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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Lusitania?
    Maine?
    Farther back I dont know too well.
    Mexican war in the 1830's ... find Grant's memoirs on Gutenberg, well-written and interesting. The first part is about the war against Mexico where a lot of the Civil War commanders from both sides were involved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob F. View Post
    Lusitania?
    Maine?
    Farther back I dont know too well.
    This is hearsay, but I have been told that back around Napoleonic times well off women were sending children to poor families to raise so they didn't have to bother with them. Their living conditions and care were so poor that the mortality rate was high, to the point that generals were afraid they would not have enough young men for the Grande Armee. They paid writers to produce novels extolling motherhood and it became fashionable to have small children with women. They got better nutrition and the Armee was saved.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    As for "those who rule over you" -- I'm still of the notion that I and we get to elect those who represent us. You'll hear me complain, you too, when I'm not happy of the direction (one of my 1st Amendment rights) - but there is an electoral mechanism to change that. Mechanism needs tweaking - getting the hidden money out of politics -- but it can still function. I'm not above thinking for myself and civil disobedience either.
    In an anarchy situation, marshal law, and whatnot, you will have little to no control. Germany voted Hitler in. Doo you really think that "it kan't happen here / now"? Under today's private arsenal - it is much less likely to happen.

    I don't know if this is true, nor where I heard it - it's been a long time ago, but it regarded likely the 2nd Great War, and that the opposition didn't see any benefits to come ashore in The States as the public themselves were so well armed, that they were not helpless.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    As for Ford Mustangs getting more tickets than Chevys -- well if guys with racing stripes on their Mustangs had an unusual propensity to crash into crowds and kill people, I'd want to know why -- and what we could do about it. I might be especially concerned if we had media glorifying Mustangs with racing stripes running into people, just to see them bleed, and if instead of having driver's tests and driver's licenses we replaced mental health facilities with Ford dealerships. Might get antsy if Ford started buying partisan political favor through it's National Mustang Association and had a media arm saying Chevys were a damn commie/Muslim/liberal/Hispanic plot to subjugate the nation.

    So, your Mustang, racing stripe situation would be pretty much like Bill, who started this thread, wondering how we get a bit less senseless violence in our nation.

    .. and I agree with that!

    You see - any skewl shooting or whatnot could have been just as deadly if they had used a less glorified 10 round clip semi auto handgun. Or even 2 or 3 revolvers for that matter, especially with replaceable cylinders.

    The AR, Mini 14, or the AK isn't any more deadly than any other .223 semi auto hunting rifle, yet those don't git used in the same scenario. Why?

    Well, it's your racing stripes. I make (a LOT less these days thanks to China) parts for AR's. I am not into them in any way, and have never even shot one. But 90% of the aftermarket industry is to make your gun look cooler / more gothic(?) than your buddies. 90% (likely more?) of the bolt on's doo not help performance in any way, and some - without a doubt - will hinder that performance. Yet guys will dump all kinds of $ into the looks.

    I apply the same to the knife industry. Man - there are [seemingly] countless knife models out there that look scary, yet they are no more dangerous than the block full of them on your wife's back counter.

    For my nickle, I find that those "scary lookin'" markets feed on themselves and ....

    That Clinton Assault Weapon ban sure made us safer! One of the key features was a bayonet. How much better did we all sleep at night knowing that our neighbor couldn't run out and buy a gun with a bayonet on it? I wonder if the FBI was tracking "bayonet killings" before and after, and how that was effected?

    Point being that the tools that are used in the glorified crimes are really no deadlier than the common hunting or cooking tools, but they look scarier and those yielding them feel strong, controlling, intimidating, or ???? because they have them.


    I too see no value in owning an AR for myself. But then I don't have a Glock either. I have a dumb farmer arsenal and if you are a varmint comin' around here, my long guns are just as likely to end your life as an AK. Yet I find it very interesting that there are so many AR's out there. In 2009 alone - the FBI released the fact that there were (?) 500,000 AR's "sold that year" alone. Now I wondered at the time if that was "new sales" or included transfers of used items as well? I don't know, but the fact is that there are literally MILLIONS of them out there, not even counting similar units as well. Yet, one pops up now and aggin in the hands of some suicidal maniac.

    If there were no AR's, would this guy just slit a wrist? Or would he have driven out in front of a skewl bus after he seen THAT done a few times on the nightly news?
    Renting a U-Haul is easier than obtaining an AR....

    Or maybe build a bomb and drop it off in any busy area if that were to seem to be the "in" thing to doo?

