Haas 2006 Minimill TRP solenoid issue
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    Default Haas 2006 Minimill TRP solenoid issue

    Hey all, first post here after doing some searching with no luck.

    My 2006 Haas Minimill starting giving me fits a few days ago. As soon as I power on the machine the TRP solenoid (to release the tool) partially activates bleeding off a lot of air and makes a lot of racket. I get an intermittent "Tool Unclip" message on the control but no alarms/error messages.

    What I've tried so far:
    checked the voltage to the solenoid and am only reading about 85 volts.
    When I press the tool release button I get a sluggish release action.
    Air pressure appears to be correct (90psi).
    I unplugged and applied 120vt directly to the solenoid and got a normal tool release action.

    In some of my searching I came across the Haas "Tool Release Piston (TRP) - Troubleshooting Guide"
    In this guide it gives a parameter 71 value of 111000. Mine was set at 12000. I altered this value to 111000 with no change in behavior.

    Anybody have any suggestions? I cannot figure out why the solenoid would be getting voltage (much less incorrect voltage) when no tool change is being called.

    Quick clip showing the issue.
    https://youtu.be/MdU8B8EfoDM

    Thanks for any help you might have
    Brian
    Last edited by highroadtoolco; 12-27-2020 at 04:07 PM. Reason: More info

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    Sounds like it’s sticking .
    I took mine apart.cleaned it and worked perfect.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Hello and thanks for the tip. I'll give it a shot although I'm a bit confused as to why the solenoid would be getting voltage when I power up the mill. Seems it should only be getting power when doing a tool change. Do I have it backwards?

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    Pretty sure it gets voltage when it opens,so if it’s stuck open


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Just thought I'd post an update. I removed the solenoid and Mac valve, cleaned thoroughly and reinstalled. Unfortunately no change in the symptoms. I don't really think the problem is directly related the solenoid valve but of course I might be wrong. If I unplug the solenoid lead from the junction and actuate it manually with a 110 vt lead it all seems to operate as it should. No leaks and positive tool change action. Of course I cannot run it like that. Somehow I need to figure out why the control is sending that 85 vts to the solenoid at all times.
    Thanks again for any suggestions.

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    I really do not know your machine that well, but w/ the symptom you describe, I did a little google searching. Have you seen these?
    This one has you going to the rear, and then going to a solenoid TS link.
    Tool Release Piston - Troubleshooting Guide

    In the end, you can derive the expected 120Vac numerous ways. The manuals from Haas are pretty good as service guides go. They usually note how key voltages and signals are developed and pathed thru the internals. You can find them online.

    I would;
    1) dig into the manual and find the wiring and electrical overview for the source of the solenoid Vac supply. developed via I.O PCB? As a Relay contact or other?
    2) ensure that the 120 Vac leg is actually running correctly. And how is it routed to be switched to your solenoid... By that I mean it goes from some VAc junction block to an input block just waiting to run 102Vac stuff when 'switched' on. And from there can bounce around a PCB in many ways. heck, the I/O on my 98 is actually a really cool little board for what it does.

    Also I have has so many instances where the wire blocks had wires stuck in and the lugs never tightened. I make the kid go thru every block and check every screw now on new or used gear.

    Anywho... I think you know that the 85VAc is wrong and it's getting incorrect signal (turning on instantly) and looks like it's browning out (LoVAC). Go there next IMO.

    A few notes: I am not sure if the I/O PCB is part of the picture here but it probably has a relay or SCR or something in this mix? (guessing)
    Some guides from Haas on I/O PCB's
    I/O PCB - Troubleshooting Guide - NGC

    I do a LOT of R&R (rip & replace :-) (some knew it as repair & return.. but hey I like my version better. More accurate of what I do w/ my Son as chief Janitor and EE/T service provider.

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    Hi countryguy, Thank you very much for taking the time to respond. I've tried to follow some of your suggestions but haven't made much progress. From the electrical diagrams, it appears that I'm looking for relay 16 but damned if I can find it on the I/O PCB. Are there relays on the back side of the board? Heck even if I found it I'm not sure I'd know what to do with it. I'm a bit out of my element.

    I have traced the wiring and confirmed that the 85 vt output is coming from the I/O board and if I press the tool release button the voltage changes to 115.

