Apologies in advance: TM-2P as a first CNC machine?? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    I program the high school’s TM-1 first gen control using Fusion 360. Fusion is cheap but works plenty well enough for a TM. The control has built-in aids for programming simple features like pockets, but I’ve never mastered them.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    COMPARED TO a dinky Bridgeport, the small Haas will be noticeably more ridged, right?

    I have also read posts here saying that the MiniMills are more rigid than the TM2?

    THANKS again for all of these answers everyone!

    Yea, sorta kinda...

    Manual and CNC are different animals.
    You'll learn that quick when you start climb milling your work instead of conventional milling it. The cutter pulls its way through the work...easier on the cutter, the spindle and the motor and the part. For this reason you can take decent cuts quickly. This is due to NO Backlash and not the rigidity of the machine so much...although a factor.

    Now being able to throw coolant on the tool and part also allows you to continue taking cuts in the part without worring about a melt down. The coolant OR Air Blast also stop you from recutting the chips...that kills the tooling. So coolant cools and also helps tremendously in keeping chips away from the tool path, the tool. It is so important I said it again.

    Then comes times you can really spin up fast taking, light DOC but going with high feeds and the heat comes off the work with the chip...also the speed and feed are tossing the chips away from the cut zone so no recutting chips. And no coolant mess.

    Having an enclosure allows you to use coolant, air or high speeds that would make such a huge mess with a bridgeport its not funny.

    That is the other item with CNC...you now run at the correct speeds, feeds and depth of cut and not what you'd use on a manual as the mess, the chips in face would be unbearable.

    SO the rigidity is an aspect to CNC over manual...but CNC is used differently....or I should say it CAN be used differently to remove more material faster...just not with brute strength.

    As to CNC G-Code...CNC runs like graph paper. instead of cranking handles, you tell the machine to move to certain points at a certain rate at a specific feed while turning the spindle on at a specific speed in a certain direction. There is nothing overly intricate in basic machining. YOu just learn the language the machine knows G-Code. Or you lock yourself into "canned cycles" where you enter information and machine writes the code for you.

    In any case...A TM CAN make good or better parts faster than a manual. Just as with all computers Garbage in, garbage out.

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    the biggest thing is all due to what size of parts you machine with it. as when you buy it for a specific travel and tooling etc. you cant really go bigger easily on the travel once you have bought it.

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    Thanks for that, encouraging!

    I know absolute ZERO about programming or coding. Just to make sure: I don’t have to buy separate software to run this thing, right?
    Meaning, Haas supplies it with the software it needs?
    No separate software needed to get started, between the VQC software on the machine, Haas tips of the day and the manual you should be fine......you can also call Haas or the VFO to get help if you get stuck!

    There's also lots of help here!

    Good luck!

    Kevin

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  9. #25
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    If you intend on drilling/tapping holes and milling circles/rectangles like it's 1985 no you don't need software. If you want to make complex parts with modern toolpaths CAM is a must. Fusion 360 is cheap and easy ($500 a year). I guess VQC is helpful if you don't have the capacity to memorize a few canned cycles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    Yea, sorta kinda...

    Manual and CNC are different animals.
    You'll learn that quick when you start climb milling your work instead of conventional milling it. The cutter pulls its way through the work...easier on the cutter, the spindle and the motor and the part. For this reason you can take decent cuts quickly. This is due to NO Backlash and not the rigidity of the machine so much...although a factor.

    Now being able to throw coolant on the tool and part also allows you to continue taking cuts in the part without worring about a melt down. The coolant OR Air Blast also stop you from recutting the chips...that kills the tooling. So coolant cools and also helps tremendously in keeping chips away from the tool path, the tool. It is so important I said it again.

    Then comes times you can really spin up fast taking, light DOC but going with high feeds and the heat comes off the work with the chip...also the speed and feed are tossing the chips away from the cut zone so no recutting chips. And no coolant mess.

    Having an enclosure allows you to use coolant, air or high speeds that would make such a huge mess with a bridgeport its not funny.

    That is the other item with CNC...you now run at the correct speeds, feeds and depth of cut and not what you'd use on a manual as the mess, the chips in face would be unbearable.

    SO the rigidity is an aspect to CNC over manual...but CNC is used differently....or I should say it CAN be used differently to remove more material faster...just not with brute strength.

