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1993 VF3- Spindle getting hot

npolanosky

Cast Iron
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Location
USA, FL
Hi there,
I picked up a used 1993 VF-3 for basically nothing because it wouldn't change tools.
Replaced O-rings in the TRP, replaced some air lines, cleaned the crap out of the whole thing, and boom- It's ready to rock and roll. A killer deal at twice the price, the previous owners had just given up and bought a new VF2SS to replace it.

The last issue I have left is that the spindle gets hot pretty quickly at anything over 2500RPM or so. I haven't measured it with the temp gun yet, but after a few minutes at 4k I can't touch the upper-inside of the taper for more than half a second or so. I've run a similar vintage VF1 for the past 2 years, and even after heavy cutting at 5k for hours it's nowhere near this hot.

I suspected a lube issue at first since the lubrication system was full of sludge. I replaced metering valves and tubing, cleaned the bijur oiler tank, etc. I've got good clean oil in it and it's definitely reaching the spindle. I put a bit of oil in the spindle manually too, just in case it was extra dry. The axes weren't being lubricated properly, so I figured it couldn't hurt.

It's still getting very hot though, and seemingly faster than before. Doing more reading, it looks like over-oiling is just as bad or worse than running too dry, and therefore adding oil manually was stupid.

How should I rectify this, and what should I check? Should I turn down the regulator for the spindle air/oil system (the one that's normally at 15psi or so) and just let it run at S300 or so for a day? Is it possible something else is causing the heating? Or do these 7500RPM spindles just run hot?
 
No, the spindles should not run that hot, even a 15K when properly lubed should be under 120F or so. If you want to measure your spindle, use a good contact probe, not a IR gun. Emissivity matching is tough on shiny steels, so the guns frequently don't give good readings.

It sounds like you have actual bearing damage, perhaps brought on by long use without proper lubrication. I would suggest you use a stethoscope or other listening aid while manually rotating the spindle to listen for any unusual sounds.

Repairing a spindle can be done, but it's not simple if you've never replaced the retaining collar or bearings before, so you could look into a replacement from Haas. You'll have to return your old spindle as a core, but the final price isn't bad. Be sure to check tram when done, after ensuring the machine is level and Z is true to the bed. Sometimes some light shimming (or better, scraping) is done to get best tram.
 
If the spindle design is basically the same as a '91 VF-1, there is no oil lubrication of the spindle bearings. The bearings are permanently greased (until the bearings wear out). Too much grease and the bearings get hot from churning the grease. Find out if they repacked or replaced the bearings.
I replaced the spindle bearings in mine, it was not too difficult. The bearings are retained with standard four slot bearing nuts. I made a bearing nut driver from a four wheel axle nut socket. As long as you are in there, replace the o_rings in the bottom of the spindle.
New bearings have to be run in at stepped increasing speeds for several hours.
 

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There's definitely an oil line going into the spindle. It comes off of the blue regulator behind the air/lube panel.
 
If you run it at moderate speed for a while, the air going into the spindle should purge the excess out the bottom of the spindle. If this is like a VF3 cartridge, if you take the bottom coverplate off the spindle, the excess oil should drip out (don't run it with the cover off).

For something to get hot that quickly, I'd expect a lot of bearing noise if the bearings had a lot of hours on them. And it should get looser over time, not tighter. Did someone overhaul this spindle already perhaps? The preload might have been set too high.
 
I ran it all day yesterday alternating between 200rpm and 3000rpm in 10min increments. I got a proper contact thermocouple too. Temps started around 135deg, and by the end of the day it was down to 105-109 in the same conditions. I'm going to bump the RPM up slowly and keep running it like this. I've had a paper towel under the spindle and initially there was a ton of oil coming out, now we're down to a few big drops per hour. Might just be able to dodge a replacement/rebuild yet! At least for now.

If I can get it to run comfortable at 4-5k I am happy, 7500RPM is a bonus.
 
I ran it all day yesterday alternating between 200rpm and 3000rpm in 10min increments. I got a proper contact thermocouple too. Temps started around 135deg, and by the end of the day it was down to 105-109 in the same conditions. I'm going to bump the RPM up slowly and keep running it like this. I've had a paper towel under the spindle and initially there was a ton of oil coming out, now we're down to a few big drops per hour. Might just be able to dodge a replacement/rebuild yet! At least for now.

