Haas machine heat output?
Close
Login to Your Account
Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default Haas machine heat output?

    I'm a machining apprentice and I'm currently coordinating with an HVAC contractor for my company's new shop- we have a Haas ST-30Y and a Haas VM-3 that we're putting in a new, soon-to-be HVACed space so that we can control for tolerances in the metal that we machine. The contractor asked me about the BTUs associated with the machines we use, and I can't find that info anywhere. What's the heat output on these machines like, and what should I tell the contractor?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Madera county california usa
    Posts
    2,468
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    21
    Likes (Received)
    617

    Default

    Machine itself is easy...power consumed in watts x 3.42 is btu heat.

    But the cutting heat depends on material, speed and tooling combined with many other things.

    Should be some engineering standards that are generic in nature that could be used to approximate it.

    There are experts here that have done this already and may be able to provide a better assist.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  3. Likes Nic_Machines liked this post
  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Kansas
    Posts
    17
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    30
    Likes (Received)
    9

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nic_Machines View Post
    I'm a machining apprentice and I'm currently coordinating with an HVAC contractor for my company's new shop- we have a Haas ST-30Y and a Haas VM-3 that we're putting in a new, soon-to-be HVACed space so that we can control for tolerances in the metal that we machine. The contractor asked me about the BTUs associated with the machines we use, and I can't find that info anywhere. What's the heat output on these machines like, and what should I tell the contractor?
    Our HVAC installer told us we needed 5 Ton of A/C for our space. Boss said "OK, quote us for a 10 Ton installation". It has always been good for us. Even if you come in on Sunday and turn it on in the heat of the day, it's tolerable about 45 minutes later.

  5. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern CA
    Posts
    1,088
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    67
    Likes (Received)
    146

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nic_Machines View Post
    I'm a machining apprentice and I'm currently coordinating with an HVAC contractor for my company's new shop- we have a Haas ST-30Y and a Haas VM-3 that we're putting in a new, soon-to-be HVACed space so that we can control for tolerances in the metal that we machine. The contractor asked me about the BTUs associated with the machines we use, and I can't find that info anywhere. What's the heat output on these machines like, and what should I tell the contractor?
    I would think that how well the building is insulated would have a lot to do with the amount of BTU's needed.
    Don't forget about the stack of resisters on the back of the Haas where they dump the power generated by stopping the spindle, on short cycle jobs those babies put out some heat.

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    657
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    66
    Likes (Received)
    122

    Default

    How much space do you have to cool and is this an insulated building, how many window to the outside?

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Quiring View Post
    Machine itself is easy...power consumed in watts x 3.42 is btu heat.

    But the cutting heat depends on material, speed and tooling combined with many other things.

    Should be some engineering standards that are generic in nature that could be used to approximate it.

    There are experts here that have done this already and may be able to provide a better assist.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
    Thanks for the help, that should help us get close to what he's looking for. How much of the cutting heat do you think is mitigated by the coolant? I'll look into the engineering standards online to see if there are any specifications for material-specific calculations, but I think the contractor is looking for something pretty generic, especially since our shop is going to be using the machines for a variety of materials anyways.

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MaCon View Post
    Our HVAC installer told us we needed 5 Ton of A/C for our space. Boss said "OK, quote us for a 10 Ton installation". It has always been good for us. Even if you come in on Sunday and turn it on in the heat of the day, it's tolerable about 45 minutes later.
    The guy has a 10 ton unit he thinks will be sufficient for the space, but wants to make sure especially since he knows nothing about the machines and how much they could heat up the space. We're looking for HVAC so we can know what temperatures we're machining our metals at, though we've found it's a huge pain to figure out and get installed.

  9. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizer View Post
    I would think that how well the building is insulated would have a lot to do with the amount of BTU's needed.
    Don't forget about the stack of resisters on the back of the Haas where they dump the power generated by stopping the spindle, on short cycle jobs those babies put out some heat.
    I'll definitely keep that in mind. A lot of what we do involves short-cycle jobs unfortunately, so I guess especially in that case having HVAC makes sense for us. The building's pretty well insulated, and the contractor's been to the building, he just needs the heat output for the machines to accurately make his prediction for what we need.

  10. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2020
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Oregon
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1
    Likes (Received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by machineit2 View Post
    How much space do you have to cool and is this an insulated building, how many window to the outside?
    It's a 2600sf building with probably 23' ceilings, with a mezzanine about halfway up and covering half of the space. Two small windows at the very top of the walls, and the whole thing is pretty well insulated. We're in the middle of the building too, so there's good insulation on either side of us.

  11. #10
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,124
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1397
    Likes (Received)
    769

    Default

    The energy in the heat of the cut still comes from the electric power input, and even if it goes into the coolant or workpiece it's still going into the air later. The electric power input is the only source of energy, so that gives you the answer. That said, the actual amount of power you use will depend on how hard you're working the machine; it will hardly ever be close to the rated power of the machine.

