feds decided to take out any militia they can do it with the Navy seal janitorial staff. So what are the legitimate reasons to own firearms, other than the cool macho factor and paranoia? It always fascinated me that we pride ourselves in self-governance, then we turn around and claim that we do not trust "them MOFOs because them be the deep state". This is nuckin futz people. Can't have it both ways. I used to have tremendous fate in this country because it was tolerant. Reagan of all people said it,
    "I received a letter just before I left office from a man. I don't know why he chose to write it, but I'm glad he did. He wrote that you can go to live in France, but you can't become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Italy, but you can't become a German, an Italian. He went through Turkey, Greece, Japan and other countries. But he said anyone, from any corner of the world, can come to live in the United States and become an American."

    That seems like was centuries ago, that tolerance is long gone, and we are sitting here bemoaning the guns, and evil, when the only thing that is missing is the tolerance we used to have. My heart goes out to the people of El Paso and Dayton, many of them died just for being in front of a rhetoric fueled nutcase.

    I go back to the initial question of what can I do as an individual? First of all, I have to be tolerant of all of you who just have the inexplicable need to have guns. In exchange, I demand that you are tolerant of my need to know what guns you have, you are qualified to use them, and if you or your guns do damage you are fully liable, and society is not holding the bag for you. I think that is a fair trade. I only vote for people who agree with me on this.

    dee
    ;-P
    Dee

    You need to read the 2nd A more closely, You have it all screwed up with the "militia" thing.

    Get the Cliff notes to help you understand who is who.

    The People is used in the Constitution and Bill of Rights to identify a very select group of citizens. The People, and a militia are not the same!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Ha! Pull the other one.



    Someone doesn't understand how insurgency works. Everyone has family.
    I came from a place that has a long history of bloody insurgencies, they did not all fail because of the lack of arms. I had better history teachers than most. It is alarming how naive some people are. You believe your right to own weapons is enshrined in the constitution, well so be it, but that is not the only right in there. The only other rational explanation for your paranoia is fueled by the rhetoric from the WH. Opress some and they will rise. There are other, more civil solutions, but paranoia and fear are easier to sell.


    dee
    ;-D

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    Quote Originally Posted by CalG View Post
    Dee

    You need to read the 2nd A more closely, You have it all screwed up with the "militia" thing.

    Get the Cliff notes to help you understand who is who.

    The People is used in the Constitution and Bill of Rights to identify a very select group of citizens. The People, and a militia are not the same!
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    Read that in context with Madison and he definitely had the mindset that the people needed to own the arms so the state is not burdened by the cost, and the state can call upon the militia to defend from the feds.

    I posted the link about militias in the federalist papers, madison was very clear why he penned the second. A lot has changed since 1791,


    dee
    ;-D

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    I just finished an email to my states (IOWA) legislators urging them to not cave in to any legislation that will involve liberal judges that will have the power to decide who can and can't posses firearms without a trial by jury. The world is full of spineless individuals that want nothing short of total arms elimination and are pushing that agenda one small step at a time until it is achieved. The threat is real people. Wake up!!!!!

    Has anyone noticed that the the acts of armed lunatics are often recited? What about the acts of hundreds of honest Americans exorcising their 2nd amendment right by firing at and killing or wounding lunatics hellbent on mayhem?
    All done before LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) can arrive!!

    The NRA magazine "The American Rifleman" prints each month on it's "The Armed Citizen" page at least 7 accounts taken from news outlets across the US The accounts are of citizens young/old male/female using the weapon OF THEIR CHOICE to protect life and property from the lunatic fringe. Their are hundred of accounts archived.
    The fake news press doesn't want the public to know any of that.

    Speaking for my neighbors in rural America I say we know and accept that LEOs can not post up in every country mile and city block. We demand that we be allowed to protect ourselves permitted or not with WEAPONS OF OUR CHOICE.

    Few know that the NRA has their "School Shield Program" available to organizations free of charge. The purpose of the program is to help secure whatever from the lunatics.

    In the past week alone an armed man robbed and carjacked a car and a person with a "dangerous weapon" robbed an innocent. Both happened 7 miles for where I sit now.

    The small volunteer FD iv'e been on for 40 years now is equipped with bullet proof vests and helmets.

    We will not roll for the gun grabbers. Count on that.

    Too many existing laws are not enforced and penalties for lunatic behavior are not nearly severe enough.
    The bleeding hearts too often prevail.

    Regards, John

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    I only vote for people who agree with me on this.
    Right generous of you to take the blame - given that pols do never..

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    Quote Originally Posted by john worden View Post
    I just finished an email to my states (IOWA) legislators urging them to not cave in to any legislation that will involve liberal judges that will have the power to decide who can and can't posses firearms without a trial by jury. The world is full of spineless individuals that want nothing short of total arms elimination and are pushing that agenda one small step at a time until it is achieved. The threat is real people. Wake up!!!!!

    Has anyone noticed that the the acts of armed lunatics are often recited? What about the acts of hundreds of honest Americans exorcising their 2nd amendment right by firing at and killing or wounding lunatics hellbent on mayhem?
    All done before LEOs (Law Enforcement Officers) can arrive!!

