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  1. #41
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    Darwinism at work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wesg View Post
    Darwinism at work.
    Maybe... but I pity the cop who shoots a kid that was holding what turns out to be a toy.

    I know more than a few people who wear a badge to work everyday. They generally want to have a good day at work and to come home safe. Shooting someone is one of the last things they'd want to do on any given workday.

    That said, there is a simple way to keep kids from getting shot by the police. You teach them how to behave, to not point guns or gun-shaped toys at police officers, be polite, etc.

    My wife and I raised three kids of our own, and have assisted with many others. The worst offense any of them have committed was my son got a speeding ticket last summer. I don't think we did too bad a job raising them.

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    @koehlerrk

    I realize that BATF bought the guns. It was in my quoted text. My question is how did they know to go to the pizza shop to buy guns? Suppressor parts at a machine shop I can see, but where's the link between the BATF and pizza?

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    Informants, i suppose. They busted someone who testified, or mentioned pizza. Back in Russia police working two ways as well - plotting fake ads in various places, and by informants. They even have funds to pay low-lifers, alcoholics, pensioners, hobos. Someone who can hear part of your dialogue, see you somewhere and then report it for a small price. Technically speaking - they don't looking exactly for you. They plotting a net for anyone, who is unlucky enough. Or just too careless.
    P.S. I looked for a some gunsmith to volunteer, but after this tread, I suppose it wasn't a bright idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koehlerrk View Post
    That said, there is a simple way to keep kids from getting shot by the police. You teach them how to behave, to not point guns or gun-shaped toys at police officers, be polite, etc.
    m.
    Or talk on a cell phone or walk in a neighborhood one person thinks they do not belong in

    read the news, this is not about behavior

    what needs to happen is better training of police.

    The death penalty is not an appropriate penalty for bad behavior, being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    When I was a kid I played with toy guns.

    No one called the cops on me, no cops pulled a gun on me, and it was not because I was well behaved.


    Poorly trained police officers shooting innocent people is not the innocent persons fault

    period

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheels17 View Post
    @koehlerrk

    I realize that BATF bought the guns. It was in my quoted text. My question is how did they know to go to the pizza shop to buy guns? Suppressor parts at a machine shop I can see, but where's the link between the BATF and pizza?
    Unfortunately the confidential informant was probably a friend of the person who was busted, busted for doing something stupid, wormed their way out by cooperating.

    Feels better to blame a stranger, not always the case.

    Not a fan of set ups by law enforcement, but as they say, hard to con an honest person

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  9. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheels17 View Post
    @koehlerrk

    I realize that BATF bought the guns. It was in my quoted text. My question is how did they know to go to the pizza shop to buy guns? Suppressor parts at a machine shop I can see, but where's the link between the BATF and pizza?
    My guess would be that the pizza shop guy was building and selling guns for a while. One of those guns most likely ended up in police custody along with it's owner. When asked where the gun came from the owner said that he got it from the pizza shop guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by guncrank View Post
    My guess would be that the pizza shop guy was building and selling guns for a while. One of those guns most likely ended up in police custody along with it's owner. When asked where the gun came from the owner said that he got it from the pizza shop guy.
    Very possible. Ever read the book "Unintended Consequences?" The author changes names, but re-iterates several well-known ATF stings very well. And yes, all too often, they bust someone for something stupid and coerce them into assisting them bag someone else. Don't get me wrong, what Rizzo did in this case was 100% wrong, ie, finishing 80% receivers and selling them. That he got busted for doing it... fine. The fact that the whole reason he did this was because he was set up by "law enforcement" is the part that bugs me.

    In my mind, it's similar to the local PD having a picnic at the local park, and providing beer. And then providing officers to do sobriety checks on each person who leaves the picnic. They first created the problem, then solved it. Would it have happened without their assistance in the first place? That, to me, is the issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koehlerrk View Post

    In my mind, it's similar to the local PD having a picnic at the local park, and providing beer. And then providing officers to do sobriety checks on each person who leaves the picnic. They first created the problem, then solved it. Would it have happened without their assistance in the first place? That, to me, is the issue.
    I'm with you

    difference being, drinking beer is legal, driving is legal, even driving after having a moderate amount of beer is legal.

    Pretty much the whole chain here is illegal. I find it scummy and not entirely productive, but legal.

    The John Z Delorean setup was over the line, and a jury agreed, where a whole fictional drug deal was setup to bust a guy whose whole dream was collapsing around him.

