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  1. #1
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    Default The dreaded tool pop...

    Yes I have used the search. I been getting the dreaded tool pop to the point my tool arm could be seen flexing as it pulls the tool out. I've tried to clean the taper and holders grease the stud and it gets better until just the smallest amount of coolant gets on the holder. I have slowed my tool changes to 25 percent just to let the coolant drip and not get on the holder taper. Is there any real solution other than just "clean the taper"? Possible other stuff not working properly or something? I don't want to get a tech in here just to tell me to clean the taper. Is this common in other brand machines too or more a haas thing?

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    In my experience, if using a lot of TSC, you need to grease the drawbar coupler frequently. Once or even twice a day sometimes.

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    grease is your friend. when you think you've put way too damn much grease, you've probably just barely put enough.

    also ensure your air supply is strong and consistent. if the machine is particularly old, you might want to have your drawbar solenoid and tool release piston inspected to see if they've worn out.

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    Haas Part #59-2832B
    The rubber disk inside tends to get soft and sticky especially if you have less than oil free air, slows the release.
    Inexpensive repair, always one spare handy:
    Humphrey Repair Kit - Cleaner's Supply

    Go thru the adjustment procedure in service manual - all the steps even if you think it looks good. If its been more than a year - remove the drawbar, clean and lube.

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    Thanks I'll check out those parts. My machine is fairly low hours 2017. As far as grease and cleaning goes it just seem like the sticking and popping happens to often to be just that. I don't know how people run their machines full tilt if they were always having trouble like I am. It just seems above what is consider normal. It is so annoying that if I can't get it fixed I would definitely reconsider buying another haas.

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    I feel your pain. I dont offer a fix but I have been there at my last shop. Ours was a VF3 with the umbrella style tool changer and that had to be replaces maybe 3 or 4 years after new because it was bent from popping tools.

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    Our vm2 with 12k/15k spindle pops. You can change tools back and forth with no pop, as soon as you run it, it becomes well seated. Doesn't matter if I oil the taper or not. The only thing I'd watch out for is a probe. One place had a sticky spindle and when it popped the probe out it was enough shock the send the probe out of calls by a few thou. I was the new guy and got blamed for crashing the probe until I was able to replicate the cause and effect.

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    Is this common on other brands too? Seems this tool pop is so common among the Haas. Tool change is so fundamental to the machines function that it just really ruins the experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyman View Post
    Is this common on other brands too? Seems this tool pop is so common among the Haas. Tool change is so fundamental to the machines function that it just really ruins the experience.
    Haas uses a pneumatic piston to drive out the tool, so it's very compressible and acts like a spring. Other manufactures may use a larger piston area and air flow control, giving a "firmer shove" to the tool, or a air-over-oil or pure hydraulic setup that's got better force control and less (or no) spring effect.

    I don't know if there's also something about the spindle heating and resultant suck-in of the tool taper that makes this worse, but it can't help. Why it's so variable among machines is likely due to age and/or condition of the solenoids and such that control the tool release, poor adjustment, gremlins and kobolds, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Haas uses a pneumatic piston to drive out the tool,

    WTF are you talking about!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Haas uses a pneumatic piston to drive out the tool
    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    WTF are you talking about!!!
    Umm, the TRP?

    Haas TRP - Google Search

    If'n I'm wrong why don't you show otherwise, rather than shitting your pants?

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    I've heard other machines do it, usually a quick wipe and light coat of way oil does the trick. That goes for haas too...usually lol. We run ours at 12k for sometimes hours on end, so I'm sure there's thermal expansion going on somewhere.

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    My '91 VF-1 has the umbrella changer so this may not relate but I coat the tapers with hard carnuba wax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Umm, the TRP?

    Haas TRP - Google Search

    If'n I'm wrong why don't you show otherwise, rather than shitting your pants?
    Uh, Seymour? Still waiting for your enlightenment...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Uh, Seymour? Still waiting for your enlightenment...
    You've said that: Haas uses a pneumatic piston to DRIVE OUT the tool.

    No, they do not DRIVE OUT the tool!!!
    They release the balls that retain the tool, and they are doing it by actually raising the bar in the opposite direction!!!


    Spindle - Drawbar - Troubleshooting Guide
    There actually was a very good video showing how it works ( I have a noise due to the pre-charge solenoid ), I'll be damned if I can find it....

    On Edit:
    OK, it looks like Haas has removed not only the video, but the website as well.
    It used to be on the diy.haascnc.com site, but that is now completely gone.

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    From Seymours link it looks like the exact same setup as a fadal drawbar. Seems like they don’t have what fadal calls a floater thought theirs is just built into the spindle.


    Well my fadal never bends the arm but after heavy radial tool loading or long runs if I do a hand change of the tool it definitely makes a loud pop sound and shoves it out a bit hard.

    I haven’t found a great solution except clean the holder and apply a light grease. Typically just the same grease I use on the drawbar/pullstuds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    You've said that: Haas uses a pneumatic piston to DRIVE OUT the tool.

    No, they do not DRIVE OUT the tool!!!
    They release the balls that retain the tool, and they are doing it by actually raising the bar in the opposite direction!!!


    Spindle - Drawbar - Troubleshooting Guide
    There actually was a very good video showing how it works ( I have a noise due to the pre-charge solenoid ), I'll be damned if I can find it....
    From your link, the drawbar is pushed down onto the top of the pullstud, and the drawbar itself has been pushed down by the TRP. As such, the TRP drives the toolholder down.

    The retaining balls release the stud because during the downward travel, they go from a constraining small bore above the taper section of the spindle to a larger bore (unconstrained) which allows the now free toolholder stud to push the balls outward and fully separate.

    In this manner the toolholder is released. Not sure what you're thinking, but I believe you to be wrong. Feel free to correct me if I'm off, but I don't think I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    From your link, the drawbar is pushed down onto the top of the pullstud, and the drawbar itself has been pushed down by the TRP. As such, the TRP drives the toolholder down.

    The retaining balls release the stud because during the downward travel, they go from a constraining small bore above the taper section of the spindle to a larger bore (unconstrained) which allows the now free toolholder stud to push the balls outward and fully separate.

    In this manner the toolholder is released. Not sure what you're thinking, but I believe you to be wrong. Feel free to correct me if I'm off, but I don't think I am.
    Exact opposite.
    The drawbar is lowered by the bellville springs, thereby trapping the balls around the pullstud.
    The tool release piston is actually working against the springs by pulling up the drawbar to relese the balls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Exact opposite.
    The drawbar is lowered by the bellville springs, thereby trapping the balls around the pullstud.
    The tool release piston is actually working against the springs by pulling up the drawbar to relese the balls.
    Hmm. I think at this point I will hope that a third party will step in to confirm or deny.

    I'll send this to a friend who's knowledgeable and see what he has to say. Being my friend won't stop him from correcting me if I'm wrong (he's done it before), but I still believe my description is the accurate one.

    [Edit: thread sent. I'm curious what my buddy has to say]

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    From post#7 of this thread:

    Alarm 130 - Possible causes/function

    The link no longer works and I could not find it anywhere, but it was a clear description of all the moving parts and air flow diagrams.

    Dunno why Haas took it off....


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