Examples Requested of External Indexer Usage on VF Machines - Both Methods

Revisiting this subject due to a pressing need.

The way I understand it, there are two methods of using a Haas External, stand alone indexer on a VF machine.

One, is to program moves into the stand alone indexer, and then use the CNC interface cable to trigger those "dumb" ( or simple ) indexing moves. This is the four wire cable that basically shorts to pins to tell it "move now", using an "M21" within one's G-coded program. After the move the indexer will send a signal telling the control, "All done now. Carry on." My understanding is that the four wire connection and using the "M21" are all that is necessary. ( aside from programming the indexer, locally )

Is this a correct understanding?

The second way, is to use an RS232 cable to interface with the indexer, and allows for more complex moves that are commanded down stream to the indexer with a series of commands, and said moves may not even be similar to each other. MY understanding is that this is a true two way communication over the RS232 cable. What is not clear to me is if the other ( four pin cable ) is also needed for this.

As well, the instructions for this leave A LOT to be desired from my point of view, so I am looking for someone that uses this method in effort to see if they can better explain it or even provide an example of its usage.

I get lost after the line about DPRNT...

Anyone?

Thanks.

I believe Stand alone your saying the Mill is not a Haas Mill with 4th Axis interphase.

I believe in that case you need to have a seperate Control Box for the Rotary. The Control box can be programmed to index, rotate at a feedrate with dwells OR make 4th axis moves that can coincide with the mills moves based on time calculations...kinda semi-synced.

The Control Box is triggered by an M-Switch on the mill through your program relayed through RS-232 cable.


My mills have 4th axis cards so played with it once years ago...but my Haas lathe uses a Control Box to run the Haas Barfeed via RS232

Okay... Something similar happened last time, too, so I must not be making myself very clear, here... Let me try again...

We have a VF machine.
The mill is equipped with an HRT210, already.

We have a stand alone indexer and its controller.
We have been using the stand alone indexer on a manual mill for a while.

Now, we want to do a few things in the VF machine, using the stand alone indexer.

For simpler stuff, we can easily disconnect the HRT210 and ( using a converter cable ) use the S5C instead of the HRT210.

That is NOT what I am inquiring about.

I want to know two things -

Am I correct in the assertion that one uses the four wire/pin cable in conjunction with an "M21" and that is all that is necessary?

And, if one desires to use the more advanced capability, using the RS232 cable interface, does one ALSO still use the four wire cable?

And... can someone provide an example of the code used while doing so?

Clear as mud?

Thanks.

Yes you are correct about the 4 wire and M21. Don't know about the RS232, I've never used it.
I found this: HAAS+SOHN HRT 16 OPERATOR'S AND SERVICE MANUAL Pdf Download.

What I gathered is RS232 can be used to upload/download a program to the box instead of punching it in by hand.
It would appear the RS232 can also feed indexing info from the main program via RS232 (that DPRNT thing)

There is a programming example in that link. Doesn't say about using both cables though. I would think using the RS232 to command the motion wouldn't require the 4-wire.

I'll weigh in with my understanding, for what it might be worth in this situation, but I'll probably wind up learning more from this thread than actually teaching anyone anything.

My Indexer is an old Haas 5C 7-pin, with corresponding model 5C Controller. The 5C controller communicates with the Haas controller via 4 pin communication cable. My machine already had the MFIN cable assembly installed in the cabinet, so connecting the 5C controller to the Haas controller is as simple as screwing the communication cable connectors in.

My controller doesn't have an RS232 port, so I don't have any experience with that, but my understanding is that by using the serial interface you are able to upload/download programs to and from the external controller. Meaning you can store the rotary indexer portion of your program as part of your g-code, whereas with the 4 pin cable, all you can do is tell the controller to 'go' and then receive back when it is 'done' - whatever happens in between those two events has to be programmed and stored on the external controller.

Have you reviewed the Haas manuals available on the DIY website? (I hate to ask or assume you're not thorough, but I blank sometimes.)

Booze Daily said:

I would think using the RS232 to command the motion wouldn't require the 4-wire.

Click to expand...

That's what I would think, as well. However, this seems to contradict that.

Page 19 -
FANUC control set-up requirements
There are several requirements that must be met before a Haas Servo Control can be interfaced with FANUC
controlled mill. These are as follows:
1. FANUC control with custom macro enabled and parameter 6001, bits 1 and 4 set to "1".
2. A serial port on the FANUC control must be available for exclusive use by the Haas Servo Control
while DPRNT program is running.
3. Single axis Haas Servo Control and Indexer/Rotary table. Note: A dual axis control will not work in
this application as the RS-232 communications port is being used for internal communication.
4. RS-232 shielded cable 25' DB25M / DB25M (null modem not required) Radio Shack Catalogue
no.RSU 10524 114 (see pinout below)
5. Shielded M-code relay cable Haas Automation Part Number : CNC

Now... another confusing point is the Axis designation. No one has yet been able to tell me if one has to use U/V/W, or if it could just as well be A/B/C for the Axis Select Code usage.

From that PDF -

NOTES:
1. Be certain to set FANUC parameters related to actual serial port connected to Haas Servo Control.
The parameters have been set for remote operation. You can now program, or run an existing program. There
are several key items you need to consider to insure your program will run successfully. First and foremost
DPRNT must proceed every command sent to the Haas Control. The commands are sent to the controller in
ASCII code and terminated by a carriage return (cr.). All commands must be proceeded by an axis select code
(U, V, W, X, Y, Z), parameter 21 = 6. For this explanation Z will represent the axis code.

The reason that I need to know, is that there will at some point ALSO be "A" axis commands. ( in the case of mounting this to a face plate/fixture on the HRT210 )

See where this is going...?

AND...

That relates directly to the coding for the DPRNT output.

As well, the PDF states that for FANUC machines, one must use a POPEN before the DPRNT, but nowhere does it say if this is true on a native Haas control...

And the list goes on and on... Hence the search for someone that has been here, done this...

Johnny SolidWorks said:

I'll weigh in with my understanding, for what it might be worth in this situation, but I'll probably wind up learning more from this thread than actually teaching anyone anything.

My Indexer is an old Haas 5C 7-pin, with corresponding model 5C Controller. The 5C controller communicates with the Haas controller via 4 pin communication cable. My machine already had the MFIN cable assembly installed in the cabinet, so connecting the 5C controller to the Haas controller is as simple as screwing the communication cable connectors in.

Click to expand...

Good to know. Thanks. Curiosity question - how is the responsiveness about the whole thing? Does it move fairly quickly/soon? How well does the control handle the operation in real life?

Johnny SolidWorks said:

Have you reviewed the Haas manuals available on the DIY website? (I hate to ask or assume you're not thorough, but I blank sometimes.)

Click to expand...

I have read each that I have been able to find, but that does not mean I have seen them all. As well, I have not seen one yet that seems to cover the topic very clearly...

An example would go MILES, here.

It seems the Haas serial port is always open, POPEN/PCLOSE is for Fanuc serial ports.
Haas Mills > Discussion on HAAS DPRNT

Also regarding axis selection from that same PDF:

"When more than one HAAS controller is daisy-chained, data sent from the PC goes to all of the controllers at
the same time. That is why an axis selection code (Parameter 21) is required. Data sent back to the PC from
the controllers is OR'ed together so that, if more than one box is transmitting, the data will be garbled. Be-
cause of this, the axis selection code must be unique for each controller."

I haven't been there done that, but maybe we can still get you going.

Booze Daily said:

Haas Mills > Discussion on HAAS DPRNT

Click to expand...

Thanks for the link. I am trying to slog through that, but that guy made it more convoluted that it should have been by constantly inserting his opinion, as well as the numerous edit insertions to correct the large amount of initial inaccuracies. It would likely have read much easier had he simply posted a cleaned up, corrected missive and been done with it.

Still reading... Still hoping that someone with experience here can add to the discussion in an effort to streamline this and keep things simple.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

See where this is going...?

Click to expand...

YES, yes I do! Saw it last year. Been waiting for you to figure this out (and teach me!)

wheelieking71 said:

Zahnrad Kopf said:

See where this is going...?

Click to expand...

YES, yes I do! Saw it last year. Been waiting for you to figure this out (and teach me!)

Click to expand...

LMAO!! Butt-munch... Okay, let's see if we can get this sussed out, then.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

LMAO!! Butt-munch... Okay, let's see if we can get this sussed out, then.

Click to expand...

Hi, my name is Johnny SolidWorks and I outsource all my thinking to American Machine and Gear Works and Bug Robotics.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

As well, the PDF states that for FANUC machines, one must use a POPEN before the DPRNT, but nowhere does it say if this is true on a native Haas control...

Click to expand...

From the manual:

POPEN and PCLOS are not required on the Haas machine. It has been included so that
programs from different controls can be sent to the Haas control.

Click to expand...

I've used DPRNT in the past without open/close on a 2014 machine. No issues.

thesidetalker said:

I've used DPRNT in the past without open/close on a 2014 machine. No issues.

Click to expand...

Are you using it for this purpose? ( indexer/rotary )

I'm slightly surprised that there is not more response about this. I have seen a fair amount of pictures of machines using indexers in this manner. So I would think that while it may not be ubiquitous, there would at least be some knowledge about it.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

I'm slightly surprised that there is not more response about this. I have seen a fair amount of pictures of machines using indexers in this manner. So I would think that while it may not be ubiquitous, there would at least be some knowledge about it.

Click to expand...

ZK - I've heard that the Haas service guys are pretty decent. Might be easier to just pick up the phone ...

Zahnrad Kopf said:

Are you using it for this purpose? ( indexer/rotary )

I'm slightly surprised that there is not more response about this. I have seen a fair amount of pictures of machines using indexers in this manner. So I would think that while it may not be ubiquitous, there would at least be some knowledge about it.

Click to expand...

The trouble with the Haas indexer is that it is an indexer not actually a true 4th axis.

Not sure exactly what you are trying to end up with but realize upfront that the Haas indexer will never be a true 4th axis and move in real time or do true coordinated moves.

It is possible to play around with certain timing and speed commands to emulate a coordinated move but it will never be there 100% and each new program will require adjustment for each change.

There are a lot of Haas indexers out there on machines that people pretend that they have a 4 axis machine when at best, is 3.5axis.

The problem is that the CNC control must output an ASCII string command to the Haas indexer and that there is no internal mechanism that the rest of the CNC control has to verify a controlled move occurred in the expected time given. There is a software handshake but this occurs at the end of each command upon completion.

Years ago we had a nice Fadal at work that had the Haas 210 indexer on it. I was requested to make this into a true 4 axis setup. The Fadal was equipped with a 4th axis card but someone had thought it prudent to save some money and only buy the Haas indexer instead of the a 4th axis that would have integrated with the Fadal 4th axis card.

To make a long story short, I told them that I can get the indexer to talk to the Fadal and to our programming PC and explained all of the limitations that this would have. The show stopper was when I asked them how they planned on programming this setup. Since this wasn't a real 4th axis, the Cad software couldn't create what was needed. The programmer and Fadal operator would be responsible for that and getting it to work consistently for each part program. After the deer in headlights look on everyone's faces, they started to realize that what they wanted was not very practical.

The Haas indexer has two separate methods of doing moves. There is a machine command move that utilizes the four wire cable. This is basically a start command move from the CNC and a command complete signal back to the CNC. This only supports preloaded move commands in the indexer control. This is basically incremental moves. The hydraulic lock is also unlocked at the start and relocked at the end of each move.

The other method is by ASCII strings of G code statements. This allows much more flexibility but with some serious limitations. This is a software only handshake and the realtime conditions can not be trusted for repeatability. This also does not use the 4 wire cable.

You can do some things such as milling a helical groove but even this will not be perfect since the CNC control will never know exactly when or where the indexer is positioned. It will only know an approximation since the CNC control never actually sees the encoder signals.

You can drip feed smaller incremental moves but the baud rate of the communications channel becomes a limiting factor and the limiting speed factor.

I hope this helps a little. Not sure if the Haas indexer will really get you where you need to be especially if if you are adding another axis down the road.

Ziggy sir - can you do chatter milling with it ? Not the same as a real machine but I have been surprised by how nice that can turn out. (Okay it's not nice but much less awful than you would expect.)

SeaMoss said:

Ziggy sir - can you do chatter milling with it ? Not the same as a real machine but I have been surprised by how nice that can turn out. (Okay it's not nice but much less awful than you would expect.)

Click to expand...

In essence that is what it really is. Depending on the part it can be easy or a real pain to get where you need to be.

Deleted. Ziggy's post blew mine out of the water.

SeaMoss said:

ZK - I've heard that the Haas service guys are pretty decent. Might be easier to just pick up the phone ...

Click to expand...

Friends with a few of them. The problem being encountered is that Haas has stopped officially supporting anything that old, and as the work force matures, ages out, or otherwise moves on with their lives, the people that were around and knew this stuff are no longer around, and people that are present now are not knowledgeable about this topic. The best one can hope for is getting an emailed PDF, which is not of much real assistance.