98 VF4- power up LOW/HIGH 117 or 118 failure. No gear change. How to diagnose?
Close
Login to Your Account
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 21
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default 98 VF4- power up LOW/HIGH 117 or 118 failure. No gear change. How to diagnose?

    Garage Dad/Son gig here. Yet again, the Haas is down. The Son got out of school a week ago, came out, did his part and CAM work... and as soon as we started booting up the haas it started failing w/ LOW/HIGH gear failures. Some symptoms...

    When booting up and the OS is trying to test engage the gear box, I can turn the spindle... it'll clunk, and then start booting. Once booted I can jog around XYZ etc... but if you ORIENT SPINDLE, or try to run the spindle you get a MACHINE LOCK.

    Looking over other info.. seems the usual threads talk about clogged air lines, a MAX Soli(?) (which I found on the unit), and something w/ O=rings deep inside and under w/ the pulley and belts. what is this thing called anyway?

    I see a lot of different info, but cannot really find a solid post on how to diagnose as yet. Anyone have some insight of know of a Haas tech doc or tips and starting points?

    h

    TIA.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    ca, US
    Posts
    265
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    74

    Default

    When it tries to engage the gearbox does the spindle slowly turn? From the 96-8000 manual:
    Parameters 67 and 70 control the time-out times, 75 controls the gear change speed. Check the air pressure, circuit breaker CB4, the air pressure solenoid circuit breaker and spindle drive.
    Gear change air solenoid?

  3. Likes countryguy liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    Thanks! That is a great start. We were so filthy from pulling all the covers off... What searching we did was cursory.. We found the following and I think I know what we'll be doing all day today!

    a) YouTube

    b) From another post here (url below his fix).

    The high gear and low gear tubes to the shifter were full of crap from years of black iron air lines. The manifold needed cleaning, and the small air holesfrom the manifold to the gear box were bored out to help air flow. The gears shift beautifully now.

    As for the in between gears, for anyone who has trouble with that, I suggest uncoupling the two brass air lines in the back of the manifold and using shop air to manually activate the gear box. In the parameter diagnostics, there will be a low and high gear, and one should read 1, while the other reads 0. If they are both 0, it means you are stuck between gears. Blowing air into one while rotating the spindle shifted the gears so that you can go back to testing the high and low.

    b) Alarms 117/118/126 Gear Fault - 1998 Haas VF-3

    c) found this... Gearbox troubleshooting steps and good pics for our as-yet journey.
    https://www.haascnc.com/service/trou...ting-guide.pdf
    Last edited by countryguy; 06-18-2019 at 06:19 AM.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    New York
    Posts
    1,597
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    680
    Likes (Received)
    781

    Default

    I got one with a sticky solenoid. Change the parameters to lengthen amount of time for the shift timeout alarm.

    I put a ball valve at the back of my machine and when it's trying to shift, I run back there and pop open the ball valve quickly. That shocks the system and gets the solenoid to shift into low.

    Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

  6. Likes countryguy liked this post
  7. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    Morning troubleshooting.

    Reply: When it tries to engage the gearbox does the spindle slowly turn? EDIT My Son is saying no it does not turn at all on startup ... Does this help indicate something I can chase.

    OK, I pulled the air lines and MAC off. Inspected the inlet screens. They look really good.
    Now I can access the two lines that go for HIGH/LOW.. Do I now try and use some air from on a nozzle? (bypassing mac & into the tubes) to see if it'll change gears? Watch the sensor 0/1 status on diags for high/low gear as noted in a) below? (bit of assuming from limited info posts I've been reading? )

    Snippets from other places on suggestions
    a- I will try this today using air if I can? Not sure how I do this as noted above.
    a- Did you test manually the valve? and see in the diagnostics page that the value for this item its changing form 1 to 0 or viceversa

    b- gear change Solenoid... Man I hope not, but seems to be out there in several posts as the fix.
    b- you will need to pull the spindle motor off and then raise the tranny. You then need to pull the shifter solenoid out and pull it apart and clean it. Source some new o-rings when you put it back together after cleaning. There could be some junk in the airlines that is hanging it up, also as the belt wears you get particles that accumulate on the outside of the shaft. Then when it moves up and down shifting gears it gets jammed up between the shaft and the o-ring seal. Make sure when you put it back together that you tighten the mounting bolts evenly and not distort the body, this will cause the piston to ride off kilter an will hang up further.
    Last edited by countryguy; 06-18-2019 at 09:25 AM.

  8. #6
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    ca, US
    Posts
    265
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    74

    Default

    Another thought, check the air pressure at the lines going to the gear change solenoid. I have a VF-1 and it requires at least 90 PSI. Is your low air pressure alarm working?
    My VF-1 does not try to change gears on startup. Someone with a VF-4 should answer that but if it is trying to change gears the spindle needs to turn (not a syncromesh gearbox). Check your gear change spindle speed parameter.
    You should be able to use air directly on the change solenoid to see if it is working correctly.
    You might try cleaning the solenoid and shaft in place with a spray cleaner.

