Haas owners Unite! Creating a statement to get better support for older Haas machines - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    I would find a HFO that has very good relations with the mother ship. Their feedback would be invaluable, if their willing to talk about this upgrade situation.

    They might say it's been a disaster, their loosing customers as a result, they've remonstrated with the factory etc etc and are very upset.
    Or
    They might say they don't care, maybe they've lost a few customers, dealing with the upgrade is a pita, and their selling enough machines that if some customers defect to another brand it doesn't matter.


    Either way the factory has made a calculation that increasing the price of the upgrade isn't going to hurt them. Apparently they read Pm and cncz, so they read the reactions to this debacle and the policy remains. They may have done a count of the different usernames on the 2 sites and compared it to the number of known individual customers and found the number of (legitimate) complainers on PM and cncz is but a very small fraction of the userbase, and as a result may have a negligible effect on their bottom line if they defect to a different brand.

    Contact a F1 blogger/F1 magazine, run the story by them, it may pique their interest. Some bad publicity might help. Go to your local consumer affairs reporter at a local News TV station. Get the hottest employee you have to represent you infront of the camera when their explaining how Haas is holding your business hostage with the exorbitant cost of the upgrade.

    Or wait for the US round of the F1 race next year. Find somebody local who has a dead Haas and is willing to donate to the cause. Invite all the F1 press along to an event where you cut up a Haas with a torch, or hire a crane and drop it onto concrete from 50'. Or truck it to the Reno airraces and get the Skycrain helicopter to drop it from a few 1000', if they still do that stunt. The youtube/instagram/twitter coverage would be quite impressive.

    I'm not going say why this is why I use fadals and fanuc controlled machines.

  2. #42
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    I would think the GSK or LNC (taiwanese) controls could be offered in a plug and play package where someone clever works out and supplies the control, plus cables, brackets etc so that you could pull out the Haas control, leave the drives and substitute for the Asian control.

    But are there enough retrofits that justify the time and trouble to develop this? I would think so, but what happens if Haas decides to sue the person/persons/company who are thinking of doing this. Haas may not have a legal leg to stand on, but I assume they have inhouse attorneys and would be able to sue, and by the time its settled in the defendants favour their bankrupt.

  3. #43
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    I'm hoping to start this as "nice-nice", rather than going in guns blazing (metaphorically). This thread's going a little slower than I'd hoped (given that some silly threads explode), but I still think there's enough of us here that if we present a large number of names or just machines represented that they'll reconsider how they're handling repairs.

    As to making a PnP replacement control, that's certainly possible, and given that there may be relevant "Right of Repair" laws in place, if something doesn't copy Haas's syntax but gives exactly the same result then I'm not sure where they'd have a legal leg to stand on.

    What could happen, is the new control company would have to worry about liability due to things like door interlocks that have been bypassed or just failed, or similar. On my machines I always use the override command for the doors, but my understanding is that the next time a real Haas service tech was up here, they'd try installing a new command update that kills that option.

    So how the new controls would deal with this is a question. Frankly, I'd rather keep OEM Haas operations as-is on my machines, they're familiar and work well enough for my purposes. If/when the time comes that more robust processes are in play, well, an Okuma M560 sounds nice...
    Last edited by Milland; 07-19-2018 at 02:02 AM. Reason: typo

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  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    What could happen, is the new control company would have to worry about liability due to things like door interlocks that have been bypassed or just failed, or similar. On my machines I always use the override command for the doors, but my understanding is that the next time a real Haas service tech was up here, they'd try installing a new command update that kills that option.
    I'm not uptodate on this so scuse me if I blow it but ... my understanding is they claim they can't get parts. Why not just make new replacement boards that are exactly the same ? The "can't get parts" thing is blatant b.s. I've known of a few places that did that for older controls - usually core memory replacement boards - would that not solve the problem ?

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post

    As to making a PnP replacement control, that's certainly possible, and given that there may be relevant "Right of Repair" laws in place, if something doesn't copy Haas's syntax but gives exactly the same result then I'm not sure where they'd have a legal leg to stand on.
    If Haas sues, you have to defend yourself, even if they don't have a leg to stand on. By the time it's finished any PnP could well be bankrupt, plus it will be very time consuming. They have very deep pockets, and for sure the will to litigate for ever.

  7. #46
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    A new control would have to meet all current safety regulations. Maybe that is why Haas is trying to get out of the control replacement business. As far as a Chinese control retrofit, it will be totally different than your other Haas machines-have to retrain everyone and no one will want to run it, and how long will the Chinese support their control?

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    HAAS VF-Series VMC Retrofit - YouTube

    I am sure this is expensive, but it saves a lot of time. If you wanted to do this retrofit yourself, you could do it for under $5000 in parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    HAAS VF-Series VMC Retrofit - YouTube

    I am sure this is expensive, but it saves a lot of time. If you wanted to do this retrofit yourself, you could do it for under $5000 in parts.
    Well, I want to shoot whoever pumped the bass up on that video, but it was interesting to see a full replacement option. I'm not sure the electronics we saw was only $5K, but if it is that's a bargain (as long as the machine works correctly when done). It seems it includes probing, not sure about a fourth axis (almost certainly not).

    When I have time I'll dig into this further. Would still prefer a Haas solution (that's not $20K), but it's nice to have options.

  10. #49
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    Probing would be $1790 with the probe, 4th axis is $620 for the drive, the software option is free.
    You wouldn't need everything that was in the video, there are ways to keep the cost down. But it would be time consuming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    HAAS VF-Series VMC Retrofit - YouTube

    I am sure this is expensive, but it saves a lot of time. If you wanted to do this retrofit yourself, you could do it for under $5000 in parts.

    DIY--- I am not a hobby shop. I bought Haas so I can call and have machine up in running in short time IF one went down. I am all about that Haas Van pulling up with 99% of parts needed inside and a trained tech to get me up and running. That is IF the Tech I speak with from my HFO cannot walk me through a fix myself.

    I had a Centroid Retrofit, was my 1st CNC. Nice, good, ran well...but when it didn't Centroid was not the easiest of places to get answers and parts. Sure as hell they never came down the next day with parts to get me up and running.

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  13. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    DIY--- I am not a hobby shop. I bought Haas so I can call and have machine up in running in short time IF one went down. I am all about that Haas Van pulling up with 99% of parts needed inside and a trained tech to get me up and running. That is IF the Tech I speak with from my HFO cannot walk me through a fix myself.

    I had a Centroid Retrofit, was my 1st CNC. Nice, good, ran well...but when it didn't Centroid was not the easiest of places to get answers and parts. Sure as hell they never came down the next day with parts to get me up and running.
    I agree 100%. If you are a busy production shop, go out and buy the latest offering from Okuma, Bridgeport, ect. I have seen some in the sub $100000 price range that will run circles around a Haas. If you are running 2 shifts 6 days a week you cannot afford to have a slow obsolete machine. However, if you only run the machine 400 hours a year and can't afford a new machine or the $15000+ for the Haas update this is another option.

    Haas vs Makino - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by converterking View Post
    I agree 100%. If you are a busy production shop, go out and buy the latest offering from Okuma, Bridgeport, ect. I have seen some in the sub $100000 price range that will run circles around a Haas.

    Haas vs Makino - YouTube

    This post is to stop the Sun-Setting by Haas on their older machines.

    I do not need a Makino to spot and drill 1/16" holes or face parts to size with a light chamfer... AN older Haas does this very well...load a few parts on fixture plate, Load fixture, push green, come back in few minutes, swap fixtures, Press green and go.

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    We had a guy swap out a main processor board on our Coldfire UMC 750 a week or two ago saying that the old chips aren't available anymore.

    These things DO happen to obsolete electronics throughout our lives. You know no one makes floppy disks anymore?

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    Quote Originally Posted by coyoinu View Post
    We had a guy swap out a main processor board on our Coldfire UMC 750 a week or two ago saying that the old chips aren't available anymore.

    These things DO happen to obsolete electronics throughout our lives. You know no one makes floppy disks anymore?
    Imagine if it were your 2007 Mercedes that cost you $80K. It is in excellent condition, low miles, and always meticulously maintained. One day it won't start, so you have the dealer look at it. The ECU is bad. They tell you the ECU isn't available, suck it up and buy an entire new engine and transmission with an available ECU for 20k. This is where these guys are coming from. Would you buy another Mercedes to replace it or look elsewhere?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pmack View Post
    Imagine if it were your 2007 Mercedes that cost you $80K. It is in excellent condition, low miles, and always meticulously maintained. One day it won't start, so you have the dealer look at it. The ECU is bad. They tell you the ECU isn't available, suck it up and buy an entire new engine and transmission with an available ECU for 20k. This is where these guys are coming from. Would you buy another Mercedes to replace it or look elsewhere?
    Um, yeah, isn't that how it works? The 10 year old Mercedes that originally cost 80K is now worth 18K, and when your turbo randomly blows up, replacing critical parts is expensive if not impossible?

    Are you seriously comparing Haas to Mercedes? I like to think of 'em more like Hondas. Cheap, lightweight, and most people know how they work. Plus, most people don't treat their machines daintily, Haas or otherwise, they have the things running as hard as they can to make money.

    I've got a 30 year old Toyota it's getting hard to find parts for, damn near impossible to get a fuel level sender for a '90 Cressida, factory doesn't make them anymore. That's just the reality of my situation, I'm not sure what dreamland you're living in.

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    I only used that as an example as it is similar money-wise, but in your dreamland it can be an 80k Honda.

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    Several proposals have surfaced, but if Haas is serious about replacement parts and their associated costs to Haas, then they could license the design to a third party and take a percentage. Haas would keep their good name, make a little money, and do what they do well. The third party would bear the costs of making and repairing the old control. Everybody is happy?

    Tom
    Last edited by TDegenhart; 07-19-2018 at 08:26 PM.

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  22. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by coyoinu View Post
    We had a guy swap out a main processor board on our Coldfire UMC 750 a week or two ago saying that the old chips aren't available anymore.

    These things DO happen to obsolete electronics throughout our lives. You know no one makes floppy disks anymore?
    They're only unavailable because Haas wishes it so. As mentioned before, there are specialty chip foundries that will make anything you want in small runs: Foundry Solutions Just one, there's lots more.

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    I can still get parts and hardware for our late 1980’s YCM Supermax’s so haas’s arguement is moot. This is clearly a move to make more money. I don’t own a haas and certainly never will given this new information. Thought I should chime in on this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coyoinu View Post
    These things DO happen to obsolete electronics throughout our lives. You know no one makes floppy disks anymore?
    You are incorrect sir. They still make floppy disks and in fact the United States government still uses them.


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