  12. Likes aarongough, Red James, rcoope liked this post
  13. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2019
    Country
    UNITED STATES
    State/Province
    Texas
    Posts
    167
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    12
    Likes (Received)
    20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    The energy in the heat of the cut still comes from the electric power input, and even if it goes into the coolant or workpiece it's still going into the air later. The electric power input is the only source of energy, so that gives you the answer. That said, the actual amount of power you use will depend on how hard you're working the machine; it will hardly every be close to the rated power of the machine.

    I've heard "you can't create or destroy energy. Only manipulate it from one spot to the next."

  14. Likes mhajicek liked this post
  15. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Madera county california usa
    Posts
    2,468
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    21
    Likes (Received)
    617

    Default

    The coolant only transfers heat from cut to coolant.

    Conversion of electrical watts into BTU is what we use for electronic loads.

    We agree that the energy shown on the power meter should convert to cutting heat but our original post did not make that relationship.

    We are guessing that it is true relationship but that there may be some other ratio.

    We also assume some engineer already has done the work and can provide exact.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

  16. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Staten Island NewYork USA
    Posts
    3,784
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1108
    Likes (Received)
    1817

    Default

    So if I've got this right...if my 3 phase 208 machine is running along using 17 amps of power I am generating 1 ton of heat, more of less.


    So the ballpark figure tossed out by the HVAC guy was 1 ton per machine, a few more for the guys, couple for lights was about right.

  17. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,248
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    733
    Likes (Received)
    987

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    So if I've got this right...if my 3 phase 208 machine is running along using 17 amps of power I am generating 1 ton of heat, more of less.


    So the ballpark figure tossed out by the HVAC guy was 1 ton per machine, a few more for the guys, couple for lights was about right.
    That works out for single phase, 3PH delivers roughly 1.73 times the wattage of single phase (assuming line to line voltages and power factor of 1.0).

    (208v x 1.732) x 17A = 6,124W

    6124W = 20,944BTU

    But that assumes a duty cycle of 100%, I seriously doubt any of us run our machines at 100% all the time

  18. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Staten Island NewYork USA
    Posts
    3,784
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1108
    Likes (Received)
    1817

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aarongough View Post
    That works out for single phase, 3PH delivers roughly 1.73 times the wattage of single phase (assuming line to line voltages and power factor of 1.0).

    (208v x 1.732) x 17A = 6,124W

    6124W = 20,944BTU

    But that assumes a duty cycle of 100%, I seriously doubt any of us run our machines at 100% all the time

    Thanks for the 3 ph explantaion part.

    17 amps is less then half what most of the machines are rated for...but with your numbers half of my 17 amp would still put out almost a ton of heat.

  19. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Country
    CANADA
    State/Province
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,248
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    733
    Likes (Received)
    987

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    Thanks for the 3 ph explantaion part.

    17 amps is less then half what most of the machines are rated for...but with your numbers half of my 17 amp would still put out almost a ton of heat.
    Yeah, one thing to bear in mind though is that the amperage rating on the machine is 'full load amps' (FLA) which means the absolute max that the machine is ever going to draw.

    So if your spindle is rated at 200% load for 10 minutes (or whatever) then the FLA is reflective of that. It's very unlikely that you'll hit even 50% of FLA during a typical cycle except for short periods. And then there's the downtime during tool changes and parts changes... I think if you averaged it all out the power draw would be something like 25% of FLA for most people's machines, if that to be honest!

  20. Likes mhajicek liked this post
  21. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Staten Island NewYork USA
    Posts
    3,784
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    1108
    Likes (Received)
    1817

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by aarongough View Post
    Yeah, one thing to bear in mind though is that the amperage rating on the machine is 'full load amps' (FLA) which means the absolute max that the machine is ever going to draw.

    So if your spindle is rated at 200% load for 10 minutes (or whatever) then the FLA is reflective of that. It's very unlikely that you'll hit even 50% of FLA during a typical cycle except for short periods. And then there's the downtime during tool changes and parts changes... I think if you averaged it all out the power draw would be something like 25% of FLA for most people's machines, if that to be honest!

    Very true...but our numbers still match. I was basing off 40 & a couple 60 Amp breakers. 25% of that is 10 amps. One of my 60 amp machines I believe the electrician said it was running at around 12 amps and that is with a transformer in line too.

    I figure you can always estimate high on tonnage of AC needed and turn the thermostat down then be wrong and not be able to deal with the amount of cooling needed. It would be lousy to pay the Power company a bunch of money and still be sweating your _____ off. I had gone through this with a HVAC guy, but he didn't divulge his formulas...if he was using or just going off the seat of his pants. In any case it just got out of my budget and we went to early hours.

  22. Likes aarongough liked this post
  23. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Northern CA
    Posts
    1,088
    Post Thanks / Like
    Likes (Given)
    67
    Likes (Received)
    146

    Default

    Don't forget those regen resistors, I have warmed my lunch thousands of times just setting it atop of the resistor box for a half an hour.


Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •