HELP: 'new to me' '98 VF-OE getting code 107 E-stop at spindle speed change
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  1. #1
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    Exclamation HELP: 'new to me' '98 VF-OE getting code 107 E-stop at spindle speed change

    HELP!

    Recently bought a used 1998 Haas VF-OE 20hp. Got it in place and wired up. Have balanced load with input voltages matching input terminals (highest position). Spindle sounds good when running.

    Trying to run the 'spindle warm up' program below but keep getting error 107 EMERGENCY OFF when it switches to some speeds above 2000. Have been able to run up to 2000 and manually increase using 'spindle speed override'. Also the problem is NOT consistent. Appears to sometimes error out at 2400ish and sometimes anything above 4000. But never able to fully execute the below program.

    Have also played with the program to start at 1000 then ramp up every 1000 or 1500 rpm after 10 seconds or so to try and isolate the problem. I've tried various speeds and have gotten various results. Sometimes spindle load bounces to 100%+ when changing a speed and sometimes it would barely register. After getting the 107 code and then checking the cabinet there is nothing to indicate fault or error other than RED BEACON led on IO board. Spindle drive shows no fault.

    Dont see any loose connections or burned fuses. E-Stop button has freshly cleaned contacts and the 107 error is 'reset-able'. I tried it either way, with the counter-balance sensor jumpered, or connected and had same results.

    What in the machine would throw that particular error code 107 EMERGENCY STOP besides pressing E-stop button or counterbalance error?
    All other errors such as air, oil, drives, power, tool changer etc have their own error code designators. Right?

    I've seen NOTHING online anywhere about this problem.
    Dying here.



    %
    O02020 (Spindle Warm-up)
    (This program should be run prior to)
    (machine use if machine has been idle)
    (for more than 4 days.)
    (Cycle time: 20-minutes.)
    (This program can be used for all)
    (spindle types and may be used daily)
    (for spindle warm-up prior to high)
    (speed spindle use. Adjust spindle)
    (speed override depending on maximum)
    (spindle speed of machine: Set)
    (override at 50% for 5,000 rpm)
    (machines, set at 100% for 7,500)
    (& 10,000 rpm machines, and set at)
    (150% for 15,000 rpm machines.)
    (9-21-99)
    S500 M03
    G04 P200.
    S1000 M03
    G04 P200.
    S2500 M03
    G04 P200.
    S5000 M03
    G04 P200.
    S7500 M03
    G04 P200.
    S10000 M03
    G04 P200.
    M30
    %

  2. #2
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    was there something wrong with the reply I left you on the same machine on your other post ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoss710 View Post
    was there something wrong with the reply I left you on the same machine on your other post ?
    No sorry, this was my first post. It never went thru and couldn't find a record of having posted it. Thought maybe it got deleted by administrator as it was my very first post and had g-code in the text body.

    But this one is more detailed about machine if you wanna look it over.
    I just went out there and did the meter thing on the contactors. Not exactly sure what ohm setting to use. Example tried it on the lowest and seemed to have a slight resistance on L1 to T1. But not sure how hard to push contactor in to read and it is a flaky home depot meter. Also would the wired circuit affect that resistance reading even if unpowered?
    What am I looking for numbers-wise as a reading on 20ohm setting? ??

    Thanks!!!

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    push the contactor in as hard as you can . in the meters lowest setting it should read basically 0 ohms. another thing to consider is both the breaker size you used, and what gauge wire and how far is the run from the braker to the machine. the e stop circuit is powered by a transformer next to the main breaker in the back of the cabinet. it dies have 2 possible voltage inputs. it should read 24v ac after the transformer. I have seen any 1 of these issues cause the 24v to drop and create a false e stop situation. so check all of that as well as your tapped correctly in the bottom right transformer. also look for any discoloration around the delta/ wye contractors. I had a few different issues with those contractors either sticking, or having burnt contacts causing high current draw. they switch at 2000 rpm. the same rpm you are having the problem.

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    " they switch at 2000 rpm. the same rpm you are having the problem."

    It is somewhat random really. Seems to do 2000rpm ok. But mostly anything over 4000rpm is when it conks out.
    I have had almost full success in increasing via the "spindle override +10%" But I can hit it in rapid succession a couple of times and have it conk out too. Oddly has even has done it ramping down the RPM rapidly.
    The machine did run the warm up program at least once up to 5000RPM and failed at next rpm. Just afraid to keep trying it.

