Haas in 2020 vs Hurco in 2020

Hey guys,

Newb to the forum, so if this is in the wrong place, Admins feel free to relocate the thread to the appropriate place.

I'm looking for feedback from owners of Haas CNC Lathes and Mills. Namely the ST-15 CNC Lathe and the Vf-3 Mill with a 4th Axis.

How are they for reliability and machine quality overall?

We used to have a Hurco CNC Lathe that we purchased brand new and it was nothing but problems. The software went nuts consistently and we ended up returning the machine as a result.

We're now looking for a replacement and the only information I can find is from 2018 or older threads.

Any personal experience and feedback on these two specific machines would be awesome.

Thanks.

I think from a machine mechanics side they are very similar machines. I think there are likely as many lemons with each company but has can seem like less due to their volume of machines in the US.

The motion control on the new hurcos is pretty impressive. They will handle any code you throw at them. I believe haas is similar though. So if you are dumping CAM code in its probably a wash.

Local service will be the biggest thing that makes your choice in this game.

I would like to say that the conversational on Hurco is phenominal. They may be the best in the game currently. But this only matters if you are finger banging your programs. Which we are 99%

We have had a few odd hiccups that were quickly resolved with HURCO. Other than that we run them like we didn't pay for them and they keep on making money.

I ran a shop in Sanford FL. that was full of Hurcos and they seemed to be an ok machine. I was hired in to do the more complex parts that the conversational side of the Hurco couldnt handle. They always had some little issue that created a big problem.

I went to work managing a big shop in China and they accidently ordered (2) Hurco VM-20i's. Absolute junk.

You can read some of my post about it here and see the power difference between Haas and Hurco below that link

Haas Vs Hurco Service and quality Apples to Apples

Haas VS Hurco... VF2-SS takes on VM-20 - YouTube

I can't say anything about Hurco but I can say if you are going to be trying to hold any type of tight tolerances, look past a HAAS. Where I use to work we had a 2007 VF3YT and 2009 VF2YT. Both great machines. I left to start my own shop and got a 2016 VF3. First thing I noticed is that after it got warmed up I would loose my G54 Y position by up to .0015. let it cool down and it would drift back closer to it's original G54 setting. Run another program and loose the Y again. I'm not talking about super long, multi hour programs either. It can be a high spindle 30 minute run and I loose the Y. Go to lunch and come back and the Y is back to it's original G54 again. I'm finding myself constantly resetting my G54 when doing multi tool finish programs.

My old boss, 2007 and 2009 machines, is a life long HAAS guy and went and bought a VM3 even after I told him about my issues. Sure enough, he immediately sees the same issues. He said he will never buy another HAAS.

Another guy we work with goes and buys a 2020 VF2SS and immediately sees the same issues. He will only use this machine for roughing from this point forward.

We are all injection mold builders. High tolerance fits and extended, high spindle run times. None of us can afford having a G54 Y setting move around like we are seeing.

We have all talked to HAAS, local and Corp California, and get the same response, "it's not that bad, we've seen worse." It all has to do with the column heating and cooling. If there is something with the axis controls there is nothing they can diagnose without blindly throwing parts at it at our expense.

As far as I can see, HAAS are great machines if you live in the +/- .005 world but when blend lines between cutters have to be non-existent or you need to move your part to an EDM and see the burn doesn't blend, they suck.

RCS Machine said:

I can't say anything about Hurco but I can say if you are going to be trying to hold any type of tight tolerances, look past a HAAS. Where I use to work we had a 2007 VF3YT and 2009 VF2YT. Both great machines. I left to start my own shop and got a 2016 VF3. First thing I noticed is that after it got warmed up I would loose my G54 Y position by up to .0015. let it cool down and it would drift back closer to it's original G54 setting. Run another program and loose the Y again. I'm not talking about super long, multi hour programs either. It can be a high spindle 30 minute run and I loose the Y. Go to lunch and come back and the Y is back to it's original G54 again. I'm finding myself constantly resetting my G54 when doing multi tool finish programs.

Click to expand...

What machines do you have, that do not have this issue? Do they have scales? Just wondering, as I see some drift when my machine runs several hours straight (back when I had that sort of work coming in anyway ). It's not a big deal to mitigate with in-process probing but would be nice to not have to worry about.

Regards.

Mike

RCS Machine said:

I can't say anything about Hurco but I can say if you are going to be trying to hold any type of tight tolerances, look past a HAAS. Where I use to work we had a 2007 VF3YT and 2009 VF2YT. Both great machines. I left to start my own shop and got a 2016 VF3. First thing I noticed is that after it got warmed up I would loose my G54 Y position by up to .0015. let it cool down and it would drift back closer to it's original G54 setting. Run another program and loose the Y again. I'm not talking about super long, multi hour programs either. It can be a high spindle 30 minute run and I loose the Y. Go to lunch and come back and the Y is back to it's original G54 again. I'm finding myself constantly resetting my G54 when doing multi tool finish programs.

My old boss, 2007 and 2009 machines, is a life long HAAS guy and went and bought a VM3 even after I told him about my issues. Sure enough, he immediately sees the same issues. He said he will never buy another HAAS.

Another guy we work with goes and buys a 2020 VF2SS and immediately sees the same issues. He will only use this machine for roughing from this point forward.

We are all injection mold builders. High tolerance fits and extended, high spindle run times. None of us can afford having a G54 Y setting move around like we are seeing.

We have all talked to HAAS, local and Corp California, and get the same response, "it's not that bad, we've seen worse." It all has to do with the column heating and cooling. If there is something with the axis controls there is nothing they can diagnose without blindly throwing parts at it at our expense.

As far as I can see, HAAS are great machines if you live in the +/- .005 world but when blend lines between cutters have to be non-existent or you need to move your part to an EDM and see the burn doesn't blend, they suck.

Click to expand...

LoL! We do much tighter work than that. It's about knowing the machine (Haas or otherwise) and what it will do and how to approach it. And yes, we really do much tighter work, all verified in our lab with a multitude of analysis equipment.

RCS Machine said:

I can't say anything about Hurco but I can say if you are going to be trying to hold any type of tight tolerances, look past a HAAS. Where I use to work we had a 2007 VF3YT and 2009 VF2YT. Both great machines. I left to start my own shop and got a 2016 VF3. First thing I noticed is that after it got warmed up I would loose my G54 Y position by up to .0015. let it cool down and it would drift back closer to it's original G54 setting. Run another program and loose the Y again. I'm not talking about super long, multi hour programs either. It can be a high spindle 30 minute run and I loose the Y. Go to lunch and come back and the Y is back to it's original G54 again. I'm finding myself constantly resetting my G54 when doing multi tool finish programs.

My old boss, 2007 and 2009 machines, is a life long HAAS guy and went and bought a VM3 even after I told him about my issues. Sure enough, he immediately sees the same issues. He said he will never buy another HAAS.

Another guy we work with goes and buys a 2020 VF2SS and immediately sees the same issues. He will only use this machine for roughing from this point forward.

We are all injection mold builders. High tolerance fits and extended, high spindle run times. None of us can afford having a G54 Y setting move around like we are seeing.

We have all talked to HAAS, local and Corp California, and get the same response, "it's not that bad, we've seen worse." It all has to do with the column heating and cooling. If there is something with the axis controls there is nothing they can diagnose without blindly throwing parts at it at our expense.

As far as I can see, HAAS are great machines if you live in the +/- .005 world but when blend lines between cutters have to be non-existent or you need to move your part to an EDM and see the burn doesn't blend, they suck.

Click to expand...

Lol What a load of crap!

We bought a DM1 n 2020 to do smaller work and because of the fact it fit into the space we had. Can run that all day, and night, with no drifting issues. Was told it was because it has less mass in the casting to retain heat and move around on you.

As for knowing the machine and how to approach the work, I thing between the 3 shops I mentioned with these issues, we have that down. We all can hold the tolerances, it's just the hoops that need to be jumped through.

My process is: daily morning warm-ups, if it's the start of a new project we "warm" the VF3 up with roughing programs. Never check the zeros until it's done and it may be off .0005-.0015. Reset G54 and start finishing. Might be a 5 minute program, might be a 12 hour program. Check the zeroes when there is a critical tool change and readjust G54 depending on where it's at. You can figure out where tolerances really matter and do those area all at once.

What I notice is if I don't run the machine to go to lunch or maybe a long phone call, I loose my G54 Y. So if I have to shut it down for a little while I virtually have to run the spindle for 10-15 minutes to get G54 back where it was when I left. Never had to worry about this on the mid 2000 machines. Those could be run hard all day, shut off and pick right up where you left off in the morning. G54 would be within .0001-.0002. Sure I could just keep the spindle running during down time but really?