  9. Likes countryguy liked this post
  10. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    708
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    335
    Likes (Received)
    437

    Default

    Most of the time if you open up the small orifice the gear box and valve will work much better. If you use a rubber tipped air gun on the brass lines and it shifts gears I would replace the solenoid valve. If it doesn't shift with blowing air in the lines, it is likely a mechanical problem with the gear box. Best of luck, Daryl

  11. Likes countryguy liked this post
  12. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Florida
    Posts
    366
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    291
    Likes (Received)
    116

    Default

    the MACHINE LOCK sounds like there's a keyswitch or setup button or something disabling some or all of the controls (You would use this if you had a production job set up right and you didn't want your operators tampering with the program or machine). Is there a switch for this on the side of your control?

  13. Likes countryguy liked this post
  14. #9
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    Thank you everyone for the tips so far. So... after most of the PM so far here is what we know....

    CB4/ checked and fine. (Solenoid breaker).
    Low Air Pressure alarm works fine.
    Pressure tried from 85-100PSI.. No change.
    Tried to vary Parms 67,70, and 75 with no clear changes.
    Checked the MAX solenoid for Low/High...(pulled blue and all hoses and mounting block. Screens look really clean. We have everything back together.

    - When boot up- Spindle does NOT turn at all... But, the spindle meter goes to 50.. (about 1/3)
    - If we grab and turn the spindle during the boot up and when trying low/high test, it will complete and finish booting.
    -Once done on the step above,
    If I issue a S2000 M03 and run- Meter to 100%, check DIAGS, HIGH GEAR = 1 LOW = 0 Hit RESET.
    Then Try a S300 M03, and run. Meter to 100%, check DIAGS LOW GEAR = 1 HIGH = 0


    Our next step:
    Again remove the MAC low/high tubing and try to see if we can use a air nozzle .. (Anyone know if we can we do that powered up? Or powered down?). Just putting air into LOW or HIGH brass tube... how do we tell what happens? Clunck noise?
    TIA!!! And for the tips thus far folks.

  15. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    708
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    335
    Likes (Received)
    437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by countryguy View Post
    Again remove the MAC low/high tubing and try to see if we can use a air nozzle .. (Anyone know if we can we do that powered up? Or powered down?). Just putting air into LOW or HIGH brass tube... how do we tell what happens? Clunck noise?
    Do it with the power off, and rotate the spindle as you use the air. You should here it shift and feel the drag change on the spindle. I would also open up that orifice in the fitting to .060" if you have a set of small drill bits. It's probably a dirty valve. Haas has a good DIY video for cleaning those.

  16. Likes countryguy liked this post
  17. #11
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    Thank you OB. To make sure... Drill out the pin holes in the 1\8ish line tops that are up top on the back of the head going into the blue MAC solidinoids. These are mounted to an Alu block

  18. #12
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    ca, US
    Posts
    265
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    74

    Default

    MACHINE LOCKED - Front panel has been locked by setting.
    Memory Lock key switch locks Settings and all programs
    Setting 7 locks parameters - parameters 57, 209 and 278 lock other features
    Setting 8 locks all programs
    Setting 119 locks offsets
    Setting 120 locks macro variables

    If the spindle meter goes to 100% on startup but the spindle does not turn I think the problem might be Parameter 75 is too low or a drive problem. It is showing up as a gear change problem because the spindle is not getting up to speed in time for the gear change operation.

  19. Likes npolanosky, countryguy liked this post
  20. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    Thank You for the help. Will have Son check these this .am I did move #75 from 15 to 50... No change but will check the others...#7 really familiar with. same w /#120. Maybe just try to restore the Parms from our backup...

    If there is a machine-lock on the keypad.. I'm not seeing it. There is no external key.

    we'll get there.


    Quote Originally Posted by magno_grail View Post
    MACHINE LOCKED - Front panel has been locked by setting.
    Memory Lock key switch locks Settings and all programs
    Setting 7 locks parameters - parameters 57, 209 and 278 lock other features
    Setting 8 locks all programs
    Setting 119 locks offsets
    Setting 120 locks macro variables

    If the spindle meter goes to 100% on startup but the spindle does not turn I think the problem might be Parameter 75 is too low or a drive problem. It is showing up as a gear change problem because the spindle is not getting up to speed in time for the gear change operation.

  21. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    Some idle thoughts on this overall over coffee. As a 98 rebuild, the kid and I have enjoyed doing this together. sweat ..(and the tears), I'm sure we'll solve this- I just wish we could get to root cause. Complex stuff.