    Additional information:

    1. Transformer is wired on highest selection set. Legs are balanced within 5-10%.

    2. Created leg (high leg) is on the 3rd lug of the main switch. (not sure if that is correct or if it matters)

    2. Subpanel is 12-15ft away from machine with 45a breaker.

    3. RPC is 18-20ft away from 70amp breaker on the main panel.

    4. 6ga wire to the machine is heavier than the recommended 8ga.

    5. Wires to the idler are 8ga. (kind of weird but American Rotary said use it and doubled-down when I questioned their logic. But have been running other machine on it just fine.)

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    It is worth noting that inside the machines work enclosure is covered in a kind of dry film of oil stain from what appears to be caused by un-skimmed oil maybe? Evident by dark oil stain really contrasting the white panels inside. Tried every cleaner and chemical known to man to break it down, but it wont come off or even smudge without scuffing it off of the paints surface with fine sandpaper.
    Also the oil atomizer is leaking somewhere near the mac valve and fans appear to have been carrying a small amount of the oily mist inside the electrical cabinet.

    Bring this up because although it is not so noticeable inside the electrical cabinet, but evident by the fan blades being quite sticky, the contactors might be affected by that thin dry film?
    All of the drives are new within the last year and the rest of the boards appear to be original and look nice and un-tampered with.

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    ok 2 things stand out at me from your description.
    1 high leg should be on middle of your 3 incoming legs.
    2 are your taps set to your high leg? if so you will have to drop 1 or 2 voltages on your auto transformer closer to your lower legs. if that's the case drop it 1 and try it. also look at your DC voltage on your diagnostics screen. you will have to page down 2 or 3 pages til you see it. should read around 340 DC . if its below that then the taps are set to high on your auto transformer. a high leg is a delta input. haas will run delta , but it isnt as cut and dry to set up the auto transformer as wye is.

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    Aldo just noticed you are running a phase converter ( I have been running them for 20 years at my shop) what size motor are you running? and is it the only machine being powered by it? to run my vf3 and kia lathe I run 2 50 hp in parallel and tie them together with a Frankenstein switch to achieve the current I need to run both of my machines at the same time with no issues. otherwise I have issues with voltage droppage under heavy or sudden load increases.

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    Default The kicker

    "2 are your taps set to your high leg? if so you will have to drop 1 or 2 voltages on your auto transformer closer to your lower legs. if that's the case drop it 1 and try it."

    My high leg and the other two wires are all in range of the high range of the highest position (position in pic with yellow secondary wires). Initially was on second position just to left of high(peach colored secondary wires) before I knew to move them. Was still doing same thing.


    - My DC BUSS is at 344V

    - Yes, there is another machine on the subpanel. Been using it for 5 years. Wont be running this machine at the same time as the haas.

    - Will try moving the high leg to center lug.

    - I have an American Rotary AD25 with 25hp idler.


    I understand that my phase converter is rated below what is 'universally recommended' for my machine. However I do have a friend running a '96 VF3 15hp in his garage on a 15hp rotary with no issues. And have heard of several other cases similar while researching. Perhaps the difference is me having the delta-wye? Perhaps the problem is something entirely different?

    My 98 vfoe says 20hp on the big red sticker on the front. Have read that Haas inflated the numbers back then and 20hp doesn't necessarily mean 20 horse power. I understand this is a sensitive subject and subject to a lot of debate.

    If my rotory phase converter is the problem then I am interested in learning a cost effective solution. If at all possible I would like to make what I have work, even at reduced performance. At least for the time being. With that said though, I am still trying to rule out everything else before I go spending money.


    img_20191022_123556529.jpg
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_20191028_125117685.jpg  

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    I ran two VF-2's and a Hardinge CHNC 1 off of a single 20 HP converter on a 40 amp breaker for many years. Finally got another 30 HP converter and split them amd other equipment up, but never a problem.

    The created or wild leg should be on the center terminal. The outer two are used for solenoids etc.

    Mike

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    Default Could you please share a few more details?

    Quote Originally Posted by machineit2 View Post
    I ran two VF-2's and a Hardinge CHNC 1 off of a single 20 HP converter on a 40 amp breaker for many years.

    Could you please share a few more details?
    Do you have a static or rotary type phase converter?
    Anything special or modified about it?
    Did 1, 2 or all of those machines ever run at the same time?
    What are your wire gage sizes? Like from main panel to rotory box, to sub panel, to idler motor, to a VF2?
    What is your largest VF2 spindle Haaspower?
    Any of your VF2s have the wye-delta option?