    Over the line also IMO was what they did to Tommy Chong, calling and calling to get his company to send bongs over state lines, till someone[who was probably high] finally just shipped them, Tommy goes to jail


    If the feds had gone after a guy who never did such a thing, or tried to get him wound up on paperwork violations, that would be over the line, but, come on you are selling gun parts in a pizza joint, you know what you are up to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koehlerrk View Post
    Maybe... but I pity the cop who shoots a kid that was holding what turns out to be a toy.
    I wholeheartedly agree with you. And I almost added a statement that effect. And I apologize for being lazy.

    I've been around guns for a long time, and can recognize most. But I've been out in the woods on dirtbikes and come across guys with paintball guns, or so they said, that I could not distinguish from real.

    And then there was the guy who pulled an extra trigger group out of a duffel bag when I asked him what he had, and out of the corner of my eye I could see his buddy with a 'what the f are you doing' look on his face. I just said 'cool', and rode off.

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    You may not get an answer from them BUT..call the local BATF office and ask them if enforcement branch has an open investigation open on you. They are usually "nice" about requests. If they show up, invite them in and ask them questions. If you are above board (doing legit work not requiring licensing and reporting requirements) they won't bug you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    Are there freelance paid informants out there looking for people to set up for arrest, to get paid for their efforts? A long time friend fell for that long ago after the passage of GCA-68, got a felony after agreeing to sell a NOS cosmolined luger with a shoulder stock to an ATF informant that he had had in the attic since the late 50s.
    Yes there are. Back in the 80s a coworker told me a relative of theirs was an ATF "cowboy" aka a freelance informant. Apparently he did it as much for the excitement as the money. What they do is find people willing to do or at least discuss off-limits activities and then try to interest the case agent who handles them in going further, at which point they can collect serious pay.

    A couple of the gun clubs around here have had to "read the riot act" to new members who repeatedly try to engage other members in this kind of discussion. After that they usually become less and less active and just fade away, letting their membership lapse. Presumably they try again in another geographic area.

    One thing to keep in mind is that these are NOT government agents but civilians who make at least part of their living as informants. Most of them are barely more than criminals themselves and it would be a mistake to expect moral behavior from them.

    It ain't paranoia when they really are out to get you.

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  17. #53
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    "One thing to keep in mind is that these are NOT government agents but civilians who make at least part of their living as informants. Most of them are barely more than criminals themselves and it would be a mistake to expect moral behavior from them."

    There is a statement that most just cant comprehend! I actually worked for a period of time for a business owner that was also a "PAID INFORMANT", I became aware when he kept mentioning his handlers name, and the dirtbags he would have come around. I got him to admit it after pouring alot of alcohol down him at the right time, like a punk, coke and black velvet.
    His story is, he got caught up in a situation, and this policeman helped him out of it, apparently tax free cash?
    I couldn't get him to say how much he got paid, but it was enough for him to want me to run his legit business so he could devote more time to snitching for dollars.
    I contacted a legal mind, to carefully extract myself from the situation, that was not easy, when his handler caught on that I knew, and was leaving, they tried to set me up!

    Here are some funny facts,

    Of course, their the ones that ask you to do something illegal, while bragging about the crap their handler lets them get away with.

    True punks ,often carry guns and lets you know it, and about the same time ask if you know their handler.,,always paranoid.

    Snitches dont know each other, but their handlers certainly do! If you happen to come upon 2 snitches, tell them you think the other is a snitch, that will cause a train wreck for the handlers, or often the same handler!

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    Y'know that feeling you get when you are zipping along the road 20 over the limit and suddenly there are no cars around you, and you say,' I'm gonna get a ticket'.

    I get the same feeling talking to some people.

    Just pick up my beer and walk away..........

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    Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the murders at Ruby Ridge the result of a sting set up by the ATF? The cold blooded murder of a mother holding her child would not have happened but for the zealots running the ATF, "protecting" the citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the murders at Ruby Ridge the result of a sting set up by the ATF? The cold blooded murder of a mother holding her child would not have happened but for the zealots running the ATF, "protecting" the citizens.
    An ugly chapter all around: Ruby Ridge - Wikipedia , but the entirety of it would have never happened if Weaver had just showed up to court as he was required to. Contributing factors would be the paranoiac nature of the Weavers, him a "corrupt world" type, her a religious delusional. Sad, but preventable with better mental health care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the murders at Ruby Ridge the result of a sting set up by the ATF? The cold blooded murder of a mother holding her child would not have happened but for the zealots running the ATF, "protecting" the citizens.
    YES, you are correct.
    From the linked article:
    The Wall Street Journal, June 30, 1995, p. A14

    "The 1992 confrontation between federal agents and the Randy Weaver family in Ruby Ridge, Idaho, has become one of the most controversial and widely discussed examples of the abuse of federal power. The Justice Department completed a 542-page investigation on the case last year but has not yet made the report public. However, the report was acquired by Legal Times newspaper, which this week placed the text on the Internet. The report reveals that federal officials may have acted worse than even some of their harshest critics imagined.