I can't say anything about Hurco but I can say if you are going to be trying to hold any type of tight tolerances, look past a HAAS. Where I use to work we had a 2007 VF3YT and 2009 VF2YT. Both great machines. I left to start my own shop and got a 2016 VF3. First thing I noticed is that after it got warmed up I would loose my G54 Y position by up to .0015. let it cool down and it would drift back closer to it's original G54 setting. Run another program and loose the Y again. I'm not talking about super long, multi hour programs either. It can be a high spindle 30 minute run and I loose the Y. Go to lunch and come back and the Y is back to it's original G54 again. I'm finding myself constantly resetting my G54 when doing multi tool finish programs.

My old boss, 2007 and 2009 machines, is a life long HAAS guy and went and bought a VM3 even after I told him about my issues. Sure enough, he immediately sees the same issues. He said he will never buy another HAAS.

Another guy we work with goes and buys a 2020 VF2SS and immediately sees the same issues. He will only use this machine for roughing from this point forward.

We are all injection mold builders. High tolerance fits and extended, high spindle run times. None of us can afford having a G54 Y setting move around like we are seeing.

We have all talked to HAAS, local and Corp California, and get the same response, "it's not that bad, we've seen worse." It all has to do with the column heating and cooling. If there is something with the axis controls there is nothing they can diagnose without blindly throwing parts at it at our expense.

As far as I can see, HAAS are great machines if you live in the +/- .005 world but when blend lines between cutters have to be non-existent or you need to move your part to an EDM and see the burn doesn't blend, they suck.

Click to expand...

I have to wonder if you're in a climate controlled shop? We’re 40+ Haas with everything from DT1's to VF9's as well as UMC's and ST-y's. .0002 is nothing out of the ordinary to hit on any of ours. Granted we’re not gonna hit an interpolated bore are 500IPM and maintain .0002 but proper roughing and finishing strategies and ours holds its own against most other machines. Shop stays between 68-72 and we never have a problem.

All 3 shops are climate controlled. I try to stay between 65 and 70 year round. Doesn't matter the season as to seeing better or worse results. Don't get me wrong, we can all hit the tight tolerances but when you are constantly looking over your shoulder wondering or always checking your zeros, it gets a little old. What first brought this to my attention was an insert I sent out for EDM burned a little harder on one side than the other. Turned out that the mismatch was in the Y axis as I had it in my machine. This got me started playing around and keeping track of movement and when I started seeing how the Y moved around and the X stayed put. This is only a Y axis issue for all 3 of us. X stays within .0002 of it's initial G54 setting throughout the machining process.

As for speed and feeds, I'm maxed out at 800o RPM with the VF3 and rarely run a finish program over 60 IPM. We are by no means cranking these things up.

@Rcs. I know machine is new, but thermal comps might be messed up. I think the Haas just uses time/distance to determine thermal comp, no actual temperature checks. We had a machine years ago where Haas sent out 2 in-experienced techs and they started messing with our X comp values (without writing original down or doing a backup!), machine was never the same. The X would float around .002" IIRC.

I'm a one man, one machine, captive shop with a 2015 VF-3SS and a TR-160Y trunnion. After replacing the leaky rotary union the machine has been rock solid, and will hold .0002" all day. My parts are pretty small though, usually smaller than an inch. I have no idea of the volumetric accuracy over the whole travel. That said, I have the trunnion on one end of the table and a 3 axis second op setup on the other, and once my work offsets are set I never have to adjust them.

We run in 0.0005" Tolerance on our products.

Ugh this is a toss up on what to do. I absolutely love Hurco's machines, but that last experience has me uneasy about purchasing any more of them. The issues could never be resolved and it was a nightmare watching my machine work perfectly fine for say 50 pieces then randomly crash into the spindle with no warning.

I had software issues, Hydraulic issues, Freezing issues, The electronic tailstock is horrible. It skipped along the rail and never worked right. A lot of my partner shops run Haas and love them.

This info is a few years old, but there is a world of difference between the Hurco mills and lathes. They are/were primarily a mill company and the lathes were not nearly as good as the mills.