    Quote Originally Posted by machineit2 View Post
    The created or wild leg should be on the center terminal. The outer two are used for solenoids etc.
    I will be doing that today and let you know the outcome.

    Thanks!

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    you have 2 variables here in play that unfortunately unless you have near a identical machine as what others are talking about, it's not the same. you have both a early vector drive, and delta / wye. the new haas of today's vector drive in my opinion is a wimp. now when the vector was first introduced it was a beast compared to the GDP 503s they use to come with. ( there is more to the vector story but this is neither the time or place to have it) what you have is a 25 hp phase converter driving a almost 30 hp drive. and yes the early 20 hp vectors were very capable of 30 hp! the delta/ wye also draws more current than a none delta / wye machine. I worked for haas as a tech for just over 10 years. I left haas in 2005 and still work on them today as time allows. if it were me I'd measure your voltage drop and check current with a amp probe . that will be the tell all. also do you have your ground tied to your breaker box, or a isolated ground to a 8 foot grounding rod ? most haas prefer a separate ground to a 8 ft grounding rod. FYI my 2006 vf2 SS I have hooked to a 75 hp converter and it's just enough for that machine alone. it has a optional 40 hp spindle. you might want to also pop open your phase converter power box. I have had a few capacitors go bad in mine over the 20 years I have ran them ( you may find a leaker or pregnant 1 or more that aren't giving you there all). 1 other thing you might try is monitor that 340 vdc as the delta/ wye is switching to see if there is any jump or drop in voltage. the DC from the vector drive powers your X,Y,Z axis drivers.

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    oh 1 other thing I didn't mention with my phase converters ( I have 4 all together. 2 that can run in parallel, 2 just for their dedicated machines) is I run 00 double ought wire to them all. and 4 gauge to my vf2 SS, lathe, and vf3. my vf1 I have 6 gauge as it only has a 10 hp spindle.

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    Default Delta-Wye questions

    I get what you are saying.

    Regarding the Delta-Wye option. From a novice point of view it looks like something extra added, Right? NOT replacing something else. Something extra being the 2 contactors?

    Is this something that can be disabled via a parameter or something if it came right down to it?
    Also are there parameters that could potentially be changed to compensate for the spike of the RPM change? Like alarm delay or a gentler ramp curve?

    Not to the point of messing with that kind of stuff right now, but if disabling the delta-wye is a simple thing then could help provide clues or answer.

    Thanks Hoss!

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    the delta /wye was a design around giving the machine more bottom end torque without the cost of a gearbox. when everything is happy it actually works pretty good. there is some ramp up parameters that are time related. but if you disable the delta / wye you will suffer from either no bottom end torque. or a very little max rpm let's say 3000 ish. there is also a rpm in which it shifts parameter. but ultimately even if you delay or change a bunch the 2 contractors will be shifting at either a rpm of 1500. or probably max 3000. I believe the unit could be wired hard in wye. but once again if ur running any decent size taps. or cutting things at low rpm it will be less than the machine is capable of. hard wiring it to wye would require disabling the delta /wye in the parameters. actually you could try disabling it without any wir changes and see what it does. and see how it runs or what it does as a test. I cant remember doing this in the feild myself. so I'm not sure if it will limit upper rpm or not. but it's a simple thing to try.

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    If I were to try the disable the delta/wye. What is the easiest/best method?

    Looks like a connector going to P12 on the IO board. Disconnect that?

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    no I would leave everything connected. go into the parameters I believe it's in 57 or 209 ( it's in the first 3 pages, parameters start at 57). there is 1 that says delta/ wye . it should read 1. you will need to go to setting 7 and turn the parameter lock off. then go into the parameters and find delta/Wye . then push in the estop. then push the number 0 then write , then it should change from a 1 to a 0. then reset the estop. and clear any alarms and try in mdi different rpms . keep a eye on the the load meter. if it gets acting weird or run high or Peg and not go back down. hit the estop. and change that parameter back to 1.

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    Not seeing anything that says Delta/wye. Perhaps I'm overlooking it or...
    Could it be called something else in 1998?

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    Ok, I'm looking at my screenshots of my parameters.
    Tell me if this looks like it...
    D:Y SW ENABL 1
    DY SW ON FLY 1


    Those are on different page that says COMMON SW 3 (PARAMETER278)

    If those are it then try disabling both?

    Thanks!

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    yes that is them . yes I would try disabling both.


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