Haas owners Unite! Creating a statement to get better support for older Haas machines
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  1. #1
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    Default Haas owners Unite! Creating a statement to get better support for older Haas machines

    Hi guys,
    Here's a preliminary post that's meant to be edited, made punchier, and then pushed as a "Declaration of Rights" for Haas customers. Please go over this, suggest changes or additions, and let's show Haas we're not going to accept their retreat from proper support!

    Hi fellow Haas owners,

    Haas used to have a great reputation for making simple, functional machines, well supported by a network of repair techs and vans stuffed with commonly needed parts. Many of us bought our first Haas due to this support, as well as the pride of buying from a "Made in the USA" machine tool company. Whether your machine was brand new, or one from the '90s, you knew you could get the machine fixed rapidly if it went down.

    This has changed over the last decade. Newer machines were released with somewhat buggy software, and not always updated in a timely manner. But even more concerning, critical parts of the control system for older machines have been declared "obsolete" by Haas, and in some situations your machine can only be repaired by a systematic replacement of the electronics and control elements, at a cost in 2018 approaching $20,000 USD. This is much more than even 2017, when it was less than half that.

    Now, Haas is an independent company, and they can price things as they see fit. But they must also factor in consumer (that's us) reaction to their policies. As business owners, a company that tells us "tough luck" when we ask why older control boards aren't available may not be one we want to deal with. And if we work for a larger company as skilled machinists, we have to explain to management why their expensive labor and machinery isn't producing.

    It comes to this: Does Haas want our business? Do we want to be subject to arbitrary decisions regarding "end of life" electronic components? And make no mistake, there's no such thing as an "unavailable" processor or chip, as there's specialty "foundries" that will make fresh silicon at reasonable cost. And instruction sets don't "vanish", they're either archived at the factory or still present in older, functioning boards.

    As grumbling individuals, we're reduced to either paying up, or abandoning our investments and getting newer machines. From other vendors, because why would we buy from a company that's damaged us?

    But there's thousands of Haas machines represented on Practical Machinist. How many? Well, let's find out! Are you willing to add your name to a polite statement to Haas CNC that requests they re-think their policy on support for older machines? If you own newer versions you should sign too, as this could be your fate in the future.

    Give your thoughts on this thread, and we should be able to hone a well executed statement to Haas. Once we have that, we can present it to Haas management. Their response will determine whether they truly value us as customers and as partners in manufacturing, or whether we're just as disposable as their older machines.

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    Ya gotta remember, those formula one cars aint cheap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Dickman View Post
    Ya gotta remember, those formula one cars aint cheap.
    If we could only get Grosjean to keep it on track, we'd cut down on replacement parts costs!

    Jeez, talk about thread (four wheel) drift. And on the first response, too...

    Well, parts cost! That's what it's all about!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    If we could only get Grosjean to keep it on track, we'd cut down on replacement parts costs!

    Jeez, talk about thread (four wheel) drift. And on the first response, too...

    Well, parts cost! That's what it's all about!

    I myself have had great luck with Haas service. But, being more or less local, that may have something to do with it. Remembering back to when I had all new Mazaks, in my opinion, Mazak makes great machines, but their service is a living nightmare.

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    I've generally been satisfied with my service, but I haven't needed a new computer board yet. That's the issue, some boards (and other parts) are no longer available, and the reasons are more for Haas's wallet than reality. We know these boards can be made again, the question is whether Haas cares if we abandon their old machines and the Haas brand?

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    Default Okuma parts

    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Hi guys,
    Here's a preliminary post that's meant to be edited, made punchier, and then pushed as a "Declaration of Rights" for Haas customers. Please go over this, suggest changes or additions, and let's show Haas we're not going to accept their retreat from proper support!

    Hi fellow Haas owners,

    Haas used to have a great reputation for making simple, functional machines, well supported by a network of repair techs and vans stuffed with commonly needed parts. Many of us bought our first Haas due to this support, as well as the pride of buying from a "Made in the USA" machine tool company. Whether your machine was brand new, or one from the '90s, you knew you could get the machine fixed rapidly if it went down.

    This has changed over the last decade. Newer machines were released with somewhat buggy software, and not always updated in a timely manner. But even more concerning, critical parts of the control system for older machines have been declared "obsolete" by Haas, and in some situations your machine can only be repaired by a systematic replacement of the electronics and control elements, at a cost in 2018 approaching $20,000 USD. This is much more than even 2017, when it was less than half that.