    Some thoughts:
    Since the DIAG's for Gear LOW/HIGH are flipping from 0 to 1- I think this is being registered on the DIAG screen by the actual MAC solenoid pickups. OR- is there a sensor on the Gear change solenoid? In images I do not see any type of wires or such on it. So DIAG bit's for LOW HIGH flipping from 0 to 1... does not reflect an actual gear solenoid state change? Or... does it?


    With the Motor/spindle load registering on the panel meter and zero spindle turn- Should we be able to hear something on the motor itself that it's actually turning? The FAN does start on top.. but we cannot hear anything on the motor turn in there. The Vector drive box inside... all lights seem fine. DIAG's Voltage registers fine. No clue yet on getting into Motor movement issues. Anyone know how to prove if our Motor/spindle is not an issue?

    We'll be looking at Parms and lock out stuff this morning too.

    The Son wants to yank the head and go rebuild/clean the gear change Soli today... But I'm not sure that's going to help but we may as well do it now and not worry? Is this something two mech-heads can usually do?

  22. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Michigan
    Posts
    708
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    335
    Likes (Received)
    437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by countryguy View Post
    Thank you OB. To make sure... Drill out the pin holes in the 1\8ish line tops that are up top on the back of the head going into the blue MAC solidinoids. These are mounted to an Alu block
    You drill out the holes in the 2 fittings that the copper lines screw into. Remove the lines, remove the fittings and drill the small orifices out to .050" to .060".

  23. #16
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    ca, US
    Posts
    265
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    74

    Default

    Mind you mine is a '91 VF-1, it has micro-switches to detect all air solenoid movements. I presume yours would too since Haas used to keep things simple.
    When you put in S2000 M3; and hit the CYCLE START did the motor run? In your previous statement you were looking for gear changes and did not state the motor was running.
    If Diagnostics are showing the gear changes then there probably is not a problem with the solenoid. Whether to rebuild/clean depends upon how long before you can start to using it versus a possible non-problem. I pulled the spindle and changed the bearings with no previous experience (engineering degree and have rebuilt an Alfa GTV6 and 911 engines).
    Do you have a maintenance manual? You should have some of this information there.

  24. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    Thanks MG, we'll I am unsure of the switches as prox or micro or what - But have manual's too and have some block diagrams from those mauals. Plenty to go thru for this weekend. (no day job). I'm running in/out via calls to Son, and home early w/ the kid to check this, do that, screen me a pic, etc.

    MOTOR TURNING OR NOT TURNING- Just pulled Fan top and tried S4000 M03 after cheating to start. No motor turn. Yet if I reach in and turn the top of the motor end, the Spindle down below also turns. (it's in HIGH gear according to diags). What I can tell you is that the LOAD meter goes up, but we get zero motor movement. Not even a flinch on the motor end shaft.

    Quote Originally Posted by magno_grail View Post
    Mind you mine is a '91 VF-1, it has micro-switches to detect all air solenoid movements. I presume yours would too since Haas used to keep things simple.
    When you put in S2000 M3; and hit the CYCLE START did the motor run? In your previous statement you were looking for gear changes and did not state the motor was running.
    If Diagnostics are showing the gear changes then there probably is not a problem with the solenoid. Whether to rebuild/clean depends upon how long before you can start to using it versus a possible non-problem. I pulled the spindle and changed the bearings with no previous experience (engineering degree and have rebuilt an Alfa GTV6 and 911 engines).
    Do you have a maintenance manual? You should have some of this information there.

  25. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Maryland
    Posts
    136
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    0
    Likes (Received)
    23

    Default

    It's been mentioned twice. But about 98% of the time the 2 restrictors are clogged and should be drilled out as recommended. I was a haas service tech for over 10 years and this was the fix most of the time. I ha e a 96 VF3 I own. Had the same issues recently and my restrictors were all ready drilled out. I had to pull the gearbox and rebuild the shift piston. I rebuild the whole gearbox while I was at it. Haven't had any issues since

  26. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    Thanks Hoss - We just tested the Whitebox A/B/C motor outputs during a S300 M03 and no voltage of any kind on the A , B, or C outputs. Will go dig/look into the restrictor right now.

    when you note this was issues w/ clogged restrictors, does it leave the motor output DOA & 0

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoss710 View Post
    It's been mentioned twice. But about 98% of the time the 2 restrictors are clogged and should be drilled out as recommended. I was a haas service tech for over 10 years and this was the fix most of the time. I ha e a 96 VF3 I own. Had the same issues recently and my restrictors were all ready drilled out. I had to pull the gearbox and rebuild the shift piston. I rebuild the whole gearbox while I was at it. Haven't had any issues since

  27. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Mich, USA
    Posts
    149
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    81
    Likes (Received)
    25

    Default

    PM update- Drilled the restrictors to .040 It boots up, No 117/118 errors. 2x anyway.
    Spindle does not turn on any M03 command. Low or high. Ops panel pegs into Red for load on spindle. No voltage on output of motor leads from the white Vector box. Multiple failures chase? 1 down.. X next ?


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •