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    Quote Originally Posted by Scottl View Post
    What a load of self-serving nonsense! . . .
    My takeaway from that (Time) article was, first, that there was only the suggestion (per the FBI bit) of some people acting on conspiracy theories as the grievance that justifies things in their mind. And that the rest of us, by trying to provide facts might, might dampen enthusiasm for the wildest conspiracies. The article wanders all over the place -- with the general theme that we're awash in conspiracies -- but concludes with one recommendation, based on research: " . . . pointing out the logistical inconsistencies of conspiracy theories helped discredit them,"

    Only other tangible suggestion in that article, seemed to me, was for social media to do a bit less of echo-chambering (e.g. recommending more conspiracies and conspiracy links to anyone who clicks on one) in search of ad profits. Instead of purposefully feeding left to left and right to right, they'd just offer up a more balanced menu of content to click on. Social media companies not entirely happy with this, because if you give an MSNBC fan or a Fox fan more of the same, they're a whole lot more likely to click.

    I'd have to go back to see censoring or censorship recommended as a solution to gun violence-- what apparently has you jumping up and down in Boldface -- doesn't anywhere in the article. On edit: censor, censoring, and censorship don't appear.


    FWIW, there are as likely as many left-wing and no-wing conspiracy theorists, worried someone is controlling things in secret, as right wing ones. They'll all range on some spectrum from wild imagination to true. Seems to me the facts are about all we can do to figure out about how likely each one really is.

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    PS: When I first read the Time article I thought it was a joke with names like "Swami" (an Indian mystic) and "Vitriol" (acid) but apparently the man is named Swami and this author explains the origin of the name Vitriol as a cruel joke played by Austrian officials on those unable to pay for better sounding names.

    January | 2012 | Joseph Witriol's Writings

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    Maybe people wouldn't believe in "conspiracy theories" so much if they weren't constantly lying and running illegal black ops?

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    Peeking [in] to read if you folks have solved the problem yet.

    Is there any leaning toward a solution, or is this thread merely a collection of
    of conversations that fades away over time?

    All firearms represent an objective focused on something called "death".
    Not much any marketing program can do, to change that.

    So many replies have taken place here, did the OP ever answer whether or not he ever had to use his firearms
    on another human being? Please post the section of the thread he answered that question.

    I understand if he wasn't willing to contribute an answer.

    John

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    Or that had just buried it.
    Which do you think is the more likely explanation of that photo, taken with hundreds in observance:

    1) Someone acquired a jet engine, spoofed the serial number, blew it up to look like it had crashed, trucked it to the site, dug a hole amidst the other wreckage, and buried it for that daylight photo?

    or

    2) The excavator is actually digging up a Flight 93 engine?

    You're right that we run "black ops" or that politicians might play dirty tricks. Just not at all likely in the entire 9/11 case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d'Arsonval View Post
    Peeking [in] to read if you folks have solved the problem yet.

    Is there any leaning toward a solution, or is this thread merely a collection of
    of conversations that fades away over time?

    All firearms represent an objective focused on something called "death".
    Not much any marketing program can do, to change that.

    So many replies have taken place here, did the OP ever answer whether or not he ever had to use his firearms
    on another human being? Please post the section of the thread he answered that question.

    I understand if he wasn't willing to contribute an answer.

    John
    If you look at the actual numbers, you'll find the whole "mass shooting" thing is a manufactured crisis, and not a real problem. The chance of this happening to anyone you know is vanishingly small, while there are dangers which are far more common that we could be putting effort into. Unfortunately those real dangers don't grab headlines and secure votes as readily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    If you look at the actual numbers, you'll find the whole "mass shooting" thing is a manufactured crisis, and not a real problem. . .
    You'd be right that things like auto accidents, unhealthy lifestyles, lousy healthcare, pollution, etc. harm more people. But it's not nothing.

    In 18 years we've had about 3000 people killed by terrorists in this country, most of them on 9/11. We responded as if it was a BIG thing. We established a whole Department of Homeland Security, spending billions in the process. Trillions consequently spent abroad to deal with terrorists and presumed WMD (Afghanistan, Iraq, then ISIS in Syria etc.). Thousands more of our own killed abroad, and hundreds of thousands of others killed as a response. We're still paying that debt, fiscally and in the thousands of physically or psychologically maimed veterans. Point is, that's one yardstick for what's a "problem." 3000 killed, many of them innocent? Spend $2+ trillion dollars, have over 4000 more killed, plus nearly 1,000,000 maimed in an attempt to keep it from happening again.

