Bosses are perfect, bores are undersized

I'm trying to troubleshoot an issue with my new TM-1P with NGC. I'm programming with Inventor 2019 HSM. Tool offsets are set with the probe.

Using the same tool and material I can make a circular boss feature and the diameter comes out spot on, within 0.0005". However, when I bore out a hole the diameter is coming out too small by around 0.005". I've seen this behavior repeatedly with multiple end mills in both steel and Ti. Some of the holes were made with carbide end mills 0.5" in diameter, so it doesn't seen like tool deflection is the answer, and for shallow hole in steel so I don't think the part is deflecting either.

Any ideas? Could there be some kind of cutter compensation turned on I don't know about that would act differently for bores and bosses?

What is your feed rate? Are you accounting for the feed at the tip of the tool when programming centerline feed in an internal radius move?

Feed rate is fairly slow - 15 in/min in Ti at 2200 RPM with a 4 flute 0.5" carbide end mill - the TM-1P isn't all that powerful.

I was relying on HSM's g-code generation as I figured they'd be better at it than me. I did try changing the compensation from "in computer" to "in control" but I got the same result. I guess I'll dig into the g-code tonight and try to see if something is wrong there.

What is the bore size?

Your endmill will cut much more effectively on the boss than in the bore. Your 15 IPM @ 2,200 with 4 flutes comes out to .0017" chipload, which if the bore is like 3/4", is (IMO) way too fast if the bore size is less than 200% of the endmill size. The endmill can have a very high engagement % in a bore, which makes it deflect, especially in Ti.

Have you tried helixing down into the bore?

Regards.

Mike

Are you repeating your finish pass (spark-out, so to speak)? You should if you want to absolutely nail sizes on these kinds of features.

bmazin said:

Feed rate is fairly slow - 15 in/min in Ti at 2200 RPM with a 4 flute 0.5" carbide end mill - the TM-1P isn't all that powerful.

I was relying on HSM's g-code generation as I figured they'd be better at it than me. I did try changing the compensation from "in computer" to "in control" but I got the same result. I guess I'll dig into the g-code tonight and try to see if something is wrong there.

Click to expand...

a word on advise expecially on a hass mill the i.d bores will be about 50% less in feed rates to make a good one when running boss's. I have no clue why. it even happens on alum...and you need to also make a dry pass. My hass has dont this from day 1 and I cant figure out why. its a vf2ss

besides you should be using the g13 cycle for bores, then you have 100% control if you have it

G13 I0.25 k0.375 Q0.015 D1 F5.0
I= bore start Rad. K= bore finish Rad. Q= width of cut D= tool dia offset

Tried another part with a finishing pass and with feed optimization off (before it was set for inner corners only). Still small by .003"!

One thing - this hole is elliptical, so I'm measuring off the minor axis, but I've seen the same thing with circular bores.

bmazin said:

Tried another part with a finishing pass and with feed optimization off (before it was set for inner corners only). Still small by .003"!

One thing - this hole is elliptical, so I'm measuring off the minor axis, but I've seen the same thing with circular bores.

Click to expand...

Dude
post a picture of that section (boss and the bore or elliptical bore as you call it now. also post your program for it...

and just for hell of it post what you dia offsets are on your tool cutting it.
cause something isnt right and I am sure its your programming not coming out correctly and thinking the machine probe is going to make up for that. which it will if and ONLY if you use cutter comp.


if your measuring the tool on the probe than I assume your using cutter comp, if your not using cutter comp then there is no point in measuring your tool as it would make no difference.

I believe you are writing the program for the dia of the endmill, which is fine. I do that also in cad for mosts stuff because you dont always need cutter comp.

and one more thing, how are you measuring it? please dont say calipers.

feed is the centerline of the tool ... your feeding WAY to fast ... a 1" bore using a 1/2" endmill well travel 1.570" but cut 3.1416 worth of surface... meaning if you program 10 IPM feed your actual feed is 31.16" not the 15.70" feed your programmed.

D.D.Machine said:

feed is the centerline of the tool ... your feeding WAY to fast ... a 1" bore using a 1/2" endmill well travel 1.570" but cut 3.1416 worth of surface... meaning if you program 10 IPM feed your actual feed is 31.16" not the 15.70" feed your programmed.