    As to CNC G-Code...CNC runs like graph paper. instead of cranking handles, you tell the machine to move to certain points at a certain rate at a specific feed while turning the spindle on at a specific speed in a certain direction. There is nothing overly intricate in basic machining. YOu just learn the language the machine knows G-Code. Or you lock yourself into "canned cycles" where you enter information and machine writes the code for you.

    In any case...A TM CAN make good or better parts faster than a manual. Just as with all computers Garbage in, garbage out.
    Climb milling!!! Consistent use of cooling AND actually clearing chips away? That sounds like heaven!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    If you intend on drilling/tapping holes and milling circles/rectangles like it's 1985 no you don't need software. If you want to make complex parts with modern toolpaths CAM is a must. Fusion 360 is cheap and easy ($500 a year). I guess VQC is helpful if you don't have the capacity to memorize a few canned cycles.
    No need to memorize canned cycles when their at your fingertips.....some of us have CRS and don't need to memorize everything!

    I agree, if your doing complex tool paths, CAM would be helpful......I made parts long before I had access to CNC, now it's just another tool that I use to get the job done!

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    No need to memorize canned cycles when their at your fingertips.....some of us have CRS and don't need to memorize everything!

    I agree, if your doing complex tool paths, CAM would be helpful......I made parts long before I had access to CNC, now it's just another tool that I use to get the job done!

    Kevin
    That makes perfect sense. I just might be able to make this work!

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    AS FOR PROBING: I don’t wanna spend that much more, but will I regret not getting it? I have my Haimer and other doodads (99% of the time I just use paper).

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    AS FOR PROBING: I don’t wanna spend that much more, but will I regret not getting it? I have my Haimer and other doodads (99% of the time I just use paper).
    I'd spend the money on tooling and part holding. Haas is so simple to setup I'd get the basics and run with them. Next machine IF you see a need, you buy then. My .02 Unless your seeing yourself probing a whole lot. For me...I'd use it rarely with my work. My Work being key

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    NICE, I’m skipping the probe. Thanks!

    Next annoying question: Im worried I might go bat crap crazy scrutinizing where every drop of coolant goes? I can’t handle the idea of water based anything weeping under my Kurt vise jaws, or the smallest bit of ANYTHING getting in the ways, on the tool holders…

    Will I be OCD vacuuming & wiping down after every step? Is it not that bad?

    I see myself spraying the entire innards with cosmoline before every use, just before they take me to the nuthouse.

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    I ran the everloving dog shit out of a 2004 tm-1. I ran it on mostly stainless and 4140. I stalled the spindle out probably 100 separate times and had at least a dozen decent crashes on it. It was still going strong when we sold it to make room for a real vmc 8 years after I got it. I learned on it and I think it is a great first cnc. It's relatively cheap and under powered and slow enough to not hurt it self in a crash. I run all mazaks now and miss the little tm for odd jobs and want one in my shed.

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    Mine came before they made the enclosure so we ended up fabing up a 1/8" thick stainless pan to set the whole machine to control the drips and leaks. Coolant in my opinion is the worst part of the whole dang job. Keep it on the rich side to prevent rusting under vices, I like spraying a thin coat of white lithium grease from the auto parts store on the base of any vise, fixture or rotary that's going to be on the table for a day or more . Get an oil separator for the coolant tank, they double as an aerator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJ H View Post
    Only the 6k spindle can run on single phase. Also the the 10k spindle even though twice the HP only puts out half the torque (17ft/lbs) vs the 6k (33ft/lbs). We have Superminis with the 10k and while great for little widgets they will stop a shell mill dead in it's tracks in steel and the load meter will be pegged in aluminum.
    YIKES, I don't want to lose torque. On the website the 10K spindle as an option for the TM-2P shows no torque specs, and it LOOKS like it isn't the same 10K spindle that Mini Mills come with. I need to call tomorrow and find out if I lose 50% of the torque with getting that option.

    EDIT: There is a torque chart and it shows just as you stated; 10K has 17 ft-lbs vs 33 ft-lbs that the 6K spindle has.
    SO... Will I regret NOT getting 10,000 RPM spindle? I am suddenly very turned off by the idea of a wimpy spindle that can't hog material. I realize my idea of "heavy cuts" is relative. I am thinking best metal removal in steels.

    10K or stick with 6K spindle? Feels like 6K is outdated but looks like the 10K is for turning plastic!?
    This is a very big venture for me and I don't want to regret the spindle choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldCar View Post
    NICE, I’m skipping the probe. Thanks!

    Next annoying question: Im worried I might go bat crap crazy scrutinizing where every drop of coolant goes? I can’t handle the idea of water based anything weeping under my Kurt vise jaws, or the smallest bit of ANYTHING getting in the ways, on the tool holders…

    Will I be OCD vacuuming & wiping down after every step? Is it not that bad?

    I see myself spraying the entire innards with cosmoline before every use, just before they take me to the nuthouse.
    I wouldn’t skip the probe, I think rotation and scaling come with it?

    I ran a TM1 without and now have the TM2P with, I wouldn’t be without it!

    You can probe parts in process if needed?

    Kevin

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    You can get by without the probe, but it's a real time saver. I wouldn't get a machine without one, but I'm in a different spot.

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    Good point, time that is.

    Anyone else have recommendations on the 10K spindle vs the 6K spindle? I was surprised to hear the big difference in torque. And surprised there was no mention of that difference when checking the available options.

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    One other plus for the probe, you can use it as a CMM and reverse engineer parts......I use it all the time with pin gages to pick up holes(plain and threaded) for bolt patterns.

    Have you watched the Haas videos, Tips of the day, lots of good info?

    Kevin

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    Quote Originally Posted by bsg View Post
    One other plus for the probe, you can use it as a CMM and reverse engineer parts......I use it all the time with pin gages to pick up holes(plain and threaded) for bolt patterns.

    Have you watched the Haas videos, Tips of the day, lots of good info?

    Kevin


    I use my probeless CNC as a CMM, just a bit slower. Then again I reverse engineer once every few months.


    Watch Haas tips of the day to get a feel of what may be a nice idea to get, what you could really use, and what is a must-have. Me, I run parts, simple gauges and calipers are great for 90% Of what we do. The other 10% is micrometers and intrimic work.


    Spindle speed or power...tough question, too bad you cannot have both.
    The answer is based on what your planning to do.

    Are you planning to run lots of parts with small fine details using tools 1/8" and under often? Those need rpm or the jobs run long.
    Lots of engraving...tiny .01 tips. Those need high RPM or they run long.
    3D work with ball mills...That needs high rpm or you program will take days...

    Mostly aluminum milling, not alot of metal removal...high rpm help.



    Now if yoou plan to run tooling over 3/8" diameter and hog...torgue.
    Tap over 3/8-16...torque
    Drill agressive ove 1/2"...torque

    Facemill anything more than a skim cut....torque.


    In my mini I went with standard 5 or 6k spindle. Its about right for me...some jobs I wish I had more rpm, others I wish I had more torque. Luckily I have other machines that fit that bill. But when I need to run those jobs in the mini...I tweak the program. The machine still makes the parts just fine...it just takes longer as the spindle is too slow for 1/16" carbide endmills and needs a couple extra roughing passes to remove the bulk of the material. Point is, I can get it done. Big taps just ain't gonna happen...but that is why we have threadmills.


    Coolant and wiping up every last drop.
    Yeah, you can do that each time and it will hurt nothing...it just takes time.


    Run crappy coolant and I'd go as far as to recommend doing that.

    Now if your running a good, quality coolant I would not bother. That coolant has rustproofing in it so if it gets in or on your vise, surface between vice and table...you'll be just fine. That is not to say I do not clean my table, remove vise once in awhile to clean, wipe and a couple drops of oil gets put on table before vice goes on. then wiped again and indicated. Buy good coolant.

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    I want to be able to run small detailed parts, but so far I don’t. And steel 99% of the time. Such a big purchase for me; I want it to do everything!
    MiniMill 10K spindle is rated for more torque, but I can’t buy that one.

    Am I going to be the fool stuck in 1985 with a 6K spindle?

    It is obvious it will fit what I currently do. I guess I’m begging for encouragement.

    SIM already answered my questions, thanks!
    Yet, now my head is spinning… Can engraving, as a last op, be done at all at 6K RPM?


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