    In the 12+ years to date since 2006 we've had about 2000 people killed by firearms in mass shootings (defined as more than 4 at a time). Almost exactly the same loss of life for us on an annualized basis. So what's the response? Turns out we haven't had anything near the effort addressing such things as our culture of violence, care or tracking for the violently mentally ill, felons, and psychopaths among us, or a workable and comprehensive system to make it a bit harder for nutcases to get their own personal WMD.

    It's not nothing. And as 9100/Bill wonders, you'd think we'd want to do something to keep it from happening again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    You'd be right that things like auto accidents, unhealthy lifestyles, lousy healthcare, pollution, etc. harm more people. But it's not nothing.

    In 18 years we've had about 3000 people killed by terrorists in this country, most of them on 9/11. We responded as if it was a BIG thing. We established a whole Department of Homeland Security, spending billions in the process. Trillions consequently spent abroad to deal with terrorists and presumed WMD (Afghanistan, Iraq, then ISIS in Syria etc.). Thousands more of our own killed abroad, and hundreds of thousands of others killed as a response. We're still paying that debt, fiscally and in the thousands of physically or psychologically maimed veterans. Point is, that's one yardstick for what's a "problem." 3000 killed, many of them innocent? Spend maybe $2 trillion dollars and have over 4000 more killed in an attempt to keep it from happening again.
    Yes, that "cure" has been far worse than the "cold", and continues to be so. I have been opposed to the forever-war since the beginning. We're paying a high cost in blood and money to kill hundreds of thousands of mostly innocent civilians and generate more potential terrorists. If our overseas engagements were engineered for the purpose of indefinitely supporting the military industrial complex then they're performing flawlessly.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    In the 13 years since 2006 we've had about 2000 people killed by firearms and mass (more than 4 at a time) shootings. Roughly the same loss of life on an annualized basis.
    So you're saying that hundreds of thousands of foreign deaths plus a few thousand US military deaths and trillions of dollars are equivalent to a couple thousand US civilian deaths?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    keep nutjobs from getting their own personal WMD.
    And you're also aware of somewhere I can buy nukes and nerve gas over the counter without a background check?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    . . . And you're also aware of somewhere I can buy nukes and nerve gas over the counter without a background check?
    For the nukes, Pakistan. Bring cash. That apparently worked at least in part for N. Korea and Iran.

    Might have to go to Syria or Japanese terrorists for the nerve agents? Maybe Russia, since they seem to use on dissidents it in the UK.

    For the mini-WMD used in our 2000 or so dead, outlets everywhere. And, no checking in many states (or decent national background check system) if its a gun show or private sale.

    You're right about us screwing up in Iraq.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newman109 View Post
    But Building #7 is completely beside the point. You speak of a conspiracy theory and then focus on a small part of the damage.

    YouTube
    I am not the one talking about conspiracy theories.
    I'm talking about evidence. Others think that calling me a conspiracy theorist will somehow diminish my evidence.
    And building 7 is not beside the point.
    It is exactly the point.
    Your government lied to you and used the event to restrict your freedoms.

    And comparing any ideas I've presented with the theory that Buzz Aldrin did not go to the moon, shows just how disingenuous you are.

    Maybe if you knew where the term Conspiracy Theory" came from you would understand.

    CIA Memo 1967: CIA Coined & Weaponized The Label "Conspiracy Theory" — Steemit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ox View Post
    I highly doubt that's really true.
    Maybe that's how long it takes to go through documentation, unhooking this and that, and whatnot, but I bet a Navy Seal team could demo a building just like that in some far corner of the world in somewhat less time. Maybe not as safely, but ....


    ------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox


    Demolition Expert, Danny Jowenko on WTC-7
    YouTube

    Jowenko was the owner of Jowenko Explosieve Demolitie, a controlled demolitions company headquartered in the Netherlands. He had over 30 years of building demolition experience, and his knowledge of explosives was so respected that he was sought as a contributor to the ImplosionWorld production of "A History of Structural Demolition in America".
    Danny Jowenko, 1955-2011: How a Demolition Expert Brought Explosive Attention to 9/11 Truth

    I must admit that I too considered Navy SEALS, but that sort of conjecture just opens a new can of worms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by d'Arsonval View Post
    Peeking [in] to read if you folks have solved the problem yet.

    Is there any leaning toward a solution, or is this thread merely a collection of
    of conversations that fades away over time?

    All firearms represent an objective focused on something called "death".
    Not much any marketing program can do, to change that.

    So many replies have taken place here, did the OP ever answer whether or not he ever had to use his firearms
    on another human being? Please post the section of the thread he answered that question.

    I understand if he wasn't willing to contribute an answer.

    John
    I answered the question when you asked. Actually, I had described the incident previously. In 25 words or less- I saw a mugging in progress a few hundred feet from my shop, went back in and got my 1911, and chased the perps away. I didn't shoot anyone and am very thankful that I didn't. I regard my home defense weapon much as I regard nuclear deterrent, most successful if it is never used. I pretty much follow the legal definition that someone has to be an imminent threat to life. In any case, I will continue to keep and sometimes bear arms.

    Bill

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    As to buying WMDs, I think most competent chemists could make a nerve agent. I am not a chemist and have just the typical chemicals used in plating in my shop, but I could make some mean brews. Dump the cyanide silver plating solution in the sulfuric tin plating tank and you will have turned the shop into a gas chamber.

    Bill

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Are you suggesting that Flight 93 was shot down to keep someone quiet, rather than the passengers confronting the terrorists?


    It's apparently easily imagined by some -- but not by most of us.
    I fully understand.
    That is why I began with a brief history of the Prussian School model for our own educational system.

    Your inability to imagine such things is exactly what makes such things possible.


    17.jpg

    david.jpg

    government4.jpg

    cia.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    This is my litmus test of the "conspiracy" theories.

    Could the US, in all of our military glory, pull off a 9/11 style "conspiracy" as a military exercise.

    That is, could we enlist suicide bombers, demolitions experts, engineers, intelligence operatives, handling agents, and all of the red tape...and pull of an attack of similar proportion, in secret, on foreign soil....killing civilians.

    Possibly...and I say possibly, because the civilians part is going to stop a lot of people.

    Now...could we do the same thing on our own soil, making all that red tape disappear...without a single one of those involved growing a conscious to the fact that they'd be killing 3,000+ of their own civilian countrymen...all in an effort to push the agenda of the purported deep state.

    I'm happy to say that I really don't think we could. If we could though...then I clearly live in bliss, and would prefer to continue that way. Because if the reality is, that upwards of 1,000 people would murder their own civilians in secret to push a government agenda, then that's a darkness I care not to acknowledge the existence of.
    I can appreciate your gentle nature, but it is naïve.
    Your government has drugged, sterilized, aborted, and sent off to war so many of it's own citizens, that it should not be possible to think of them as adhering to any moral standards. Earlier I posted some videos of the CIA's experiments in psychology. Please view them if you want an education on the topic.
    People of power don't even think of you as being a member of their species.

    ciacocaine.jpg

    Edited to add this video.
    This isn't just about what our government will do under cover, but about what they teach others to do openly.

    The Empire Files: The U.S. School That Trains Dictators & Death Squads
    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post
    Good for Buzz (You Tube clip above). Guess after repeated harassment, this old warrior didn't like to be called a coward and a liar.

    Bayes theorem was mentioned above. And Bayesian or at least probabilistic inference is something conspiracy theorists should better understand: Bayesian inference - Wikipedia

    Many conspiracy theories require a string of dozens, even hundreds (in the 9/11) case of events. Some may be be 50% likely, say the Building 7 owner wanting an insurance payout or a fire collapse looking like a controlled demolition. Others 1% likely. But by the time you string them all together, the likelihood of pulling the entire thing off (as Snowman and others note) becomes vanishingly small.

    The same sort of inference also shows what a remarkable achievement the moon landing was. Thousands of people worked to make their part of the mission 99.9+% likely. A lot of that from thorough understanding of the physics, exhaustive testing, and then redundancy. And, despite glitches that nearly ended it, they succeeded.
    Pete if you want me to continue to help you understand, you are going to have to make some effort to be more honest – or at least more accurate.
    I understand Bayes Theorem, and find it worthy of merit.
    The flaw is in your application of the theory.
    You suggest that two planes flown into two buildings caused fires that dropped three skyscrapers.
    This has never happened before. It has not happened since. Architects have built into their designs enough additional strength to withstand such occurrences. Even for aircraft larger than a B-25.

    “Some may be be 50% likely, say the Building 7 owner wanting an insurance payout...”
    This is not a 50% probability, it is a fact.

