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  1. #21
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    I would agree for the most part and for the first 6 months i gave Haas the opportunity to make this right. Fix the issue, give me a new lathe, or refund me. I would also agree that some other machine tool mfg would have not been as willing to spend all the time and $ trying to fix my issue.( They prob also wouldn't have shipped me a machine that couldn't bore a hole) If it was your time $ I am betting that at this point you would expect Haas to take back their Lathe and give you your money back so that you could go buy a machine tool that you can actually make money with. I bet Gene Haas would want his money back or another replacement machine if he had a machine at the Haas plant at Oxnard that couldn't preform to its standards and was holding up his production. I am a realist being in mfg for so long i get that machines don't always run flawlessly and from my experience with any machine tool brand new or used they always have corks that need worked out. For someone to say "sometimes stuff happens" "Dont blame Haas" "I should be happy with there support".. that is where I disagree. You give me 80k dollars of your money for a tool that you cant make money with...Then will see where you stand.

  2. #22
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    All You said is true.
    YET...
    You got a bad deal, no fault of HAAS.
    They have done their best, no fault of HAAS.
    I understand Your frustration.
    Fully.

    But in general, it often takes 3-6-10 months to get a new machine, here in the world.
    I myself had 3 of (my) 130k$ routers that don´t perform (Cisco 7513 w. BGP4 via OC-3, 2 of, iirc).
    Cisco could not care less.
    I changed a 5M£ network, to a new one, when Alcatel could not care less.
    Got a 1.5M£ retroactive discount vs a court case, for my client.

    You got, imo, great support with a bad situation.
    Another MT maker, mostly, would not have fixed it. Imo.
    I think I understand You are miffed - reasonably.

    But did they do it intentionally ? No.
    Did they leave out parts/bits/undersized toolholders ? No.
    Was it a complex problem - yes.
    I am not in the game, now.
    I have zero skin, now.
    I used to be a sales manager for Haas, in Spain. Biggish.

    In my experience, they will want to make it right.
    I/we fixed several issues left by other distributors, at our cost.
    Zero cost to customer.
    Every Single Customer was very happy after I fixed their stuff.

    Many became great references, and we sent lots of prospects there.
    I understand Your frustration.
    Perfectly normal.
    Do You honestly think they did this on purpose against You ?

    I have dealt with, mostly, similar or more expensive equipment, that works much worse, ie high dollar IT stuff, for 15+ years, until I got out 12 years ago.

    There are very much worse stories, from many very much "higher end" and more expensive brands, in machine tools and in other stuff. I can´t tell You their stories, not ethical.

    I am not saying it is great.
    I am pointing out, that I think You got the best possible result humanly possible, fairly easily.
    Try waiting 12 weeks for a spindle (real story, not unusual).

    Quote Originally Posted by Allin View Post
    I would agree for the most part and for the first 6 months i gave Haas the opportunity to make this right. Fix the issue, give me a new lathe, or refund me. I would also agree that some other machine tool mfg would have not been as willing to spend all the time and $ trying to fix my issue.( They prob also wouldn't have shipped me a machine that couldn't bore a hole) If it was your time $ I am betting that at this point you would expect Haas to take back their Lathe and give you your money back so that you could go buy a machine tool that you can actually make money with. I bet Gene Haas would want his money back or another replacement machine if he had a machine at the Haas plant at Oxnard that couldn't preform to its standards and was holding up his production. I am a realist being in mfg for so long i get that machines don't always run flawlessly and from my experience with any machine tool brand new or used they always have corks that need worked out. For someone to say "sometimes stuff happens" "Dont blame Haas" "I should be happy with there support".. that is where I disagree. You give me 80k dollars of your money for a tool that you cant make money with...Then will see where you stand.

  3. #23
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    I didn't read all of the post so if I say something redundant...

    Ran an 1999 Haas SL30 for many years. All and all, for the price point of the machine, it paid for itself many times over. Very few machincal issues that were not caused by operator error...(me)

    We bought a brand new 2012 ST-30
    Right off the bat I was pissed because even though it was a 30, it had 6" less usable Z length. Forget actual number but that's damn close.

    In the SL I used to run stuffing boxes all the time, 1.5" DNMG bar hung out 5 something inches, no problem.

    Got the new ST in, ran same job, same tooling, same program...the ST wouldn't have it. Chattered its ass off.

    Fix...
    Put strips of electric tape under the tool holder and used the M code that makes the spindle raise/lower RPM while cutting to break up the harmonics. (forget the M code,been over a year now) M38 for on M39 off?
    That's what it took to make the ST do the same job the 13 year old machine did, sad but true.

