New VF-3 putting wrong tools in the spindle?!

Steelphil · Jan 30, 2014

We have a 2013 Haas VF3 SS that just did something very scary today.

I was cutting some soft jaws, I ran the program and everything looked fine, both tools came out in correct order and everything worked as it should. Once it finished I took a look at the jaws, comped the first tool T13 (.500 Endmill) a few tenths, pressed cycle start and went off to my other machine.. I guess I made a mistake and trusted the machine to pull the correct tool out, because when I came back a minute later I noticed that it had a completely different tool in the spindle, running along the same toolpath.. Immediately I thought, crap, I must have somehow pulled up the wrong program.. however looking closer, it was the same program, same tool offset, the machine still had T13 listed as the tool in the spindle.. nothing had changed except for the tool in the spindle was now what used to be T16 (which is completely dissociated to the program I was running, it doesn't use it)..

So I reset, and go looking for my .500 endmill.. and I found it is now T20, which has always been my chamfer mill.. the chamfer mill is now considered T16..
Three tools got physically changed around in the machine.
The tool that was T13 became T20
The tool that was T20 became T16
And T16 became T13..

This would make sense if there was a bad encoder that skipped or double counted the carousel pockets as they went by..however because this is a side arm changer with a 2 tool program, it should have just actuated a toolchange when I pressed cycle start, not involving the carousel at all.

I have talked with our HFO and they told me there are 2 sensors involved with the carousel. one sensor that finds Pocket 1, allowing the carousel to home itself, and one sensor to count pockets as it rotates to keep track of the current active pocket, if one of these goes bad it can double count or other scary issues allowing for wrong tools to end up in your spindle. However because the machine threw a 3rd tool into the mix this becomes and issue they have never heard about before, which may be control related.

Has anyone else experienced anything similar?? To me this seems completely unacceptable, I run this machine unattended a lot and if it decided to do something like drill with a shell mill unexpectedly.. instead of alarm out, it could be very costly.

Thanks!

tc1999 · Jan 31, 2014

Steelphil said:
Has anyone else experienced anything similar??

Nope. 2006 VF3SS that I run unattended all the time. I would send it back or get some type of written insurance policy from your dealer.

My first question is how you did the "re-start" or something with your program - not trying to say it was your fault - but normally these machines do exactly what you tell them to do...

Atomkinder · Jan 31, 2014

Steelphil said:
...if it decided to do something like drill with a shell mill unexpectedly.. instead of alarm out...

Oh it'll alarm out alright... :hitsthefan:

david n · Jan 31, 2014

Atomkinder said:
Oh it'll alarm out alright...

Yup. That's what servo overload alarms are for.

I'd get Haas to fix it for free and guarantee it won't happen a again. If your local HFO won't help much, go to the horse's mouth. The boys in Cali will be all over it.

upnorth5axis · Jan 31, 2014

I would try to re-do your steps. it is rare even for Haas to do something like that.

Steelphil · Jan 31, 2014

tc1999 said:
Nope. 2006 VF3SS that I run unattended all the time. I would send it back or get some type of written insurance policy from your dealer.

My first question is how you did the "re-start" or something with your program - not trying to say it was your fault - but normally these machines do exactly what you tell them to do...

I just pressed "cycle start" immediately after putting in the new offsets and going into the memory page. The correct program was loaded and the correct toolpaths were running.. except the machine had put a different tool (what was T16) in the spindle and decided to call it T13. I went through and there is no way that I can think of to even tell the machine to reassign tool numbers. Rerunning a program is something I've done a thousand times with a haas.

Steelphil · Jan 31, 2014

david n said:
Yup. That's what servo overload alarms are for.

I'd get Haas to fix it for free and guarantee it won't happen a again. If your local HFO won't help much, go to the horse's mouth. The boys in Cali will be all over it.

I spose it would alarm out.. I wonder how much damage It would do before that though.

Anyways, I actually called our HFO yesterday morning at 8, had a guy in here looking at it by 10. He had never seen anything like it before either. He ended up calling down to Haas in California, and guess what, they'd never heard of this before either! They sent off all my parameters, program and offsets to an application engineer. According to him everything looked okay and there was no reason for the machine to have indexed the carousel or switched tool numbers.