RCS Machine said:

I can't say anything about Hurco but I can say if you are going to be trying to hold any type of tight tolerances, look past a HAAS. Where I use to work we had a 2007 VF3YT and 2009 VF2YT. Both great machines. I left to start my own shop and got a 2016 VF3. First thing I noticed is that after it got warmed up I would loose my G54 Y position by up to .0015. let it cool down and it would drift back closer to it's original G54 setting. Run another program and loose the Y again. I'm not talking about super long, multi hour programs either. It can be a high spindle 30 minute run and I loose the Y. Go to lunch and come back and the Y is back to it's original G54 again. I'm finding myself constantly resetting my G54 when doing multi tool finish programs.

My old boss, 2007 and 2009 machines, is a life long HAAS guy and went and bought a VM3 even after I told him about my issues. Sure enough, he immediately sees the same issues. He said he will never buy another HAAS.

Another guy we work with goes and buys a 2020 VF2SS and immediately sees the same issues. He will only use this machine for roughing from this point forward.

We are all injection mold builders. High tolerance fits and extended, high spindle run times. None of us can afford having a G54 Y setting move around like we are seeing.

We have all talked to HAAS, local and Corp California, and get the same response, "it's not that bad, we've seen worse." It all has to do with the column heating and cooling. If there is something with the axis controls there is nothing they can diagnose without blindly throwing parts at it at our expense.

As far as I can see, HAAS are great machines if you live in the +/- .005 world but when blend lines between cutters have to be non-existent or you need to move your part to an EDM and see the burn doesn't blend, they suck.

Click to expand...

I don't think this a "load of crap" - A turd it is not.

I'm guessing here the power output of HAAS spindles in this case has increased (almost) substantially between 2007 and 2020.

So the right angled casting / bracket that attaches the spindle to the column seems to be heating up.

So being a complex do-dad thermal expansion will cause it to expand (get "bigger") in X... in Y and in Z.

The thermal expansion is symmetric in +ve X and -ve x (in the ZY plane) for the spindle head assembly, The Z expansion (spindle growth) is compensated by the control by moving the head up and away (when needed by tenths) and then back again when cooler, but the Y expansion is asymmetric towards the operator as it heats up. Also the bed at the column is not growing by the same amount in Y to match the heat build up of the spindle head assembly.

I believe the HAAS machines Dooooo have at least one or two temperature sensors in column and or head and hence have a fiddle / algorithm that pre-emptively backs the Z away ; HAAS claim they never violate the geometry of the part and hence one might need to sneak down onto a surface with an artful finish cut / spring pass. BUT that's mainly good for Z.

That does not help thermal expansion of the spindle head casting in Y due to greater spindle power output. (especially for an inline direct coupled spindle motor.).

Some models of HAAS will have thru-spindle coolant and that is one strategy (especially for Aluminum) and happens to keep the spindle and work zone at pretty much the same temperature.

If you are doing mold work on tool steels then presumably you are cutting DRY and don't have the benefit of the HAAS spindle cooling hack.

I believe the venerable @Gcoder_05and @Qwan (sp) once mentioned something about 3rd party spindle chillers for HAAS i.e. he has experience of hacking those together in number.


As to the smaller DM machines I assume they are thermally more stable as the spindle is not AMPED up so much ? Or does the whole machine get "Hot" in a smaller "Box" more evenly and the Y dimension of the spindle head bracket is much shorter than a VF3 ?

I get the differences in casting thickness variously through the machine.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________

** Just as a parallel "Observation" DMG MORI when they went from DMU 50 2nd gen to DMU 50 3rd gen had to make all kinds of changes and additional systems for a faster beefier machine- i.e. spindle chiller, very extensive cooling systems on ball screws, and bearings and other just to even out "WHOLE" machine thermal "Balancing" (as much as they could) + the greater mass of the machine means much greater inertia for large moving castings = more power electrically (servos etc) to throw the machine around ---> more friction and heat and on and on. - + scales as standard (rotary and linear).

~ There is something to be said for a slightly underpowered under "Amped" machine that can be very precise and reasonably stable especially when "babied" a little bit. Balls to the wall production and mold work not withstanding.

cameraman said:

I don't think this a "load of crap" - A turd it is not.

I'm guessing here the power output of HAAS spindles in this case has increased (almost) substantially between 2007 and 2020.

So the right angled casting / bracket that attaches the spindle to the column seems to be heating up.<Snip>

Blah blah blah bloody blah ...

Click to expand...