    “or a fire collapse looking like a controlled demolition.”
    You cannot possibly know that the building collapsed because of fire, it is simply the belief that you cling to in order to feel good.
    Evidence contradicts your fantasy.
    In the end, you want to claim that every thing that offends your comfortable beliefs is in violation of your construct of probability.

    20171109-notsopleased_ernie-5ab95d84d9aaf__880a.jpg

    If there is any comparison between the engineering of the World Trade Buildings and that of NASA's space vehicles, it is that the design of the buildings could employ redundancy and safety factors that would be unthinkable for space vehicles.

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  23. #1697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Learning View Post
    . . . You cannot possibly know that the building (WTC7) collapsed because of fire, it is simply the belief that you cling to in order to feel good.
    Evidence contradicts your fantasy. . .
    As two links above show, detailed structural analysis showed Building 7 could collapse from fire, and in the manner observed. There WAS fire. There wasn't enough water to deal with it. Critical interior beam was displaced. The building, restrained by stiff perimeter walls, collapsed.

    As you suggest, it could also have collapsed with Dick Cheney and the Building 7 owner orchestrating an amazing series of events, including placing nano thermite on the building in a controlled demolition in a total sequence of events including multi-year histories of the terrorists, tens of thousands of paid and unwitting actors, hijacked jumbo jets or really good holograms there of, crash scenes in three states, airplane engines trucked and buried in PA, and every media outlet and other country intelligence service fooled, etc.

    And then we'd want to know Cheney's or some other mastermind's (able to command the Air Force to shoot down Flight 93) motivation? For the terrorists it was pretty clear.

    Kurt, I know a local guy, bright and an amazingly talented artist/craftsman, who believes in multiple conspiracy theories. Pretty much the same 9/11 questions as your links, plus Obama as a Kenyan, Kennedy assassination, we didn't land on the moon, etc.

    At that time I spent enough time looking at the data, including knowing something of the Building 7 FEA modeling through trusted colleagues, to think the notion that our own government did this beyond unlikely. Don't really intend to go through it again, even though you may well be as otherwise bright and talented as my local friend.

    We got a pretty good idea of how the terrorists planned. Learning to fly a jet, but not land it. Money from Saudi fundamentalists. Inspiration and recruitment from Bin Laden, in an organization already isolated from scrutiny, and so on. Now imagine you're Dick Cheney, doing his regular day job, and trying to plan and execute all the events of 9/11 -- without detection by mere mortals?

    Had you told me there have been self-serving people in business and government, that they've gotten us into wars that made little to no sense, and in a round-about way that was the cause of 9/11 -- we would find some agreement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteM View Post

    Had you told me there have been self-serving people in business and government, that they've gotten us into wars that made little to no sense, and in a round-about way that was the cause of 9/11 -- we would find some agreement.
    Pete, that is good enough for me.
    We'll disagree on a lot, but in the end, you have a good grasp of what happened.
    Like so many others, I wish I could be a keyboard warrior. But I have to stop and do things like eat, sleep, work and occasionally shower.

    Gen. Wesley Clark reveals 2001 plan to attack Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Iran
    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    The key to any such operation is compartmentalization. Say you want to secretly rig a building for demolition, and it takes weeks of work, most of which is cutting holes in concrete and running cables. A tiny bit at the end is placing charges. Just hire a construction company to do the first part, completely above board, as is well documented to have happened. Have a tiny black-ops team do the last bit.

    Want to redirect the nation's air power to render it ineffective? All you need is one person in the right position to initiate a training operation with a scenario very similar to that which you're actually planning. Have him insist that this training scenario be integrated on all the real equipment, including filling air traffic control computers with false signals. Everyone else is just doing their jobs, and the nation's air power is useless.

    You don't need everyone to remain silent. When a few people inevitably come forward about their part in it or their observations, you have them disappeared or suicided, call them crazy conspiracy theorists, and threaten journalists to get them to delete any recordings. If you look into it there's a LOT of evidence that this happened. For added effectiveness, poison the well as mentioned above.

    I saw the news interview of the pilot who shot down flight 93.
    Thanks.
    Share what you dare.

    This one is enlightening. Especially at 41:15
    Flight Attendant sheds new light on 9/11.
    YouTube

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    For the first time ever, an elected body in the United States is stating that it is “beyond any doubt” that explosives – not plane impacts and fires alone – destroyed the three World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001.

    “overwhelming evidence” that explosives were planted in all three towers prior to 9/11.

    Explosives used on 9/11 say commissioners - Common Ground

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