Haas Mini Mill WTF

I called Haas Thursday about upgrading the memory on my mini from 1 to 16mb. I thought it was a total rip off that it was going to cost, what I thought, $995.00, but what can you do.

Apparently, they were too busy to deal with me, so they told me they would contact me today. Well, they never did call, but when I got back out to my shop, I get a fax in for the upgrade.

Here it is:

16 Megabyte upgrade: $995.00
Main Processor Board, 16MB with math Co-Processor: $2250.00*
App. 2 hours labor at $105.00 per hour: $210.00
Travel Charge: $150.00

*You will receive full credit, in the amount of $2250.00 for this part after Haas receives the old 1MB processor back in good working condition.


Wow, what a deal.

I guess the $995.00 that I thought was outrageous was way too little money for them.

I guess it's going to cost me $3605.00 up front, then when they get to it, I get $2250.00 back, which brings the total bill to $1355.00.

I wonder if I could just trade the damn thing in on a new VF2? But then again, they probably wouldn't give me anything for mine, even though it's only 2 1/2 years old.

Welcome to the world of "CNC Controller Memory Upgrade Rip Off".....

In terms relativity,.... Haas is actually one of the "cheaper" ones (for mainstream machines). Some makers will ask upwards of $5000+ for memory, and then some for add-ons (extra HDs, etc). So then, you think "well screw it, I'll just drip feed". On some makes, that option can cost the same as well.

You definately have to think of these things up front. And without a bunch of experience, many people don't realize what they don't have... until they need it.

On the Haas, I think you can drip feed as a standard (don't know anything about the mini mills). You can go that way instead of buying memory if you want.....

I did try the "drip feed", and it dripped way too slow :lol

Seriously, it didn't work at all for the program I was running. It kind of just sat there and waited for some reason for new code to come in.

my mini drip feeds all the time. You can crank up the baud rate pretty high as well. I've done lots of surfacing with mine in DNC mode, and it works well. right up untill it runs into the need for lookahead. I don't have HSM on mine

I cranked up the baud to 9600 and was spinning it fast as it can go (6k rpm) with a 60ipm feed, it didn't like it.

Oh well, it looks like if I'm going to do this, I better see if there's any other options I might need and get them all at one time.

Bender

Look at tis from Gar:

http://www.beta-a2.com/baud_rate_useage.html

You can put yourself into the #6 category of 115Kb transfer speed. Mini can do it outta the box.
Never drip fed, but saw it done with no hesitation at 80IPM in some really small cavities on a trunnion.

Seymour, that is VERY interesting!!!

I'm going to have to try that this weekend!

WOW!!!

I checked and I had the baud set at 19.2k for some reason, cranked it up to 115.2k, modified a quick 5mb program, and IT WORKED!!!!

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

Bender:

Here is the experiment to run.

Make a short RS232 cable, 6 ft. Take your computer to the Haas machine as a temporary measure.

Set parameters to 115.2 kbaud, 7 data bits, 1 stop bit, even parity. Identical at both the HAAS and PC. Handshake must tbe the same at both ends. If you use software handshake, XON/XOFF, then only 3 wires are needed. These are 2, 3, and 7 at the HAAS end, and 2, 3, and 5 at the 9 pin PC end. In this case 2 to 2, 3 to 3, and 7 to 5. For this short cable don't worry about a shield, but if the cable has one, then connect it to pin 1 on HAAS.

In your PC, assuming windows and a moderately new computer within last 10 years, then in device manager uncheck "use FIFO" for the COM port you are using. May not be necessary for HAAS, but may be a requirement for Fanuc.

First, empty HAAS memory as much as possible. It would be good to be 90% empty. Probably good to run your first tests in graphics mode.

Put HAAS in DNC mode, then push RECV 232.

Start sending your program from the computer. As data comes in it will scroll up the screen. Let this continue until it stops which means HAAS is full. Now push the start button.

HAAS uses all of its available memory for a buffer in DNC. You will see bursts of time when the data scrolls up, and stops.

The CNC needs data at varying rates depending upon on how long each line of code requires for execution. Data on an instantaneous basis can flow much faster from the buffer than from the serial port. So long as the average demand by the CNC for data is less than the average rate of the RS232 input there will be no starvation of the machining operation from the RS232 channel.

If you do not have communication software that can handle this rate, then download the 30 day trial copy of CIMCO Edit 5 from
http://cimcosoftware.com/
.

Ideally you should get your 120 V for the computer from the HAAS machine or a control transformer. To minimize ground noise, and/or fault problems.

If you want to work with a longer cable between the CNC and PC, then consider our I232 Isolator and Long Cable Length System. Our main page is
www.beta-a2.com .

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Seymour will be expecting his commission check in 10 days. Cash is good too

Two words. "drip feed"

Actually Seymour is expecting his undeserved 2 weeks of vacation in 10 days.
Seriously getting grumpy lately, need to shut off the lights, lock the doors and bury the phone 10 feet deep. May even dig it up when I get back. Maybe.

I guess I would be out of line asking why the hell the CNC machine builders can't get into the 21st century. After all we are almost 10% into it. RS232 serial communication was last used (by anybody else) in the last millennium. Probably by mid-century you will be able to buy a Haas with USB 1.0 or maybe even 10 Mbit E-net. Don't want to jump in early, after all that is only 20 year old technology so not really proven yet.

Is the $995 for core memory, or have they made the technology jump to solid state yet?

Actually you don't need to wait 'til mid-century.
Haas had the Enet/HD option available as of 98% into the last one.
The memory is RAM, so we are not talking about "storage" memory, which cannot be used (not yet anyways) for system memory.
RS232 OTOH works for 99% of the stuff out there. The fact that it's roots are nearly 50 years old does not make it obsolete. New buses and protocols are certainly available, but they do require hardware and software additions in your PC. RS232 though is readily available on just about everything.
The CF card on the Fanuc is a very nice feature, but if you ask me I only use it because it's easier on my control. On the HAAS for not very large programs RS232 is just way sweet. Open com-sw, hit send. On Haas push recv 232. Done.
WOuld I get the Enet option? Not until it's used to it's full potential, as in remote monitoring, simulation on PC using machine control logic, tool data pre-loading etc.

swarf_rat:

Broadly there are two types of semiconductor memory that are fast and useful for an extremely large number of read-write cycles. These catogories are dynamic and static.

Dynamic is volatile in a very short time, milliseconds, and constantly requires refresh. This is rather low cost memory because it is manufactured in very large quantities and requires much less silicon per bit of memory than static memory. To keep this refreshed with main power off requires fairly large batteries.

Static memory consumes much more silicon per bit, requires power to be maintained to retain memory, but the power to retain memory for a long time, like a year or more depending upon the application, is extremely small requiring only a very small battery. It is manufactured in much smaller volume than dynamic memory and that coupled with the greater amount silicon results in a higher cost per bit.

From a manufacturing point of view, meaning HAAS, the cost of CMOS static memory is not nearly as great as their selling price.

However, keep in mind that if HAAS is to continue doing new R&D and lowering the base price of the machines, then they need to make money somehow. Options are one way.

Are you better off being able to buy a HAAS at whatever cost to you, than if that cost was marginally lower, a few percent lower, and there was no improvement in the machines from year to year? Or are you better off over the long range with a slightly more expensive machine that provides R&D money so that in the future you can buy a machine with more capability?

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Gar

I believe by "Solid State" he meant some kind of Flash-RAM device as system memory.
That technology AFAIK does not yet exist due to speed limitations.

Seymour:

I had understood his core memory reference to be a sarcastic reference to toroids with wires strung thru them which were the primary means for high speed read/write memory until the mid-1970s.

In my previous post I failed to indicate that CMOS is used instead of dynamic for non-volatile memory because it is an effective solution for a reliable system that requires no external memory to load it when powering up and provides extremely reliable operation of retaining data during power down. In the 14 years we have had HAAS machines I do not believe we have ever had a change of data in memory from powering down and up.

For reasonable size CMOS memory we are talking about microamps for standby backup current at 3 V.

I have used battery backed CMOS memory since 1974 for data storage with virtually no problems thru power down and up, lightning storms, and other power outages. Our equipment powers up immeadiately after an interruption, whereas equipment based on personal computers may have all sorts of problems under these same conditions. We use EPROMs for program storage, and CMOS for data storage.

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Gar, you could be correct. Did not think of the sarcastic angle of the comment.
I made that assumption since he had poo-pooed RS232, which is certainly old but not dead.
USB will not get ya 100' but it's PnP. E-net already exists on Haas and on Fanuc. RS232 is everywhere, simple and reliable enough for this purpose.
Pick what you want.