Click to expand...

I like how you said/explained that, makes alot of sense.

D.D.Machine said:

feed is the centerline of the tool ... your feeding WAY to fast ... a 1" bore using a 1/2" endmill well travel 1.570" but cut 3.1416 worth of surface... meaning if you program 10 IPM feed your actual feed is 31.16" not the 15.70" feed your programmed.

Click to expand...

Wish we could like a post twice. That just clicked in my head. Thank you.

That elliptical example is probably too complex to diagnose. Here is a simpler feature (see toolpath in jpg) that showed the same problem. BTW, I am not a trained professional machinist - basically an advanced hobbyist, so I apologize ahead of time for missing dumb stuff.

In this part I wanted to bore a hole 0.501" to fit a 0.500" OD ball bearing in 1018 steel.



I used a 1/8" 4 flute carbide endmill at 10000 RPM (327 ft/min). Measurement of endmill diameter came out right at .125". Cutting feedrate was 24 in/min, but lead in and plunge feedrate was 6 in/min. When I simulated a simple bore operation it left a nub in the middle, so I used the HSM pocket feature to clear out the whole pocket. I'm not in a huge rush so I did fairly conservative multiple depths. I did measure with a caliper (sorry, I don't have a gauge pin set!) and it came out around 0.493", and I can't get the .500" ball bearing in there. A little funny this is my issue when all the complex 4th axis stuff came out great... Anyway, the g-code for the pocket is below:

(Pocket1)

bmazin said:

I was relying on HSM's g-code generation as I figured they'd be better at it than me. I did try changing the compensation from "in computer" to "in control" but I got the same result. I guess I'll dig into the g-code tonight and try to see if something is wrong there.

Click to expand...

"in computer" means that the code itself is compensated, without a G41 or G42 command to walk up to your dimension

"in control" means you need to comp both the diameter and wear in the control

"wear" means you only need to comp the wear

looking at your code above doesn't seem to have a G41 or a G42 command. That's probably why your parts are undersized

bmazin said:

That elliptical example is probably too complex to diagnose. Here is a simpler feature (see toolpath in jpg) that showed the same problem. BTW, I am not a trained professional machinist - basically an advanced hobbyist, so I apologize ahead of time for missing dumb stuff.

In this part I wanted to bore a hole 0.501" to fit a 0.500" OD ball bearing in 1018 steel.

View attachment 254093

I used a 1/8" 4 flute carbide endmill at 10000 RPM (327 ft/min). Measurement of endmill diameter came out right at .125". Cutting feedrate was 24 in/min, but lead in and plunge feedrate was 6 in/min. When I simulated a simple bore operation it left a nub in the middle, so I used the HSM pocket feature to clear out the whole pocket. I'm not in a huge rush so I did fairly conservative multiple depths. I did measure with a caliper (sorry, I don't have a gauge pin set!) and it came out around 0.493", and I can't get the .500" ball bearing in there. A little funny this is my issue when all the complex 4th axis stuff came out great... Anyway, the g-code for the pocket is below:

(Pocket1)

Code:

N5355 M9
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N9670 X-0.1847 Y-0.0337
N9675 X-0.1843 Y-0.036
N9680 X-0.1839 Y-0.0379
N9685 X-0.1786 Y-0.0581
N9690 X-0.1705 Y-0.0786
N9695 X-0.1688 Y-0.0821
N9700 X-0.1586 Y-0.1007
N9705 X-0.1584 Y-0.101
N9710 X-0.1458 Y-0.1184
N9715 X-0.1426 Y-0.122
N9720 X-0.1296 Y-0.1358
N9725 X-0.1275 Y-0.1378
N9730 X-0.1108 Y-0.1517
N9735 X-0.1074 Y-0.1539
N9740 X-0.0915 Y-0.1639
N9745 X-0.0888 Y-0.1654
N9750 X-0.0692 Y-0.1746
N9755 X-0.0689 Y-0.1748
N9760 X-0.0485 Y-0.1814
N9765 X-0.0439 Y-0.1825
N9770 X-0.0233 Y-0.1864
N9775 X-0.0231
N9780 X-0.0006 Y-0.1878
N9785 X0.0029 Y-0.1877
N9790 X0.0224 Y-0.1864
N9795 X0.0249 Y-0.1861
N9800 X0.0464 Y-0.182
N9805 X0.0478 Y-0.1816
N9810 X0.0673 Y-0.1753
N9815 X0.0709 Y-0.1739
N9820 X0.0903 Y-0.1647
N9825 X0.0939 Y-0.1625
N9830 X0.1094 Y-0.1526
N9835 X0.1122 Y-0.1505
N9840 X0.1279 Y-0.1375
N9845 X0.1291 Y-0.1364
N9850 X0.144 Y-0.1205
N9855 X0.1464 Y-0.1175
N9860 X0.1577 Y-0.1018
N9865 X0.1596 Y-0.0989
N9870 X0.1701 Y-0.0797
N9875 X0.1781 Y-0.0594
N9880 X0.1794 Y-0.0552
N9885 X0.1845 Y-0.0353
N9890 X0.1846 Y-0.035
N9895 X0.1874 Y-0.0129
N9900 X0.1875 Y-0.0083
N9905 Y0.0103
N9910 X0.1874 Y0.0127
N9915 X0.1846 Y0.0347
N9920 X0.1838 Y0.0379
N9925 X0.1792 Y0.0561
N9930 X0.1779 Y0.0601
N9935 X0.1698 Y0.0803
N9940 X0.1591 Y0.0997
N9945 X0.1573 Y0.1024
N9950 X0.1454 Y0.1188
N9955 X0.1442 Y0.1204
N9960 X0.1292 Y0.1363
N9965 X0.1264 Y0.1388
N9970 X0.1163 Y0.1471
N9975 X0.1146 Y0.1483 Z-0.1798 F6.1
N9980 X0.1127 Y0.1492 Z-0.1792
N9985 X0.1108 Y0.1497 Z-0.1783
N9990 X0.109 Y0.15 Z-0.1771
N9995 X0.1074 Y0.1499 Z-0.1755
N10000 X0.1062 Y0.1498 Z-0.1737
N10005 X0.1053 Y0.1496 Z-0.1718
N10010 X0.1048 Y0.1494 Z-0.1697
N10015 X0.1046 Z-0.1675
N10020 G0 Z0.6
N10025 M5
N10030 G53 G0 Z0.

Click to expand...

That code sucks because of the programming. its doing the hole in segments, I believe you can turn arc on or something like that and it will do rads.

however here is a better one

adjust it as need'd for depth and hole position... go to the tool number you are using to do the hole. put in the dia offset as the endmill you want to use. .125 for example


I would predrill a hold almost to depth. Lets say you drill to .250 dia.

G00 X0.0 Y0.0 ( change to your centerline of hole position)
G01 Z-0.03 F6.0 (Feed down to depth you want first cut)
G13 z-0.030 I0.1 k0.250 Q0.015 D1 F5.0 (this will start the circle at .200 DIA, take it to .500 DIA with .015 per side stock removal)

I= bore start Rad. K= bore finish Rad. Q= width of cut D= tool dia offset

to do many passes

G00 X0.0 Y0.0
G01 Z-0.03 F6.0
G13 Z-0.030 I0.1 k0.250 Q0.015 D1 F5.0
G00 Z0.1

G01 Z-0.06 F6.0
G13 Z-0.060 I0.1 k0.250 Q0.015 D1 F5.0
G00 Z0.1
etc etc

G01 Z-0.06 F6.0
G13 Z-0.060 I0.250 D1 F5.0 (Taking out the K and Q will just make a circle usually use this for finanl pass's)
G00 Z0.1

this starts in the middle uses cutter comp an spirals to size then spirals out. so it doesnt leeave a tool marks
heres some pictures. try to find this Manual its one of the only thing HASS did right. its a pdf file and your Dealer should have access to it. they used it for there training seminars years ago ( My wife went to them and this is her old one). I looked last night for it on there sight to no avail. If I find a pdf file of it on my PC I will upload it.
Hass should send this out with ever Machine, maybe they do now I dont know. its a life save for new programmers that are just starting out.

I have the latest version of the Haas PDF GCODE/Machine Operation manual referenced above. It is a great resource for understanding GCODE and the machine interface. Send me a PM if you want the workbook PDF (also has a separate "Answers" PDF).