    Now, Haas is an independent company, and they can price things as they see fit. But they must also factor in consumer (that's us) reaction to their policies. As business owners, a company that tells us "tough luck" when we ask why older control boards aren't available may not be one we want to deal with. And if we work for a larger company as skilled machinists, we have to explain to management why their expensive labor and machinery isn't producing.

    It comes to this: Does Haas want our business? Do we want to be subject to arbitrary decisions regarding "end of life" electronic components? And make no mistake, there's no such thing as an "unavailable" processor or chip, as there's specialty "foundries" that will make fresh silicon at reasonable cost. And instruction sets don't "vanish", they're either archived at the factory or still present in older, functioning boards.

    As grumbling individuals, we're reduced to either paying up, or abandoning our investments and getting newer machines. From other vendors, because why would we buy from a company that's damaged us?

    But there's thousands of Haas machines represented on Practical Machinist. How many? Well, let's find out! Are you willing to add your name to a polite statement to Haas CNC that requests they re-think their policy on support for older machines? If you own newer versions you should sign too, as this could be your fate in the future.

    Give your thoughts on this thread, and we should be able to hone a well executed statement to Haas. Once we have that, we can present it to Haas management. Their response will determine whether they truly value us as customers and as partners in manufacturing, or whether we're just as disposable as their older machines.
    We have Okuma’s going back to 1988. Still can get control parts/rebuilt boards. Price is not cheap but it’s also not crazy like something from DMG

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    I am in. I have three machines affected by this situation. An 04' 05' and 07'. Can provide email, phone#, and serial#'s if needed.

    When I bought my 07' I finagled the serial# from the salesman (who absolutely did not want to give it to me! for fear I would buy it out from under him).
    I explained to him that I wanted to confirm that the machine was Coldfire-II. It had an analog spindle meter. That was a huge red-flag.
    The salesman tried to reassure me they already checked, and that it was indeed Coldfire-II.
    I finally just told him: "either you give me the number so I can check for myself, or I'm not buying it".
    He did. I called HAAS. They confirmed "Yes, that machine is Coldfire-II". I now soo wish I had that conversation recorded!
    And, I learned a hard lesson that day about getting shit in writing!
    Because that damn thing is absolutely NOT Coldfire-II. Confirmed by a HAAS tech.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I am in. I have three machines affected by this situation. Can provide email, phone#, and serial#'s if needed.
    Cool! But right now we need numbers and exposure for this thread. We won' get anywhere with Haas if only 5-10 people chime in here, we need a hundred at least, ideally more.

    Any time you can reasonably point to this thread, or whatever succeeds it when the message is fully crafted will help.

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    I have a couple 2015/2016 mills that have been ok machine but I do own a 2001 SL-10 that falls under the no support on there computer boards ... bottom line is when we buy a machine from a dealer were in a way going into business with that dealer,,, We need support from them just like are customers need are support. It just makes for good business to support the ones that support you . Bottom line is why would I support Haas and buy there products if there not going to be there when I need them ...

    As a American I`m all for supporting "MADE IN AMERICA" products but its a two way street and Haas needs to act like a "MADE IN AMERICA" company

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    As a American I`m all for supporting "MADE IN AMERICA" products but its a two way street and Haas needs to act like a "MADE IN AMERICA" company
    Damn straight!

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    FWIW. I have a '93 VF2. It's long in the tooth but it still makes parts and I run it regularly.

    This year I bought a newer, 40" mill so when the Haas goes down, I know can keep making parts. One by one, I am moving the jobs to the new machine.

    I will keep the old VF2 for now- it's worth more to me as a backup than what I will get for it if I sell it. With the lack of support from Haas, it's worth more in parts than it is as a running machine.

    The reason I did NOT buy another Haas was due to the lack of support. That's also why I will NOT buy a Haas when I get ready to buy another lathe.

    I know I can get support from Fanuc for as long as the machine is in service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jancollc View Post

    I know I can get support from Fanuc for as long as the machine is in service.
    And here we have more proof that Haas is making a very fundamental mistake. By damaging their relationship with established customers, they're losing proven sales opportunities. What well-run company wants to do that??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    And here we have more proof that Haas is making a very fundamental mistake. By damaging their relationship with established customers, they're losing proven sales opportunities. What well-run company wants to do that??
    Gene is even older than us. Is he making company decisions now or just playing at race car team owner ? Would sending your comments directly to The Man have more effect ? This is the opposite of what his whole life's work has been.