I don't know how to guarantee it wont happen again, I got a software update and everything seems to be running fine now, but I had almost 5000 programs ran no problem before and then it just happened once and wont recreate the issue.
I did ask who's gonna foot the bill if it does this on it's own after a program has been proven. The Haas tech told me the machine is constantly logging keystrokes in a diagnostics menu, so if there is damage he could come in evaluate if it was the machine acting up, although once the machine is out of warranty in May, who knows..

tc1999 · Jan 31, 2014

Steelphil said:
I just pressed "cycle start" immediately after putting in the new offsets and going into the memory page. The correct program was loaded and the correct toolpaths were running.. except the machine had put a different tool (what was T16) in the spindle and decided to call it T13. I went through and there is no way that I can think of to even tell the machine to reassign tool numbers. Rerunning a program is something I've done a thousand times with a haas.

Like I said...wasn't blaming you...but have fun running her unattended from now on! :eek:

That machine would be as good as useless for me at this point.

machineit2 · Jan 31, 2014

It is just one of those time where you have to depend to the Haas service dept to help you out. It is a remote possibility that you did something wrong too, so you just have to suck it up, put the nut cup on and push that button. Good thing is that you are under warranty and have support. That is better than most of us.

Mike

BGL · Jan 31, 2014

Trouble shooting is a process of elimination of impossibilities.

"The Haas tech told me the machine is constantly logging keystrokes in a diagnostics menu,"

Ok then, download it and look for the time you made changes and see if possibly you did make an error

And just curious, is this a side mount tool changer? Is if possible you or someone else made a tool swap that got the tools out of order..
Just throwing it out there, been there done that, my favorite button, the candy red FEED HOLD.

Steelphil · Jan 31, 2014

BGL said:
Trouble shooting is a process of elimination of impossibilities.

"The Haas tech told me the machine is constantly logging keystrokes in a diagnostics menu,"

Ok then, download it and look for the time you made changes and see if possibly you did make an error

And just curious, is this a side mount tool changer? Is if possible you or someone else made a tool swap that got the tools out of order..
Just throwing it out there, been there done that, my favorite button, the candy red FEED HOLD.

Unfortunately that menu is locked out from all customers.

It is a side mount, and I am a 1 man shop, I walked 10 feet to my other machine and back so the only two things to blame are me and the machine.

Ludasmith · Jan 31, 2014

Our Okuma at work occasionally won't get the turret back fast enough before a boring bar swipes across the face of the part. Tech came out Wednesday and adjusted something but I've been flinching every single time a tool approaches still.

Let us know how long it takes to get rid of the abused wife syndrome. LOL

YdnaD · Jan 31, 2014

Steelphil said:
Unfortunately that menu is locked out from all customers.

You can get to it if you reallllly want, but it's inside the debug mode for diagnostic purposes. gotta be careful playing around in there.
Now what would be nice is a way to download it. that might be the thing outside of our ability...

Hdpg · Feb 1, 2014

Two questions:

1; Are you sure you were at the top of the program when you pushed Cycle Start?

2; Is Setting 36 PROGRAM RESTART ON.

If Program Restart is OFF and you press Cycle Start when the cursor is somewhere down in the program not at the start I have found funny, and alarming, things can happen.

wenteq · Feb 1, 2014

We had the exact same thing happen on our ec400 horizontal. I thought I did something wrong. It renumbered 3 tools and swapped them for each other. 2 of the tools were not even used in the program and were on the opposite sides of the turret. I fixed it and it did it again shortly later. I know that I did not renumber 3 tools. I turned off the machine, deleted the program and reloaded it. It has yet do it again. Although about 1 month later, the vector drive died.

SeymourDumore · Feb 2, 2014

Yupp to all that Hdpg said above.

Spent 20+ years in field service, have 16+ years of running my own shop ....
Between customers, employees and most of all myself, I would seriously retrace my steps and try to duplicate the issue.

From experience I will say this.
If you can replicate the problem, then it's up to Haas or the HFO to resolve.
If you can't, then you have screwed up somewhere.

If it is the latter, then suck it up and let everything run as it was before.

For what it's worth, my experience is t the Haas control is more reliable and bulletproof than Fanuc and Mitsubishi.

amdinc · Feb 2, 2014

SeymourDumore said:
Yupp to all that Hdpg said above.

Spent 20+ years in field service, have 16+ years of running my own shop ....
Between customers, employees and most of all myself, I would seriously retrace my steps and try to duplicate the issue.

From experience I will say this.
If you can replicate the problem, then it's up to Haas or the HFO to resolve.
If you can't, then you have screwed up somewhere.

If it is the latter, then suck it up and let everything run as it was before.

For what it's worth, my experience is t the Haas control is more reliable and bulletproof than Fanuc and Mitsubishi.

Bullet proof yes, Idiot proof no. And at one time or another we all assume the role. :willy_nilly:

John

haastec · Feb 3, 2014

amdinc said:
Bullet proof yes, Idiot proof no. And at one time or another we all assume the role.

John

Just when you think you have it idiot proof, along comes some idiot that proves you wrong!

MrBlackCat · Feb 16, 2014

Just for the record, at my current day job I am a Haas Operator. (VF4) This machine never stops during the shift it is used on and to my knowledge, with its nearly full Carousel, it has never once "failed" to do exactly what it was told. The only issues I have ever experienced were electro-mechanical caused by chips in a micro-switch on the table clamp or pallet changer. The couple of broken inserts and bits or bent reamers that were experienced were fixture failure or definitely operator error. (myself) I can not imagine the feeling of needing to babysit the Haas... it runs mostly unattended. Actually I have never turned it off during a break or lunch if it is in operation.

Reading this is interesting as the other two Haas operators I know also have never experienced any anomaly of operation, and one of those has been using them for 15 years.

Please be operator error! Hehehe... (just kidding)

If you are able to duplicate this some how or realize some cause and resolution, please report back.

MrBlackCat

clutsch · Jul 8, 2019

EC-500 Mill wrong tools being called up

Steelphil said:
We have a 2013 Haas VF3 SS that just did something very scary today.

I was cutting some soft jaws, I ran the program and everything looked fine, both tools came out in correct order and everything worked as it should. Once it finished I took a look at the jaws, comped the first tool T13 (.500 Endmill) a few tenths, pressed cycle start and went off to my other machine.. I guess I made a mistake and trusted the machine to pull the correct tool out, because when I came back a minute later I noticed that it had a completely different tool in the spindle, running along the same toolpath.. Immediately I thought, crap, I must have somehow pulled up the wrong program.. however looking closer, it was the same program, same tool offset, the machine still had T13 listed as the tool in the spindle.. nothing had changed except for the tool in the spindle was now what used to be T16 (which is completely dissociated to the program I was running, it doesn't use it)..

So I reset, and go looking for my .500 endmill.. and I found it is now T20, which has always been my chamfer mill.. the chamfer mill is now considered T16..
Three tools got physically changed around in the machine.
The tool that was T13 became T20
The tool that was T20 became T16
And T16 became T13..

This would make sense if there was a bad encoder that skipped or double counted the carousel pockets as they went by..however because this is a side arm changer with a 2 tool program, it should have just actuated a toolchange when I pressed cycle start, not involving the carousel at all.

I have talked with our HFO and they told me there are 2 sensors involved with the carousel. one sensor that finds Pocket 1, allowing the carousel to home itself, and one sensor to count pockets as it rotates to keep track of the current active pocket, if one of these goes bad it can double count or other scary issues allowing for wrong tools to end up in your spindle. However because the machine threw a 3rd tool into the mix this becomes and issue they have never heard about before, which may be control related.

Has anyone else experienced anything similar?? To me this seems completely unacceptable, I run this machine unattended a lot and if it decided to do something like drill with a shell mill unexpectedly.. instead of alarm out, it could be very costly.

Thanks!

I had the exact same thing happen on our EC-500 Mill. It renumbered 7 of 12 tools being used. Only the first 7 tools though. This has done this a few times already. I have to call the tools up one by one, remove tool, find what pocket it as been reassigned by the machine and put it there. Once I did that with all tools I could run the program again. This is a scary way to run a machine.

New VF-3 putting wrong tools in the spindle?!

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