    Or - just as at Ohio State University a few years ago when someone just drove their car into a crowd?

    911 was not undertaken with any militia type device. Just common everyday items. A box cutter really....

    Take away one tool, and the dark hearts will just use some other means.
    It's the hearts that is the problem.

    Personally I am, and have been of the mind ever since the next skewl shooting after Columbine - that the news reports on these crimes is one of the worst aspects. The copycat on this stuff is terrible!
    Should The State outlaw the news from reporting it? No - I'd rather not see that go down either, but it would be VERY nice to see the news agencies get together and decide that they would not report it anymore. At least no nationally. If it happened in your city, then it's be hard to not say anything, but to play it up like The Weather Channel does any tropical depression off the coast of Africa to attract viewers and advertisers, well ....

    "Those who are willing to give up liberties for security deserve neither"



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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Kurt, a few points.

    First, the guaranteed right is to for people to keep and bear arms in the context of a well regulated militias. Our Constitution gives our Supreme Court the power to parse this somewhat ambiguous statement. And that Supreme Court has been just fine with limitations on what arms -- and who gets to bear them. It let stand, for example, the 1994 assault weapons ban. They have also (and you'll like this) gone beyond the 2nd Amendment (well regulated militia's and all), saying that it's fine for most citizens to own weapons for self defense. So, those are are rights. Last I heard neither you nor I got to interpret those words as we wish.

    Put gun control to a vote and I'll be voting (along with the vast majority of the nation) to have universal background checks and thorough enforcement. Along with most of the nation, I won't be touching guns in the hands of sane citizens used for hunting, sport, or home defense. I'd prefer to see the glorification of violence handled by social sanctions rather than regulatory sanctions.
    This is the usual liberal talking point regarding the 2nd. The 2nd pertains to ALL citizens based on ALL men at the time were considered to be part of the militia. Plus, let’s post the entire 2nd to show it includes ALL citizens

    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    Don’t forget WE are endowed with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Along with that comes the right to defend ourselves.

    Lastly, stop with the AR rhetoric. Less than 400 deaths annually from rifles which includes ARs! When an AR ban doesn’t work, you will go after pistols since they are used 7k times a year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    This is the usual liberal talking point regarding the 2nd. The 2nd pertains to ALL citizens based on ALL men at the time were considered to be part of the militia. Plus, let’s post the entire 2nd to show it includes ALL citizens

    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    Don’t forget WE are endowed with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Along with that comes the right to defend ourselves.

    Lastly, stop with the AR rhetoric. Less than 400 deaths annually from rifles which includes ARs! When an AR ban doesn’t work, you will go after pistols since they are used 7k times a year.
    Banning ARs is just the first step, seeing how pliable the media-conditioned public is before coming back later for more. The ultimate goal as stated by many leading gun control advocates in past writings is total prohibition of civilian firearms ownership except for a few narrow exceptions that would be very strictly regulated.

    IMO no honest man fears guns in the hands of decent citizens and we should view as suspect all who would disarm us in the name of safety. They promise to be benevolent masters but make no mistake that they mean to be masters, and if you listen to some of the current candidates guns aren't the only thing they want to take from us by force.

    Among other things, the "Green New Deal" would abolish ownership of all fuel powered vehicles and equipment within ten years. Can't afford to replace everything? Tough shit, do without.

    Same for the home you can't afford to spend $100k plus retrofitting to meet their demands. You'd be forced to move out. And the apartment you try to rent instead? It will be vastly more expensive because the building owner had to spend a fortune on upgrades and SOMEBODY has to pay for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    This is the usual liberal talking point regarding the 2nd. The 2nd pertains to ALL citizens based on ALL men at the time were considered to be part of the militia. Plus, let’s post the entire 2nd to show it includes ALL citizens

    “A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”

    Don’t forget WE are endowed with the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Along with that comes the right to defend ourselves.

    Lastly, stop with the AR rhetoric. Less than 400 deaths annually from rifles which includes ARs! When an AR ban doesn’t work, you will go after pistols since they are used 7k times a year.
    Come up with new talking points already...people have been arguing about the context of the 2nd for so long I'm deaf to it.

    The NFA of 1934 basically neutered the 2nd. That's when it was suddenly no longer legal to go up to the hardware store and buy an automatic firearm without first letting the BATFE crawl up your anus and inspect it then issue you a tax stamp.

    Once you regulate, you have infringed.