    I'd ask Stewart to hand him a stack of complaints. Hit him where it hurts, in the ego, from someone he admires

    This whole fiasco seems more like "turning the company over to a bean counter" than a decision by Mr Haas Himself.

    I hope

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    I have no specific insights into Gene Haas's methods, but looking at his history one can guess that's he's both aggressive (it takes balls to create of company of this size), and willing to take risks (like the "creative" tax returns when trying to "get back" (allegedly) at the Hurco decision).

    I doubt Gene doesn't know about this policy of sunsetting older machines. Whether it came from him I couldn't say.

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    I have a couple older Haas machines. Can provide serials, email, phone, etc.

    I too will draw attention to the thread when I can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CGornet View Post
    I have a couple older Haas machines. Can provide serials, email, phone, etc.

    I too will draw attention to the thread when I can.
    Thanks! It's a little quieter than I'd hoped, we need hordes of hopping-mad owners to get anywhere!

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    I'm not hopping mad yet as my affected machine is running fine right now. Some consider Haas to build throw away machines, and this isn't helping them any. Resell value on a Haas was a good reason to consider them. My machine is in excellent condition, well maintained, makes accurate parts, but it now has much lower resell value. I am stuck with keeping it or selling for a lot less than I could have a couple of years ago. By doubling the price of the upgrade since last year, I won't consider doing it. When it comes time to replace it, I will be much more reluctant to put another Haas in the empty space.

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    Happy to join the list! Kudo's for Milland for poking the bear here. 98 VF/4. Can send along SN's. I was recently affected with a processor board failure and no real option to repair except for this $14K uplift program (just recently raised like a bad Pharma CEO from $5/6K). Did the thread here on PM to try to repair mine, which did work! (very lucky)

    So, As a Dad and Son just trying to learn and make him a future ( CNC our hobby for some time), I picked Haas as there was a HUGE resale market, everyone noted Haas would support us, and parts are readily available. The HFO has been really good w/ parts. NEver used service as I cannot afford that. I do my own till I cannot for now.

    There must be a Haas agenda to the situation and a planned progression path (WITH transparency) from Haas at some point I assume? Hoping to hear some buzz at IMTS about what's up w/ Haas and old machine depreciation/line killing etc. I figure someone did some type of analysis on the used market impact to their bottom line I would think?
    ref:
    Haas hadrecord 2017 sales and we all know the tag line; "greed is good" and who said that. (80's flick to watch then if new to ya).
    Haas Automation Reports Record Sales in 217 - Advanced Manufacturing


    Peace and we'll see where this goes and what we learn...
    Last edited by countryguy; 07-19-2018 at 01:25 AM.

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    I suggest a Facebook group with this dedication to change.

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    '96 VF0E. Ser# on request.

    Long history of Haas lying, financial raping, and attempted financial rape. My own tale of installing probing on the machine is right here on this forum, and others. Haas said it was not possible, unless the control was upgraded. The did not say it could be done with some work and accommodations. They said it was impossible. Of course, if we spent $15,000.00 USD, they would upgrade the control and then sell us a probing package. We installed probing and tool setting ourselves and have never looked back.

    Haas tech inspected machine and provided paperwork stating condition and tolerances. All were exposed as outright lies and fraudulent. Have the physical paper, still.

    Wanted to make a stand alone 5C indexer work with the control. Indexer is Haas brand. Sold us a $100 cable, instructed changes within the control to affect the ability. Got the cable. Indexer never worked. Took them more than THREE MONTHS to advise that it was not possible unless we spent an additional $4,500.00 to purchase another servo motor, encoder, and whole other cable to make it work. As in, despite the advertisements and their own assurances, a different indexer would be required. Right.

    Our latest experience is also documented on the forum and is another great example of their disregard and predation of their customer base. Solenoid valves arbitrarily labelled "obsolete" so they can justify charging $275.00 for something available at $35.00 on the open market.

    There are more experiences. Most all of them showing the same predatory conduct and attitude.

    Regular forum members know that I typically remain composed as to not freely post obscenities. It's not the type of impression that I feel should follow a business. Having said as much, I will freely say that given the way that Haas has seen fit to conduct themselves, the best you'll get from me is " F*&k Haas ".

    We are actively evaluating machinery right now, with 4 MTBs. And Haas has firmly excluded themselves from any consideration given the way they've conducted themselves up until now. I would be willing to change my mind if they changed their policies. But I don't see that ever happening. Maybe I'll be surprised. I sure hope they can turn it around.

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