    A previous owner of my mill used it for machining graphite electrodes for a while. I see traces of that black dust in the electrical enclosure which makes me wonder if I should try to clean it up a bit? Perhaps buying some of that canned air. Any input?

    I'll put in a call to my HFO this morning to see what they suggest.
    Thanks again!

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    Good to call the HFO for the DIY 'nudge' factor support as I tell them :-)
    I think this will probably be the manual unless you have a better link?
    https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/...ual---2006.pdf

    graphite.. hmmmmm
    Graphite is an interesting material, an allotrope of carbon (as is diamond). It displays properties of both metals, and nonmetals. However, like a metal, graphite is a very good conductor of electricity due to the mobility of the electrons in its outer valence shells.

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    Thanks again countryguy, I did run across that manual but so far I haven't gleaned too much with my limited knowledge of the subject.

    I spoke with Haas service this morning and it's not looking good. He originally thought it could be damage to the tool release button cable but we ruled that out. So he gave me the impression I'll probably need a new I/O PCB board ($3300 plus install). Sounds like the relay I've been searching for is a soldered on solid state bugger that is non serviceable(by me or Haas at least). I have a Haas service tech scheduled for an undetermined date a few days from now.
    I'm considering calling in an independent tech to have a look in the meantime if available.

    I did go ahead and pull off the upper boards and blew everything down with canned air hoping that some stray graphite dust was causing the issue. No improvement so I guess I'll have to leave it to the pros unless anyone has any more suggestions.

    Thanks!

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    any chance you can take a pic of the PCB board? a shot w/ the entire PCB, and then of the PN and REV printing (if it has it). In short, if we just google that PN, I'll get some hi-res pics of the PCB and can look at the board in detail.

    Not much on pic here, but I'm looking at it now
    https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/...ual---2006.pdf
    PAGE 45 of 202 Says IO PCB Rev U. checking the listing now for solenoid

    Like these:
    haas IO PCB - Google Search



    Quote Originally Posted by highroadtoolco View Post
    Thanks again countryguy, I did run across that manual but so far I haven't gleaned too much with my limited knowledge of the subject.

    I spoke with Haas service this morning and it's not looking good. He originally thought it could be damage to the tool release button cable but we ruled that out. So he gave me the impression I'll probably need a new I/O PCB board ($3300 plus install). Sounds like the relay I've been searching for is a soldered on solid state bugger that is non serviceable(by me or Haas at least). I have a Haas service tech scheduled for an undetermined date a few days from now.
    I'm considering calling in an independent tech to have a look in the meantime if available.

    I did go ahead and pull off the upper boards and blew everything down with canned air hoping that some stray graphite dust was causing the issue. No improvement so I guess I'll have to leave it to the pros unless anyone has any more suggestions.

    Thanks!

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    Plug 55 shown on the PDF on page 45, (your I.O PCb?) when zoomed in, is the only thing I see w/ Solenoids listed on the silk screen. right side, upper to mid quad edge. A shot in the dark, but that goes to cable 880A. is that the marking on the cable you unpluged?? if not, what is the cable ID you have up top and unplugged on the solenoid. They are all listed in the rear of that PDF link. Cable 880A breakout diagram is on page 84.
    When you can ID them, look them up and see where they go and often glean valuable info. manuals are such a wonderful thing.. just take them apart a bit at a time. smart people usually lay these out (in my experience).



    Quote Originally Posted by countryguy View Post
    any chance you can take a pic of the PCB board? a shot w/ the entire PCB, and then of the PN and REV printing (if it has it). In short, if we just google that PN, I'll get some hi-res pics of the PCB and can look at the board in detail.

    Not much on pic here, but I'm looking at it now
    https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/...ual---2006.pdf
    PAGE 45 of 202 Says IO PCB Rev U. checking the listing now for solenoid

    Like these:
    haas IO PCB - Google Search

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    Keeping these separate for you as I wrap up for the eve. Again, I do NOT know your machine - but...
    Page 65, is the 115V AC power cord lay out w/ the plug locations where you can check power (if this the same on a minimill?).
    And page 89 lists something interesting for a 3 way (series) solenoid power interlock? Cable 1040, (triple interlock).



    Quote Originally Posted by countryguy View Post
    Plug 55 shown on the PDF on page 45, (your I.O PCb?) when zoomed in, is the only thing I see w/ Solenoids listed on the silk screen. right side, upper to mid quad edge. A shot in the dark, but that goes to cable 880A. is that the marking on the cable you unpluged?? if not, what is the cable ID you have up top and unplugged on the solenoid. They are all listed in the rear of that PDF link. Cable 880A breakout diagram is on page 84.
    When you can ID them, look them up and see where they go and often glean valuable info. manuals are such a wonderful thing.. just take them apart a bit at a time. smart people usually lay these out (in my experience).

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    Here you go. Hope this will help you help me

    ST51051130
    3080U Rev. F

    img_3071.jpg

    img_3073.jpg


    As stated, I know very little about electronics but I think I've narrowed down what might be the problem components/relay. Followed trace from P55 terminal(cable 880A) lead that is reading 85vts. I see no signs of damage.

    img_3061.jpg



    Quote Originally Posted by countryguy View Post
    any chance you can take a pic of the PCB board? a shot w/ the entire PCB, and then of the PN and REV printing (if it has it). In short, if we just google that PN, I'll get some hi-res pics of the PCB and can look at the board in detail.

    Not much on pic here, but I'm looking at it now
    https://www.haascnc.com/content/dam/...ual---2006.pdf
    PAGE 45 of 202 Says IO PCB Rev U. checking the listing now for solenoid

    Like these:
    haas IO PCB - Google Search

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    K... you're reading my brain waves. My pic below. That's the area SO LONG as the cable 880A is the cable in question that you say you unplug from the solenoid.... yesyes? if not, we need to start over and get the cable from up top traced back. A fav line from Indiana Jones... "They are digging in the wrong spot".

    And you'll probably also need to chase down the interlock note I left you above cable 1040 possibly (page 89) again,... recall I'm guessing a lot here and never seen one of these before. but your getting the drift of how this goes. Get a bright torch and a magnifing glass (not joking( and often you can scan around and look and see a lot more).

    If this is 2nd base and were going for home, (the right cable) Can you get a closer up pic around that circuit area. Need to see the silkscreen of the C-xx and T or R-xx which indicates things that they do (functions). just of one of them. they all seem to repeat. And you may need to get he hrbor freight meter our and set it to OHMS and do a little ringing out (term for getting plug 880 traced to what exact part on that area.

    Calling it soon. will check back in 2mrw early US EST. Someone w/ another mini-mill will maybe chime in here? ? ?



    miniiopcb.jpg

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    I'm fairly confident I've checked all the power input connections and they appear to be okay.
    P60 +5V/+12V/GND TO I/O PCB
    P56 115V 3PH POWER SUPPLY - 114.7V
    P44 230V I/O COOLANT - TSC - 234V
    P39 CHIP CONVEYOR 230V - 235V

    The triple interlock doesn't seem to apply to my mill. I think it is for mills with door locks. I don't have a cable 1040 that I can find.






    Quote Originally Posted by countryguy View Post
    Keeping these separate for you as I wrap up for the eve. Again, I do NOT know your machine - but...
    Page 65, is the 115V AC power cord lay out w/ the plug locations where you can check power (if this the same on a minimill?).
    And page 89 lists something interesting for a 3 way (series) solenoid power interlock? Cable 1040, (triple interlock).

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    Yes the cable 880A is the cable that terminates at a junction/splitter at the spindle. The black wire (Tool Unclamp) is the wire that feeds the "tool unclamped solenoid" (and leads back to P55 on the I/O board).

    img_3075.jpg

    More pics of circuit area
    Backside

    img_3068.jpg

    img_3095.jpg

    img_3093.jpg

    img_3092.jpg






    [QUOTE=countryguy;3683426]K... you're reading my brain waves. My pic below. That's the area SO LONG as the cable 880A is the cable in question that you say you unplug from the solenoid.... yesyes? if not, we need to start over and get the cable from up top traced back. A fav line from Indiana Jones... "They are digging in the wrong spot".

    And you'll probably also need to chase down the interlock note I left you above cable 1040 possibly (page 89) again,... recall I'm guessing a lot here and never seen one of these before. but your getting the drift of how this goes. Get a bright torch and a magnifing glass (not joking( and often you can scan around and look and see a lot more).

    If this is 2nd base and were going for home, (the right cable) Can you get a closer up pic around that circuit area. Need to see the silkscreen of the C-xx and T or R-xx which indicates things that they do (functions). just of one of them. they all seem to repeat. And you may need to get he hrbor freight meter our and set it to OHMS and do a little ringing out (term for getting plug 880 traced to what exact part on that area.