    If you use the original purpose of the 2nd, I just don't get what people would consider the breaking point as to "lets form a militia and overthrow the government".

    So I ask...at what point do we overthrow the tyrannical government?

    Our government has committed mass genocide, put people in camps, denied life and liberty to so many people and committed mass atrocities...but our people have not risen up.

    If anything, we've eaten up that propaganda like it's a tasty new dessert.

    We have however figured out that we can enact more change through (mostly) peaceful financial protest (ie, labor wars).

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    Mass genocide?



    Come up with new talking points already...people have been arguing about the context of the 2nd for so long I'm deaf to it.

    Don't need new.
    The old one remains.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mram10 View Post
    This is the usual liberal talking point regarding the 2nd. . ..
    No, it's the Supreme Court's view of the Constitution. And in 1994, when it let stand restrictions on gun ownership, it was the famous 5:4 conservative leaning court with Scalia, Thomas, Roberts, Rehnquist, and Kennedy.

    And, for the record, I'm not a liberal. I'm not registered with either Party and have never voted a straight ticket one way or the other. Probably wouldn't let the NRA fill out my ballot for me, though.

    My belief is that we "conserve" what's not broken. And we make "progress" on what is. With respect to this country's culture of violence, I put that (along with Bill, the OP) in the let's-make-progress bin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post

    Personally I am, and have been of the mind ever since the next skewl shooting after Columbine - that the news reports on these crimes is one of the worst aspects. The copycat on this stuff is terrible!
    Should The State outlaw the news from reporting it? No - I'd rather not see that go down either, but it would be VERY nice to see the news agencies get together and decide that they would not report it anymore. At least no nationally. If it happened in your city, then it's be hard to not say anything, but to play it up like The Weather Channel does any tropical depression off the coast of Africa to attract viewers and advertisers, well ....

    "Those who are willing to give up liberties for security deserve neither"



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    Local school district had a student walk out in front of a train to commit suicide.

    Next week, same district had another student do it.

    Week after, neighboring district had another student do it.

    ONE of those suicides was enough...but that ONE suicide, planted a seed.

    But a mass shooting happens and what do we do? Lets examine the psychology of the assailant, were they bullied? Lets look at their baby pictures on air. What happened on the vacation of the summer of 09? Soemone who once met them at 7-11 says "seemed like a normal kid".

    Good observation though...I'll add you to the list of famous logical anti-sensationalists.

    Don Henley, Dirty Laundry, 1982
    Michael Moore, Bowling for Columbine, 2002
    Ox, 2019

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    Mass genocide?



    Come up with new talking points already...people have been arguing about the context of the 2nd for so long I'm deaf to it.

    Don't need new.
    The old one remains.


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    Indigenous people of the USA

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Indigenous people of the USA
    aka Indians

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    Come up with new talking points already...people have been arguing about the context of the 2nd for so long I'm deaf to it.

    The NFA of 1934 basically neutered the 2nd. That's when it was suddenly no longer legal to go up to the hardware store and buy an automatic firearm without first letting the BATFE crawl up your anus and inspect it then issue you a tax stamp.

    Once you regulate, you have infringed.

    If you use the original purpose of the 2nd, I just don't get what people would consider the breaking point as to "lets form a militia and overthrow the government".

    So I ask...at what point do we overthrow the tyrannical government?

    Our government has committed mass genocide, put people in camps, denied life and liberty to so many people and committed mass atrocities...but our people have not risen up.

    If anything, we've eaten up that propaganda like it's a tasty new dessert.

    We have however figured out that we can enact more change through (mostly) peaceful financial protest (ie, labor wars).
    There’s a scene in the “Young Indiana Jones” while he’s riding with Pancho Villa. An old man has his chickens taken by the revolutionaries, and when told it’s for the good of the cause, he responds about how his chickens were also taken when he supported Emperor Maximilian, then Porfirio, then Carranza, and now Pancho Villa.

    This is pure opinion, so a grain of salt applied, but war is not an investment; they aren’t started because a certain number of actions have happened, or a certain line is crossed. It is usually based on things wholly unrelated to the eventual effects of said conflict. You can say with good certainty that not only will the newest regime have more problems, but may not have even solved the ones they set out to change in the first place.

    There’s a fairly radical book called “Unintended Consequences.” I almost wonder if it’s been mentioned, but this a very long thread. You can read it on google books, but it’s been out of print, and for good reason. It’s essentially a “what if” of this revolution. While the ideas are interesting, the reality of such an idea would be much messier, and the outcome probably would not be what is desired.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    I don't know who you are or what your background is but you are falling into the trap set by the media.