If I can get it to run comfortable at 4-5k I am happy, 7500RPM is a bonus.

See page 7 https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam...english---vf-series-service-manual---1997.pdf
I was going to suggest to much oil, but looks like you may have figured that out. Hopefully your issue is gone.

Forgot to mention to run the SPINDLE BREAK IN program listed in the manual.

Good luck!
 
Is there an air exhaust 'stone' back of spindle at the tool end? Replace this - setting air pressure to 11 from 19 psi cooled my spindle down to reasonable levels. It gets clogged over time, dried coolant I suspect.
 
Our 1993 model does the same thing if we let it sit for about a week. We're forced to execute the run-in program at least twice before performing any cutting with it. These older machines drink oil like crazy and it's waaaaaay too much for the spindle.
 
Hi there,
I picked up a used 1993 VF-3 for basically nothing because it wouldn't change tools.
Replaced O-rings in the TRP, replaced some air lines, cleaned the crap out of the whole thing, and boom- It's ready to rock and roll. A killer deal at twice the price, the previous owners had just given up and bought a new VF2SS to replace it.

The last issue I have left is that the spindle gets hot pretty quickly at anything over 2500RPM or so. I haven't measured it with the temp gun yet, but after a few minutes at 4k I can't touch the upper-inside of the taper for more than half a second or so. I've run a similar vintage VF1 for the past 2 years, and even after heavy cutting at 5k for hours it's nowhere near this hot.

I suspected a lube issue at first since the lubrication system was full of sludge. I replaced metering valves and tubing, cleaned the bijur oiler tank, etc. I've got good clean oil in it and it's definitely reaching the spindle. I put a bit of oil in the spindle manually too, just in case it was extra dry. The axes weren't being lubricated properly, so I figured it couldn't hurt.

It's still getting very hot though, and seemingly faster than before. Doing more reading, it looks like over-oiling is just as bad or worse than running too dry, and therefore adding oil manually was stupid.

How should I rectify this, and what should I check? Should I turn down the regulator for the spindle air/oil system (the one that's normally at 15psi or so) and just let it run at S300 or so for a day? Is it possible something else is causing the heating? Or do these 7500RPM spindles just run hot?

Maybe I missed it, what oil are you running? Haas says to use Mobil 1 now. Maybe that might bring the temps down some?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I am curious if anyone has switched to Mobil 1 on these older machines. Eliminating the wax buildup seems to be the advantage to Mobil 1.
 
Haastec is the winner! I ran the spindle break in procedure twice and I'm now right around 120deg at 7500RPM, and dropping with use. I've been running parts the past fews days with the spindle wide open and it's doing well. It seems to run even better with a toolholder in there acting as a heatsink and flood coolant running also. Good enough for now, I'll make some money and plan like I could need a spindle cartridge at any moment. HAAS has them available, so I'm down 2-3 days tops if it does eventually quit. Seems good to go though!

Is there an air exhaust 'stone' back of spindle at the tool end? Replace this - setting air pressure to 11 from 19 psi cooled my spindle down to reasonable levels. It gets clogged over time, dried coolant I suspect.
Not on this one, but on the '92 VF1 I used to run there was. On this VF3 the transmission oil lines enter the lower section, presumably helping cool the spindle but not interacting with the bearings, and then exit and return to the upper section of the head. The spindle oil enters from the top of the spindle cartridge, and I do not know where it exits.Possibly just around the spindle shaft between the shaft and lower cap, since that's where I feel some air when the spindle is on (at 10RPM or so, I like my hands :) )

Our 1993 model does the same thing if we let it sit for about a week. We're forced to execute the run-in program at least twice before performing any cutting with it. These older machines drink oil like crazy and it's waaaaaay too much for the spindle.
I'm starting my days with a shorter warm-up program, but I think I'll get in the habit of running the break-in program at least twice per month. Maybe on a weekend or while cleaning the shop.


Maybe I missed it, what oil are you running? Haas says to use Mobil 1 now. Maybe that might bring the temps down some?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am curious if anyone has switched to Mobil 1 on these older machines. Eliminating the wax buildup seems to be the advantage to Mobil 1.

I'm running the originally specced Vactra 2, but I am interested in trying the Mobil 1 at some point. Maybe once I run out of Vactra. Too bad I just bought a fresh gallon last week, it'll be a while.
 








 
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