    Calling it soon. will check back in 2mrw early US EST. Someone w/ another mini-mill will maybe chime in here? ? ?

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    More pics

    img_3091.jpg

    img_3089.jpg


    Pic below, circles show continuity, X - no continuity. Other lead on P55 terminal. Hope this is what you were after?
    img_3087-copy.jpg

    Okay my brain is about to shut down, Thanks again for sharing your time & knowledge to help me crack this nut. Much appreciated.

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    If you have 85 volts on the solenoid it looks like leakage.

    Does anyone have actual schematic of the control?

    If a solid state relay there could be an internal leaky component or there could be conductive crud someplace.

    You need to trace back the cable from solenoid to board.

    Confirm with ohm meter.

    Do 2 checks, simple continuity from end to end then measure coil resistance with cable connected and not connected.

    Measure again at circuit board, the resistance connected should be same and go open not connected.

    You need t be certain you have correct cable.

    Now if possible follow the trace to the active component, Google the number on it to identify it.

    Locate other same items on the circuit board too.

    Look for any crud, some denatured alcohol and a brush and rag can work miracles.

    Return all to normal and apply power.

    If you found the device on Google you can see control and voltage connections.

    Measure voltage on each pin when both active and not.

    Do same for another same device.

    If the device is bad the control voltages will be similar to the other device but the output different.

    If the drive to the device is bad the voltage will be different.

    Digikey likely has the device.

    If the Haas fix is new board and not exchange then changing device may be worth a shot.

    There are places that can replace the component, look up two way radio dealers and many have old folks like me who did component level and have the proper tools to replace if you bring the parts.

    Expect to pay a minimum charge.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

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    TY Tony! :-) again, Thanks for helping. I've just been doing the educated guessing game a lot here.

    K- I'll lay this out how I do it... What basic semi-conductors run this circuit and can I eliminate them as failed or good. If not... R&R rip and replace. faster, easier, but usually w/ experience. (so order 2 of each if you go down this path). :-) and see my 'but' notes below.


    The White 6 legger is a Fairchild, MOC3042 opto-Triac. (they blocked my digikey URL to the part.. I'll PM it if needed. It's a $1.04 per.

    https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MOC3043M-D.pdf

    To run it: a low level signal on the input 'fires' the Triac side (output) to switch an AC Load.
    Part 2: of 2 from your pic of Circles and 0's (NICE JOB btw). See how much fun getting into the guts can be :-p what I cannot see on the pics is what the TO220 item is? The black thing w/ the white block around the legs. Can you get me a pic of that item? I need to see the label.
    C-19 looks like a snubber cap. Might be good to look at that a wee bit too. if you see any markings...
    Tips for Practical Use: Snubber Capacitors | Basic Knowledge | ROHM TECH WEB: Technical Information Site of Power Supply Design


    Shotgun- A term we used in my depot days- We know the circuit is a opto-Triac and most likely that TO220 (black thing) which I need to identify. Order the Opto-triac and then the TO220 device. for a few bucks... what do you have to loose.

    The buts.... a) we have yet to eliminate the solenoid itself have we? is there 84 V. w/ it unplugged? Sorry if noted above.
    a') You may need a new solenoid? Like the notes above... Ohm that thing out too but I think you said you tested it above? (trying to rush to a call in a few mins).
    b) the input that fires the Opt-triac is a low level signal from where? Something tells the opto to turn on at the input. Not to complicate it, and its probably not the cause but you just never know. By input path to this is from where? circuit, wires, etc. or the device itself. The manual will lay out what happens to fire the


    IMO The small Resistors and Capacitors (C and R items) I am not concerned with at the moment. BUT- you can check these by comparison. We have repeating Circuit here. Compare Ohms from one circuit to the one next to it. Go 1 leg to GROUND, and them probe away from the bad to another. You can also phm PIN to PIN or node to node. TRy each side of the resistors on both circuits.


    Welcome to EET 101 and your doing a super job thus far. Lots to digest from my post and Tonys's. I need to go Zoom a few calls. I sure hope 21 be a recovery year for all.

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    ...how could I not share this .. Triac 101 in 2mins. Fast and easily explained.
    Triac, clearly explained... - YouTube


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