What a load of crap ! :p

Thought I'd say it before any one else did ...

cameraman said:

What a load of crap ! :p

Click to expand...

Indubitably.

______________________

foci33 said:

We run in 0.0005" Tolerance on our products.

Ugh this is a toss up on what to do. I absolutely love Hurco's machines, but that last experience has me uneasy about purchasing any more of them. The issues could never be resolved and it was a nightmare watching my machine work perfectly fine for say 50 pieces then randomly crash into the spindle with no warning.

I had software issues, Hydraulic issues, Freezing issues, The electronic tailstock is horrible. It skipped along the rail and never worked right. A lot of my partner shops run Haas and love them.

Click to expand...

The Hurco control does have higher bandwidth / faster processing for all axes especially if you are doing 3D contouring of one sort or another. On a "Mill".

20,000 block look ahead + decent "Path planning" and trochoidal strategies on the control. Better surface finishes even in "steels".

The VMXs are better machines than the VM(s). (Hurco VM(s)).

So you have Yaskawa Sigma V Digital Drives ... .625 millisecond (velocity loop) response time ~ (1.6 kHz)

Encoders: 1,048,576 counts per revolution <--- Not amazeballs but Ok ish.

Double nut pre tensioned ballscrews ,

Spindle chiller ,

there are 18K rpm integrated spindles with cooling as an option (spendy).

Not sure can't remember if Hurcos have core cooled ball screws ?

Scales if you want or need that. AND you can 3d contour with those scales.

I think the way the linear rolling elements rails / slides are keyed / anchored is more "sturdy" also than HAAS.

Hand scrapping on relevant joints less use of shims.

Buuuuuut it is a more expensive machine/ machines quite a bit more... almost a lot more :-)

__________________


So - control shit show random happenings on older Hurco lathes... ?

I'm wondering if the source of the problem might have been ironed out...
"
ITX Technology

The Hurco ITX design eliminated more than 200 plug-in connections and over 100 board level parts which results in very high reliability. The modular design minimizes downtime as the one-piece control module can quickly and easily be swapped out in the field. Configuration auto-back-up to flash drive for easy recovery."


Being integrated in Taiwan (mostly) reducing such complexity WILL increase reliability - seems Hurco is aware of that and aware of previous problems and at least has put substantial "Wood" behind the problem to seemingly eliminate "Murphy's law" when being assembled.

Solid state drives do have volatility problems if they aren't powered up on a regular basis.

I agree that buying a more complex Hurco lathe / turning center could be a gamble but if you have a clause for refund and machine removal that might be worth it ?

For the heavier newer machines iron made in Taiwan - should be Ok ish ? Maybe ? ... ?

@ Cameraman, what was with all the quoting yourself about??

Also, per your comment about the coolant 'chilling' the spindle. You can still do that cutting dry. Just turn or block all but one nozzle and point it to back of machine, or attach a piece of longer hose and a weight of some sort and drop it down on the floor of the enclosure. I've done it many times as we used to surface hardened steel in another life.

Mike1974 said:

@ Cameraman, what was with all the quoting yourself about??

Also, per your comment about the coolant 'chilling' the spindle. You can still do that cutting dry. Just turn or block all but one nozzle and point it to back of machine, or attach a piece of longer hose and a weight of some sort and drop it down on the floor of the enclosure. I've done it many times as we used to surface hardened steel in another life.

Click to expand...

It's OK I expect a number of people to think I'm full of sh*t which is the normal response - especially if one is seen to be Haas bashing or Okuma bashing or whatever "Bashing" ... (This is the HAAS "friendly" section of the forum. + Op's inquiry + "Update" or need to know aspect of 2007 vs 2020 .)

So I thought I'd beat everyone to that. It's "Humor" . (riffing of machineit2's comment lol) - I get that higher tolerance work on a HAAS is possible depending on actual cuts ... and "Approach" / mapping things out. (as you say @ Mike1974 ).

Here's the thing I don't want to baash HAAS 'cuz it IS the home team and we all want HAAS to be the best as they can be (without doubt). At least for their machines to be as good as they can possibly be within the limits of the HAAS business model.

It's good that people can and do really good work with them.

How straight would you reckon a HAAS VF3 can move and cut in X and respectively in y over over 100mm and over 200 mm .

Best guess or measured ?

BTW that's a fantastic hack ! (Thumbs up / real gem) .- That probably evens things out (thermally) pretty well .