    This case began after Randy Weaver was entrapped, as an Idaho jury concluded, by an undercover Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms agent to sell him sawed-off shotguns"

    Many more details here: Massacre at Ruby Ridge

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    "In 1989, an undercover agent of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms approached Mr. Weaver and pressured the mountain man to sell him sawed-off shotguns. Mr. Weaver at first refused, but the agent was persistent and Mr. Weaver eventually sold him two shotguns — thereby violating federal firearms law. A court official sent Mr. Weaver a notice to appear in court on the wrong day; after Mr. Weaver did not show up on the correct date, a Justice Department attorney (who knew of the error) got a warrant for his arrest. Federal agents then launched an elaborate 18-month surveillance of Mr. Weaver’s cabin and land."

    What got the shooting started:

    "On Aug. 21, 1992, six heavily armed, camouflaged U.S. marshals sneaked onto Mr. Weaver’s property. Three agents threw rocks to get the attention of Mr. Weaver’s dogs. As Mr. Weaver’s 14-year-old son, Sammy, and Kevin Harris, a 25- year-old family friend living in the cabin, ran to see what the dogs were barking at, U.S. marshals killed one of the dogs. Sammy Weaver fired his gun in the direction the shots had come from. Randy Weaver came out and hollered for his son to come back to the cabin. Sammy yelled, “I’m coming, Dad,” and was running back to the cabin when a federal marshal shot him in the back and killed him.

    Kevin Harris responded to Sammy’s shooting by fatally shooting a U.S. marshal. Federal agents falsely testified in court that the U.S. marshal had been killed by the first shot of the exchange; evidence later showed that the marshal had fired seven shots before he was shot himself."

    How it ended in court:

    "Neither Randy Weaver nor Mr. Harris fired any shots at government agents after the siege began. Mr. Weaver surrendered after 11 days. An Idaho jury found him innocent of almost all charges and ruled that Kevin Harris’s shooting of the U.S. marshal was self-defense. Federal Judge Edward Lodge condemned the FBI and issued a lengthy list detailing the Justice Department’s and FBI’s misconduct, fabrication of evidence, and refusals to obey court orders."



    20 Years Ago at Ruby Ridge: FBI Sniper Slays Mother Holding her Baby - James Bovard

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    Another quote by federal judge Lodge:

    "After an Idaho jury found Weaver not guilty on almost all charges, federal judge Edward Lodge slammed the Justice Department and FBI for concealing evidence and showing “a callous disregard for the rights of the defendants and the interests of justice.” A Justice Department internal investigation compiled a 542-page report detailing federal misconduct and coverups in the case and suggested criminal charges against FBI officials involved in Ruby Ridge."

    "The Justice Department paid $3 million to settle a wrongful death lawsuit from the Weaver family. But when Boundary County, Idaho filed criminal charges against Horiuchi, Barr sprang to action seeking immunity for FBI snipers. He spearheaded efforts to sway the court to dismiss all charges because holding a sniper liable would “severely undermine, if not cripple, the ability of future attorneys general to rely on such specialized units in moments of crisis such as hostage taking and terrorist acts.”"

    William Barr’s Connection to Ruby Ridge, Defending FBI Snipers | The American Conservative

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    An ugly chapter all around: Ruby Ridge - Wikipedia , but the entirety of it would have never happened if Weaver had just showed up to court as he was required to. Contributing factors would be the paranoiac nature of the Weavers, him a "corrupt world" type, her a religious delusional. Sad, but preventable with better mental health care.
    The articles I linked in the last 3 posts better explain what happened.
    Weaver was sent a notice to appear in court, but the court date on the notice was not the same date the court had him scheduled to appear, so of course he was NOT there when the court expected him. Law enforcement knew this and then escalated it from there, all in the links as reported in the Wall St Journal at the time.


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