    The pros of the ST, threading was a bitch on the SL, the ST threaded MUCH better.
    The ST would also turn much larger diameters than the SL did.
    The ST would also push drills/spades much harder as well. The SL alarmed out at over 40% Z load, the ST would go 100% Z load all day.

    Having both machines side by side worked for me, I knew what each machines strengths and weakness was and planned the jobs accordingly.

  4. #24
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    So unless I skimmed over some details..

    1) what size hole are you boring to and starting from?

    2) what did you drill hole with(if you did)

    3) what insert geometry do you have?

    4) how the f*$k are you getting WORSE results with a Carbide bar?

    PS- I have dealt with guys with to far of stick outs, wrong geometries, speeds/feed etc that had 30+ yrs experience. Anyone can learn more...

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    Unfortunately when your dealing with harmonics and high frequency chatter... Solid carbide is less for giving then bi-metal... I follow pretty standard rules 3x to 3.5x deep on bi- metal 5x deep on carbide. Trust me when I say I am a total nerd when it comes to tooling and trouble shooting. FYI I have been working with haas applications, iscar reps and Sandvik they are all pretty smart guys. I think we ruled out the tooling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessWaltz View Post
    So unless I skimmed over some details..


    PS- I have dealt with guys with to far of stick outs, wrong geometries, speeds/feed etc that had 30+ yrs experience. Anyone can learn more...
    What I quoted from you is absolutely correct. Worst thing a person can do is close his mind to new ideas.

    As far as the ST issue goes..
    As one who programmed and ran both the SL and the ST I can tell you with 100% certainty there is an issue with the ST models and their boring.
    As I said in post above, exact same job, tooling and program was night and day difference between the two models.
    Figured out a work around and made money with the machine, you would just think that a machine fresh out the box would perform just as well if not better than its 13 year old counterpart.

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    What is the wall thickness on the part? Have you tried the spindle speed variation feature to reduce harmonics? Try an insert with a smaller nose radius. Have you checked the cutting edge to centerline of the spindle? I run boring bars slightly above centerline to reduce chatter on manual lathes(when the bar is upright), it would be below center for a turning center with the bar upside down. If the wall thickness is thin, slow it down a little and play with the SSV. My ST-20 bores with no issues, hope you get it solved!

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    I hear you.. and i am definitely from the keep on grinding generation... a good machinist can make a good part from a pile of junk machine tool... however From a production environment standpoint it can be very difficult to make money with a machine that cannot run to the standard norm. I can make good parts with this lathe trust me when i say we haven't stop delivering our turning work to our customers.. the problem is we cant make as much $ with a lathe that we have to run at half the normal pace.... and unfortunately i do not think my customers are willing to pay twice as much for my turning parts. I guess i may have missed the boat with this forum. I wasnt looking for advise on how to turn parts with a bad lathe.(Although i do appreciate the tips tricks and feedback) I was looking for other people who had trouble boring with their st machines. Mostly because i think the answer Haas gave me is a bogus answer.. it was just the best they could come up with at the time to shut me up. If the toolholder blocks where indeed the issue i would think that there would be alot more people having trouble is what im getting at.

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    I would not say you missed the boat with this forum at all. It very solid/close group of guys for the most part. More then anything they don't know you and the low post count has them skeptical. Your talking to a bunch of grumpy crusty guys you know. Once your past that you will find the guys are super helpful and even caring. As for the last couple post, I don't think they took the time to read the thread. One thing I can recommend is to be as descriptive as you possibly be as there are few here who get off on busting your balls and others who want to post anything if there not giving enough info that they can use to help. That said I understand why you did not post the whole story in the fist place and think that if you were not brand new here most would not have taken the post the way they did. Don't cut the forum short as I think you would really like the guys here.

  10. #30
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    Now that you answered the issue you are having I can offer my findings.

    Yes, I have had a lousy experiences with the Haas Bolt on Boring Holders.
    Some holders you need to tweak a little higher, lower around that center boss to get them to stop squealing. Sometimes I think either the boring bars or the holders set screws where a tad off making tool tip sit outside the sweet spot. Other times I've had to use a larger holders then make snug fitting sleeves to get boring operations to stop squealing. A light press of the bar inside the sleeve and a good tap to fit sleeve inside blocks bore. I have made the sleeves a little longer to add some support on those longer bores. Sometimes I spit the sleeve to ease fitting boring bar. I have tried loctite to better secure bar, stop vibration...didn't think it worked great.