    The NRA magazine "The American Rifleman" prints each month on it's "The Armed Citizen" page at least 7 accounts taken from news outlets across the US The accounts are of citizens young/old male/female using the weapon OF THEIR CHOICE to protect life and property from the lunatic fringe. Their are hundred of accounts archived.
    The fake news press doesn't want the public to know any of that.

    Speaking for my neighbors in rural America I say we know and accept that LEOs can not post up in every country mile and city block. We demand that we be allowed to protect ourselves permitted or not with WEAPONS OF OUR CHOICE.

    Few know that the NRA has their "School Shield Program" available to organizations free of charge. The purpose of the program is to help secure whatever from the lunatics.

    In the past week alone an armed man robbed and carjacked a car and a person with a "dangerous weapon" robbed an innocent. Both happened 7 miles for where I sit now.

    The small volunteer FD iv'e been on for 40 years now is equipped with bullet proof vests and helmets.

    We will not roll for the gun grabbers. Count on that.

    Too many existing laws are not enforced and penalties for lunatic behavior are not nearly severe enough.
    The bleeding hearts too often prevail.

    Regards, John
    Well, I see Alex Jones has joined the party. Those gun-grabbing libs, next they'll be after my amphetamines and steroids!

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  25. #138
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    I looked at a couple of the latest posts, maybe we are off track again.
    Here are some random thoughts about lowering or maybe not raising the stake.

    I have mentioned news today contributing: Some of the later shooters were imitating the Columbine perps and were trying for a higher "score" (The idea of a score is repugnant to me and most but I do not know what to substitute for it). Yesterday I looked up some info and there are websites that list the number killed in various school massacres. Those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it is a true statement. So you do not want the information to completely disappear, but you want it to stay away from a format that looks like a scorecard. For those that are interested the US massacres pail in comparison to the worst and so far the recent spate of events does not come close to the worst US massacre (only one gunshot involved).

    Some of the Parkland students have made a lot of commotion about banning all guns. Reminds me of some that want benefits paid to them at the expense of taxing the rich. People want to take what is not theirs. Also wondered if they contributed to the problem by bullying the perp.

    On that subject bullying, my first 2 years in school were enjoyable, then transferred to a school that I was the youngest in the class. Used to think that bad treatment was something that would follow me all my life. Was not till I got away from that school environment that I realized that was not going to be my lot in life. Night classes in a community college were also enjoyable again. I never had a desire to harm others, but someone with no hope of anything getting better might. The OP asked what we could do to make things better. Setting an example of being civil could not hurt.

    Last random thought maybe if the anti gunner people would realize that it is a right of PEOPLE to bear arms compromise, could be reached. It is hard to compromise with someone that is going for broke. I could see a limit on magazine capacity for those with no need (if you think no one has a need watch a few videos of helicopter hog hunting). Joe Bidden said a couple of years ago for people that needed a gun for self defense "get a shotgun". Too bad the Feds have laws against too short a shotgun.

    Maybe we could get back on track again.

    Saw a post by John Wodden since I made this one. I am also in a rural volunteer fire department, we are still appreciated here and have had no issues. Have sometimes been called to fires and had no time to put my Bond Snake Slayer up before jumping in the truck. Fortunately we do not have any rules against that. Some departments that would be an expulsion offence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dcsipo View Post
    "I received a letter just before I left office from a man. I don't know why he chose to write it, but I'm glad he did. He wrote that you can go to live in France, but you can't become a Frenchman. You can go to live in Germany or Italy, but you can't become a German, an Italian. He went through Turkey, Greece, Japan and other countries. But he said anyone, from any corner of the world, can come to live in the United States and become an American."

    That seems like was centuries ago, that tolerance is long gone, and we are sitting here bemoaning the guns, and evil, when the only thing that is missing is the tolerance we used to have. My heart goes out to the people of El Paso and Dayton, many of them died just for being in front of a rhetoric fueled nutcase.
    The tolerance is most certainly still there. Don't let the blatant lies of the left fool you, border security is NOT about racism. We are more than willing to accept immigrants, LEGAL immigrants who follow the rules apply properly and wait their turn for approval. We are not willing to accept those who scoff at the rules and feel it is their right to cut in line ahead of those who follow the rules.

    Those that enter the country illegally and work illegally hurt every American citizen and legal permanent resident in the US. They corrupt the economy and the wage scales and do very real harm, and that is only the ones who just work here, not those who are actual criminals. As an example, you may recall the ICE raids on a trailer manufacturer in northeast Texas not long ago. The illegal workers at that company and a number of others in the area directly hurt the employees of the trailer manufacturer directly across the street that only hired lawful workers. Even further ICE got the illegal immigrants running a taco truck at that location and the nearby restaurant saw a direct increase in business.

    Ultimately I want to see every single person illegally in the US rounded up and deported whether they are from Mexico, Honduras, Canada, Ireland, etc. Since this would remove a sizable number of workers, fast track in an equal amount of lawful immigrants to replace them. I don't care the least if you deport a white European and fast track in a Hispanic Salvadoran, the point is to only allow in those who follow the rules.

    Those who knowingly employ illegal workers also need to be dealt with appropriately and this has not been done either. There is also the issue of fraudulent use of things such as H1B visas by unscrupulous corporations to depress wages in higher paid jobs.

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    To answer the original question; Don't shoot anyone that doesn't legally need shootin'. Just be part of the approximately 299,999,950 people that didn't shoot anyone today.

    Thank you,
    Mr.Smith

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