    There is no "epidemic" of mass shootings. These events are so rare as to be a statistical anomaly yet saturation media coverage has convinced large numbers of people that this is some kind of urgent threat to us all.
    You fail to review the actual data in your own links provided in later replies.

    Here it is...black and white, or color.

    Look at the total...yes, it climbs...of course, it's a total. Look at the slope of the line. Notice how it's relatively consistent UNTIL 2012, when it gets more steep. That's the epidemic.

    I'm with you on the M1's. I don't disagree that the media plays in to it. But it is a problem...and comparing mass shootings to automobile accidents is apples and oranges.

    I'd add...I changed the 2017 number from 704 (due to Las Vegas) to 150...just to keep it fair.
    data.jpg

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    Just a brief aside to creeping restrictions.
    I listed a scope mount on ebay for the Ruger mini-14.
    It was taken down.
    The mini-14 is now an assault rifle.

    two-ways-fooled.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    Myth: You have freedom of speech.
    Reality: No you don't.
    We knew that. Ask Paul Robeson ! Julian Assange. Edward Snowden.

    You have freedom of speech until you say anything important (or embarrassing.)

    PeteM should be along shortly to tell me how terrible China is

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post

    That freedom happens to be for citizens, not foreigners entering.
    Seems totally on board to me.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    That freedom happens to be for citizens, not foreigners entering.
    Seems totally on board to me.
    Pretty sure Paul and Ed were citizens ....

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    Cute trick, graphing cumulative data instead of actual data to bolster your "epidemic" claim . And, using the "injured" figure to make the numbers look more scary.

    NO it's NOT an epidemic.

    Total victims in 2019 167
    Total victims in 2018 150
    Total victims in 2017 704, 100 if you ignore the Vegas incident
    Total victims in 2016 154
    Total victims in 2015 95
    Total victims in 2014 40
    Total victims in 2013 48
    Total victims in 2012 151

    Total killed in 2019 66
    Total killed in 2018 80
    Total killed in 2017 117, 59 if you ignore the Vegas incident
    Total killed in 2016 71
    Total killed in 2015 51
    Total killed in 2014 13
    Total killed in 2013 35
    Total killed in 2012 71

    These are yearly totals and matched against a population of over 320 million. And "injured" includes non-gunshot injuries. Several law enforcement leaders have said so in press conferences.

    Even if the total victims (killed and injured) were 250 per year, matched against a population of over 320 million that's less than one part per million. Yet an entire nation is focused on looking for quick "solutions" to supposedly prevent these very rare incidents. It's like using a wrecking ball to swat a fly and the building that's being demolished is our civil rights. All of them, not just those covered in the 2nd Amendment.

    And just how rare would they be if the damn media didn't cover these in a way that virtually invites copycats? What would those statistics look like if the media just stuck with the facts and then moved on to the next story? And if they are seriously concerned, why do they so often use "glamour" photos of the killers instead of driver's license photos or other less attractive looking ones? In one case, and I won't name the SOB, they used multiple photos that were apparently favorites of the highly narcissistic killer. In the Columbine case they used "nicer" photos of the killers when they were younger despite that fact that in at least one of the contemporary photos I've seen they looked like grown men and rather scary looking ones at that.

    What a self serving agenda.

    Treat the killers like some kind of twisted celebrity.
    Treat the weapon the same if it's an "assault weapon".
    Focus endlessly on number of victims.
    Go on with this coverage for days .

    And THEN, when another copycat inspired by the coverage tries to outdo the previous creep they get to do the whole thing again. Great for ratings and useful for pushing the gun control "we" want.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    You fail to review the actual data in your own links provided in later replies.

    Here it is...black and white, or color.

    Look at the total...yes, it climbs...of course, it's a total. Look at the slope of the line. Notice how it's relatively consistent UNTIL 2012, when it gets more steep. That's the epidemic.

    I'm with you on the M1's. I don't disagree that the media plays in to it. But it is a problem...and comparing mass shootings to automobile accidents is apples and oranges.

    I'd add...I changed the 2017 number from 704 (due to Las Vegas) to 150...just to keep it fair.
    data.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Pretty sure Paul and Ed were citizens ....
    Unfortunately, the intrusive nature of the procedure is completely legal, particularly as it applies to foreign visitors, and is not likely to be overturned in court in spite of the Fourth Amendment’s constitutional guarantee that individuals should “…be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures.”



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