    Yes, I have taken the same tool with same stickout, same speeds, feeds, DOC on a manual lathe without a problem and bring over to lathe and have tool squeal. Choke up on bar, go larger with bar and have same issue till I sleeved the bar.

    I will also say some bars run without a problem in any tool block with only set screws...a little too high, too low too far out and the thing just cuts fine.

    Circle bars give me the best finish, hold up the best...but they Do Need to be Tweaked much more so then other brands.

    I have also found smaller bars like to sit in ER-32 collets inside tooling blocks. Since we started doing that sleeves are a thing of the past...most times.

    Biggest issue was on SL-20...but that was my first Haas lathe.
    But have had to tweak on SL-10's.
    The ST-10....either we learned from the older machines what to do or not to do as I don't recall having an issue.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allin View Post
    You guys are great.... So here is some info on my issues. I have high frequency chatter when boring most materials 4140 300 stainless titanium ect. normal speeds and feeds and D.O.C Ref. on stainless s700 f .012 d.o.c. .03 3/4 trigon bi-metal bar sticking out 2.5 i have also tried carbide bars with even worse results. I can get an okay finish if you baby it and by baby i mean slow and light.... So I have been working with Haas application at my local HFO and even California. We have ruled out tooling or programming error several times ( I think its so funny that you guys automatically assume that the person is machining wrong i guess that says a lot about whats out there... and how smart we are as "machinist")So after lots of replacement parts like a new spindle and new spindle drive and about 50-60 hrs of service yes 50+ hours of service!!! Haas has come back with this They said that they where able to duplicate the chatter on a brand new machine in California and the answer is... defective tool holder blocks for id tooling they said that by using both set screws to tighten bars it creates uneven tension o bar which causes the chatter. Which is why i cant figure out how more people are not having the same issues as me. They are working on replacement design for new blocks. I actually like the haas Brand!I have several Haas mills and started my shop with a "very first one machine" plastic machine serial # 1336 that is why its so disheartening to me to have to bash haas and go thru this. But i am trying to run a business i cannot afford to have a brand new machine on my floor that cannot produce parts efficiently. I ask Haas to take back the machine and at first they said they would if they couldn't fix the problem but now they are silent... Bottom line if you sold someone a product that couldn't preform you should take it back no bones about it. I am aware that Haas sells lots of machine tools and tons of Lathes and that sometimes their are duds among production... but am i the "customer" or not. I will prob. never buy another New Haas machine this has been a very exhausting experience that has cost me lots of time and $$. I was just trying to reach out and see if anyone else has had similar issues. Thanks!
    One other thing, we don't charge extra for using paragraphs. They make your posts much more readable and easier to understand. Please consider using them.

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  13. #32
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    I have a 2012 ST-10, I have had it since new.

    I have only had 3 issues with the lathe.

    1) the drain tube that runs from the spindle extension box to the conveyor area was way too long and instead of draining it would piss all the coolant on the floor. found that out bar pulling 4130 tube with through the tool coolant boring bars. Haas came and fixed it lathe was a month old.

    2)when the lathe showed up I unwrapped it and in the gray paint on top of the turret was a full down to metal Boot print. not a mechanical problem just real piss poor quality control. When you pay 60k for a brand new machine you would hope that the machine would look "new". (Haas didn't care at all)

    3) the tool blocks are not inline with the spindle at all with the ground pin in the turret, all of mine are out in a bag. you have to sweep them in every time and and by a lot. And the turret is dead nuts.

    other than that lathe has been fantastic finish wise no problems at all. I did push the turret out running an insert drill but after I re-aligned it and torqued it back down it hasn't moved again about 3 years ago now.

    Jason,
    Last edited by alliancefab; 01-17-2017 at 07:24 AM. Reason: Angry when I wrote some of this, toned it down a little

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    Quote Originally Posted by alliancefab View Post
    I have a 2012 ST-10, I have had it since new.

    I have only had 3 issues with the lathe.

    1) the drain tube that runs from the spindle extension box to the conveyor area was way too long and instead of draining it would piss all the coolant on the floor. found that out bar pulling 4130 tube with through the tool coolant boring bars. Haas came and fixed it lathe was a month old.

