Haas Vf-2 on 100 Amp Panel, Phase Converter Recommendations
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    Question Haas Vf-2 on 100 Amp Panel, Phase Converter Recommendations

    Question with details below: Does anyone have any recommendations on a phase converter that runs off a 100amp box that is able to run a 56A 3 phase load (VF-2 CNC and future vibratory bowl tumbler)

    Been looking around the forums for the past few days to see what others are using to power their VF-2 units. The one thing I found is that everyone has a different power/phase converter setup which makes sense based on power in and what you are trying to run.

    We have a 100 amp service and currently have a 10,000 rpm VF-2 and in the future a vibratory bowl tumbler.

    Haas VF-2 CNC - 30HP 3-Phase, 50A 240V
    Royson 6 CTV IS Tumbler - 2.5 HP 3-Phase, 6.4A 240V

    I spoke with the good folks over at American Rotary with my 56.4A requirement and they have an AD-40 which meets the amp requirement but it requires 125amp, 25amp over what I have available. The highest HP they can provide on 100amp service is 15HP or 42A load with their AD-30 unit.

    I am looking for a cost-effective solution to run these two machines off a 100 amp service, have any recommendations?

    Thanks for the help!

    Cheers,
    Brian

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    I have a customer that runs a vf2ss on a 50 hp American rotary. but its has been border line if the air compressor comes on during a rom ramp up . or a rapid move, I have seen the machine fault out. I have a vf2ss at my shop and use a 75 hp phase converter. also American rotary. I run 2/0 wire to it and to the machine if I remember correctly I went 2 gauge. my machine seems to be a happy camper with the setup. a big thing that needs to be considered is my vf2ss uses more air than my vf1, and vf3, combined.

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    Thanks for the fast reply Hoss, do you recall if the 50 and 75hp phase converters are run off a 200 amp service? I feel like that is a major limiting factor for me.


    I also was speaking to North America Phase Converters and got some more helpful info:

    Single-phase amp requirement can be found by multiplying the load amps by 1.732. So in my case 56.4 x 1.732 = 97.7 amps required at the box for single-phase input. So, in this case, NA Phase Converters has a Pro-Line Rotary Phase Converter PL-50 for a cool $3.5k. It would get my machines running but would leave me little to no room for expansion down the road.

    Cheers!

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    my 75 hp runs on a 100 amp breaker. but has a soft start , so I have never tripped the breaker . I have been running it that way since December 2005. Just make sure you have the air supply you need as well. the SS are air hogs !!

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    Sizing rotary converter for 30HP Haas is different from 30HP motor. HAAS rectifies the incoming 3-Phase voltage and then runs spindle inverter and motor drives off a DC bus and has some large capacitors for smoothing. So regular sizing requirements based on meeting starting current of the largest motor don't really apply.
    Also, most of the power requirements come from the spindle motor, however, it hardly runs anywhere near the full load, unless you are constantly making heavy cuts at top speed. Ours tops at about 25% spindle load, and that is roughing aluminum with 1/2 tool at 7500rpm and 200 ipm
    Keep in mind breaker trip curves, 100 amp breaker will not instantly trip at 101 amp, it might take 10-20sec to trip at double the rated current (200 Amp), but only 20ms at 1000 Amps, while it can still trip at 95 Amps load after several hours. So it will give you enough juice to start a converter without tripping.
    However, for 100% duty cycle, you should size load at 80% of the breaker, so your continuous 2 phase draw is limited to 80 Amps, which is 46Amps 3 phase. Based on that, anything more than 30HP rotary is a waste of money as you are limited by your 100 amp service. Now will it run your HAAS? Probably yes, if you don't cut tool steel at heavy feeds all day long and don't put a bunch of other equipment on the same service

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    I have a 100 amp single phase panel that runs a 30HP Southern Converter out of Texas. It runs my Haas HL2 lathe and Lagun mill at the same time. The single phase panel has a 80Amp breaker for the Phase control box and a Eighty amp breaker for the 3 phase panel and a thirty amp breaker for the air compressor. They are very helpful and knowledgeable. They have all sizes, tell them what your running and the will let you know what you need. I was very surprised on how efficient it was.
    img_1080.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoss710 View Post
    my 75 hp runs on a 100 amp breaker. but has a soft start , so I have never tripped the breaker. I have been running it that way since December 2005. Just make sure you have the air supply you need as well. the SS are air hogs !!
    Thank you Hoss, we have a huuuge air supply (high psi/cfm). Looking at a non SS machine so my specs will be a bit lower than yours. Really good to hear about the longevity of your setup. Thanks for all the input, much appreciated!

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    Quote Originally Posted by zsinstruments View Post
    Sizing rotary converter for 30HP Haas is different from 30HP motor. HAAS rectifies the incoming 3-Phase voltage and then runs spindle inverter and motor drives off a DC bus and has some large capacitors for smoothing. So regular sizing requirements based on meeting starting current of the largest motor don't really apply.
    Also, most of the power requirements come from the spindle motor, however, it hardly runs anywhere near the full load, unless you are constantly making heavy cuts at top speed. Ours tops at about 25% spindle load, and that is roughing aluminum with 1/2 tool at 7500rpm and 200 ipm
    Keep in mind breaker trip curves, 100 amp breaker will not instantly trip at 101 amp, it might take 10-20sec to trip at double the rated current (200 Amp), but only 20ms at 1000 Amps, while it can still trip at 95 Amps load after several hours. So it will give you enough juice to start a converter without tripping.
    However, for 100% duty cycle, you should size load at 80% of the breaker, so your continuous 2 phase draw is limited to 80 Amps, which is 46Amps 3 phase. Based on that, anything more than 30HP rotary is a waste of money as you are limited by your 100 amp service. Now will it run your HAAS? Probably yes, if you don't cut tool steel at heavy feeds all day long and don't put a bunch of other equipment on the same service
    Extremely useful info, we have no intentions of heavy loads currently, mainly plastic, aluminum and some titanium. Interesting on the duty cycle, syncs with the research I did yesterday but is said in a really clear way, thanks for that. Great to hear that the 30HP on the 100amp service. Based on this it looks like the PL-50 from North American Phase Converters will do the trick. Correct me if I am wrong but it also sounds like the AD-40 from American Rotary would work as well with the Soft Start despite the current requirement being 125A when we only have 100Amp service.

    Based on all the info so far I am leaning towards the PL-50 from NA Phase Converters, a little more expensive than the American Rotary but it hits my specs without needing to change anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obstreperous View Post
    I have a 100 amp single phase panel that runs a 30HP Southern Converter out of Texas. It runs my Haas HL2 lathe and Lagun mill at the same time. The single phase panel has a 80Amp breaker for the Phase control box and a Eighty amp breaker for the 3 phase panel and a thirty amp breaker for the air compressor. They are very helpful and knowledgeable. They have all sizes, tell them what your running and the will let you know what you need. I was very surprised on how efficient it was.
    img_1080.jpg
    Thanks, that is great to hear. I was on their website but was a little deterred just based on pure looks of the site (so many images and it seems all over the place). Glad to hear they are working out for you.

    If you don't mind me asking what are the HP and Amps on your Haas and Lagun setup?

    I am going to contact them right now I'll obviously post back to the group once I make a decision and get it set up!

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    Really appreciate all the help everyone! Nice to find a community where you can ask a question and get truthfully helpful answers instead of shaming because you are asking what may be a simple question for others. Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjf5051 View Post
    Thanks, that is great to hear. I was on their website but was a little deterred just based on pure looks of the site (so many images and it seems all over the place). Glad to hear they are working out for you.

    If you don't mind me asking what are the HP and Amps on your Haas and Lagun setup?

    I am going to contact them right now I'll obviously post back to the group once I make a decision and get it set up!
    Wanted to add onto this after my conversation with Southern Phase Converters out of Texas. They said whatever the HP of your machine you need to double it on the phase converter. So if I am trying to run a 30 HP machine, I need a 60 HP Phase converter which unfortunately requires the 200 Amp service. The highest phase converter I am able to run from their lineup on my 100 amp service is the 30 HP which means that I can only run a machine with 15 HP with one of their converters.

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    I run vf2ss and vf4ss mills every day off RPC and there all feed off 60 amp breakers on my 240V single phase panel ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjf5051 View Post
    Wanted to add onto this after my conversation with Southern Phase Converters out of Texas. They said whatever the HP of your machine you need to double it on the phase converter. So if I am trying to run a 30 HP machine, I need a 60 HP Phase converter which unfortunately requires the 200 Amp service. The highest phase converter I am able to run from their lineup on my 100 amp service is the 30 HP which means that I can only run a machine with 15 HP with one of their converters.
    That is bullshit. I run 5 full-size CNC machines off a 60hp phase converter, simultaneously, every day.
    Two haas VF2ss, one haas VF3ss, one Brother R650, and one Okuma-Howa HL20 lathe.
    Combined "rated" HP is about 150. Actual is probably about 60. The three haas' have all been on 30amp slow-blow fuses for years.
    Never blown a fuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjf5051 View Post
    Wanted to add onto this after my conversation with Southern Phase Converters out of Texas. They said whatever the HP of your machine you need to double it on the phase converter. So if I am trying to run a 30 HP machine, I need a 60 HP Phase converter which unfortunately requires the 200 Amp service. The highest phase converter I am able to run from their lineup on my 100 amp service is the 30 HP which means that I can only run a machine with 15 HP with one of their converters.
    This requirement is based on satisfying starting current requirements, so the directly connected 3 phase motor spins up to speed in under 2 seconds or so. It does not really apply to the inverter driven spindle motor on HAAS.
    So you can literally run 30HP HAAS off a 30HP converter (with small deduction for controls and XYZ drives). Getting a bigger converter on 100 amp service is a waist of money. Here is the math:
    100amp x 240 = 24kVa /0.746 = 32.2 HP.
    Larger converter will not give you any benefits as you are limited by 100 amps. Putting 60 HP converter on a 100amp service is equivalent of adding a 4 lane section at the end of the 2 lane highway.
    The only reason to consider 60HP is if you plan on upgrading your service in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bjf5051 View Post
    Wanted to add onto this after my conversation with Southern Phase Converters out of Texas. They said whatever the HP of your machine you need to double it on the phase converter. So if I am trying to run a 30 HP machine, I need a 60 HP Phase converter which unfortunately requires the 200 Amp service. The highest phase converter I am able to run from their lineup on my 100 amp service is the 30 HP which means that I can only run a machine with 15 HP with one of their converters.
    Sounds right I have 10HP on the lathe and 3HP on the mill and the phase motor is 30HP

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    I am moving from California to Idaho, this spring I moved a vf2 7500rpm to Idaho and I ran it all summer with a north american rotary PL25 on a 100 amp service while I was waiting to get my 3 phase brought in. I had a 5hp 220 single phase Quincy compressor and a small air dryer as well. 2 times durring the summer I had the haas stop with a low voltage alarm as the spindle tried to start at the same time as the compressor, I reset it and it took right off again. I am of the opinion you could run your machine on a PL40 with perhaps a 3hp single phase compressor. When mine stopped it was while the spindle was ramping up not when it was cutting and it was only twice in thousands of parts. I knew the PL25 was way undersize for the amperage callout on the machine but before I moved it to Idaho, I ran the machine on a 20 amp breaker that didn't trip in a few weeks time so I took a chance on the smaller converter knowing I only needed it a few months. This is not apples to apples but I hope this is of some use.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I run vf2ss and vf4ss mills every day off RPC and there all feed off 60 amp breakers on my 240V single phase panel ...
    How does that work? I have always assumed/read that these machines need to run off 3 Phase power. When you run them on single-phase are there any drawbacks or limitations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizer View Post
    I am moving from California to Idaho, this spring I moved a vf2 7500rpm to Idaho and I ran it all summer with a north american rotary PL25 on a 100 amp service while I was waiting to get my 3 phase brought in. I had a 5hp 220 single phase Quincy compressor and a small air dryer as well. 2 times durring the summer I had the haas stop with a low voltage alarm as the spindle tried to start at the same time as the compressor, I reset it and it took right off again. I am of the opinion you could run your machine on a PL40 with perhaps a 3hp single phase compressor. When mine stopped it was while the spindle was ramping up not when it was cutting and it was only twice in thousands of parts. I knew the PL25 was way undersize for the amperage callout on the machine but before I moved it to Idaho, I ran the machine on a 20 amp breaker that didn't trip in a few weeks time so I took a chance on the smaller converter knowing I only needed it a few months. This is not apples to apples but I hope this is of some use.
    Thanks Kustomizer, good detail. I asked D.D. this as well but have you seen any drawbacks with running your machine on single-phase 240V? We are looking at a 10k spindle that has a higher HP rating but we also will not be using it to cut tool steel or anything at max load. Mainly looking for the 10k for increased process speeds when we are cutting titanium. Agree, it sounds like a limitation or chance of a fuse blowing is if you are right at the HP/amp limit and your equipment tries to do a high amp operation at the exact same second.

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    Mine only shut down 2 times and while the spindle was ramping up, never during a cut. Other than that it ran as normal. I would think the PL4o would do you just fine. I put a 30 amp breaker this morning on my VF2SS 30hp today and ran all day with no issue but there are no tools larger than 7/8 dia on this job in 6061 though this is in California with 3 ph power. I think your compressor may be as much of the issue as the machine. A couple of 3hp compressors may help, especially if they don't need the phase converter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kustomizer View Post
    Mine only shut down 2 times and while the spindle was ramping up, never during a cut. Other than that it ran as normal. I would think the PL4o would do you just fine. I put a 30 amp breaker this morning on my VF2SS 30hp today and ran all day with no issue but there are no tools larger than 7/8 dia on this job in 6061 though this is in California with 3 ph power. I think your compressor may be as much of the issue as the machine. A couple of 3hp compressors may help, especially if they don't need the phase converter.
    Not sure if you did the breaker test for this question but thank you very much for doing that. Good to know that it can run on so little amps (under lower load conditions). Right now we are going to be running tools on the smaller end 0.5" and won't be pushing the machine too much right off the bat with the dedicated parts we will have this machine making. That is good point on the compressor, it is on its own breaker but is still on the same sub-panel. I'll have to grab the specs when I get home (in Cali as well) and check it out. I feel like the PL40 is the one based on everyone's input and the price is right as well. Have a nice weekend kustomizer.

    Edit: Just got the specs from someone back home, the compressor is a Baldor 10HP/38A/230V which is on its own breaker in the subpanel.


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