    2)when the lathe showed up I unwrapped it and in the gray paint on top of the turret was a full down to metal Boot print. not a mechanical problem just real piss poor quality control. When you pay 60k for a brand new machine you would hope that the machine would look "new". (Haas didn't care at all)

    3) the tool blocks are not inline with the spindle at all with the ground pin in the turret, all of mine are out in a bag. you have to sweep them in every time and and by a lot. And the turret is dead nuts.

    other than that lathe has been fantastic finish wise no problems at all. I did push the turret out running an insert drill but after I re-aligned it and torqued it back down it hasn't moved again about 3 years ago now.

    Jason,
    I like the honesty in the reason for editing comments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haastec View Post
    I like the honesty in the reason for editing comments.
    I wasn't even mad about the lathe, it was something else LoL

    Jason,

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    3) the tool blocks are not inline with the spindle at all with the ground pin in the turret, all of mine are out in a bag. you have to sweep them in every time and and by a lot. And the turret is dead nuts.


    Jason,[/QUOTE]



    Well that is a huge problem right there! WTF?

    Anyways I ran a similiarly priced competitor that was having problems with only one operation(chatter) that we could run same speeds, feeds, cutter, etc on a higher priced machine no problems. A simple task and not hard work. The Haas rep said it could be a casting flaw and one Haas lathe he was working on had to be returned because of a casting defect that would cause chatter problems and similar issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessWaltz View Post
    [B][I]

    Well that is a huge problem right there! WTF?

    Anyways I ran a similiarly priced competitor that was having problems with only one operation(chatter) that we could run same speeds, feeds, cutter, etc on a higher priced machine no problems. A simple task and not hard work. The Haas rep said it could be a casting flaw and one Haas lathe he was working on had to be returned because of a casting defect that would cause chatter problems and similar issues.
    I have 4 Haas Lathes...
    I rarely if ever sweep the tooling blocks. I found just push the block back to the turret and snug it up. Blocks have a step on the front edge that aligns the block...boss in center locate zero.

    As to listening to Haas rep saying it could be a casting defect...I have my doubts any rep is going to say that about his brand of machine. That is usually what "other" reps tell you about "other" machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SIM View Post
    I have 4 Haas Lathes...
    I rarely if ever sweep the tooling blocks. I found just push the block back to the turret and snug it up. Blocks have a step on the front edge that aligns the block...boss in center locate zero.

    As to listening to Haas rep saying it could be a casting defect...I have my doubts any rep is going to say that about his brand of machine. That is usually what "other" reps tell you about "other" machines.
    I figured as much about the casting thing, just seemed odd as a sales pitch admitting you have junk too lol.

    Confused with the tooling block, the other guy made it sound like if you attached it and swept it.....it would be way off?? . Yeah I sweep them to verify everything and then ..never touch them accept in a light bump or something.(shitty teach lathes mostly).

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    If I put the center boss back on the turret the hole will sweep between .004-.008 off center-line since new (They are parallel to the z axis the ledge on the block is good). My rep told me when he was an applications guy they took the boss out to sweep them in every time that they moved them.

    every other lathe I have ran has been close this one no. It could be a bad run of blocks and probably is the blocks. maybe I will pull one and put it on my cmm and see whats up.

    My turret it dead nuts to the machine within tenths, and I have owned this lathe since new and it has never had a hard hit ( I am the only person to ever run it). I pushed the turret out with an insert drill but thats it.

    Thats all I know and what I was told.

    Jason,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allin View Post
    I hear you.. and i am definitely from the keep on grinding generation... a good machinist can make a good part from a pile of junk machine tool... however From a production environment standpoint it can be very difficult to make money with a machine that cannot run to the standard norm. I can make good parts with this lathe trust me when i say we haven't stop delivering our turning work to our customers.. the problem is we cant make as much $ with a lathe that we have to run at half the normal pace.... and unfortunately i do not think my customers are willing to pay twice as much for my turning parts. I guess i may have missed the boat with this forum. I wasnt looking for advise on how to turn parts with a bad lathe.(Although i do appreciate the tips tricks and feedback) I was looking for other people who had trouble boring with their st machines. Mostly because i think the answer Haas gave me is a bogus answer.. it was just the best they could come up with at the time to shut me up. If the toolholder blocks where indeed the issue i would think that there would be alot more people having trouble is what im getting at.
    I still don't know what model you is running. Maybe a 30? I had a problem w/ a ST15 - the one with the big bore and small head. The machine was clamped on vibration damping pads - not good, bounced like crazy. Light clamp to the concrete and runs very well no problem.

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    Just incase it isn't known, those centering pins are on a cam. Loosen the screw in the middle and rotate to compensate misalignment on the tool block.

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