How much power does the SS REALLY have?

StreetSpeed · Nov 10, 2010

Folks,

I hope within the next few months we'll be pulling the trigger on a new VMC to mostly run our production type stuff and larger quantity one-offs that breeze in and out of the shop (by that I mean lots of 50 plus that we'll probably never see again). We currently have 4 Haas VMCs, but the local Mazak guy has been very accommodating lately, and as I DO have plans for more production-oriented type of work, Mazak would certainly serve us better down the road.

But, that's neither here nor there. My real question is how much power does the SS actually have? Sure my 10K, 20hp VF3 says 20HP on the outside, but the best I can do with a half inch endmill in aluminum at full depth at 10K RPM is about 94ipm, or 23.5 ci/min. Divide that by unit power for aluminum and you're talking a whopping 7 horsepower at full rip. That's a far cry from 20. So, I just wonder if the 30hp SS version falls equally as short, or if since it's built for speed, that it has more available power at high rpm then the rest of the Haas offerings? Anyone have any baseline data? How fast can you rip through aluminum with your SS?

tc1999 · Nov 10, 2010

"ripping aluminum"

Well, given we are talking about a vertical, you will ultimately have chip removal as a big issue. However, the main thing that you will notice on a Haas vs the nice Japanese machines is rigidity in X, Y and yes...Z. I'd have a hard time believing that you will have an issue stalling the spindle with a 1/2" endmill in aluminum.

I'm sure Joe788 has mentioned the "Haas Swirls" in the corners of moves on Haas' that he can show you his machines don't leave. I will say it beats the heck out of the "Fadal Stop/Start lines" that they leave every time they change direction... :nutter:

So, that being said, the swirls are very tough to get rid of even on light cuts - you may not really be able to measure them, as they may be very minuscule, but they do show visibly.

The main reason I have to watch how fast I run my VF-3SS is the floors - well the walls too lol, but normally you have a finish pass for the walls. Lots of flex in the machine leaves horrible finishes even when the machine is fine running at some such high speed. (by fine I mean that there is no overload and everything sounds reasonable)

The SS' have the crappy whimpy ballscrews, though. I'd look into the mold machine for better finishes and probably more rigid overall machining. Other than "wowing" everyone that comes through on tour with the high speed tool changer, I'd rather have the mold machine.

Harter · Nov 10, 2010

Cant say much positive things about large frame high speed Haas machines.

We have 2007 Haas VF2-SS and 2010 VF3-SS with extended Y travel and...

http://koti.mbnet.fi/kizmo/misc/haas_surface_finish.JPG

We had guy from HFO to do ballbar testing which came out just fine and he tested different parametres suggested by haas and nothing really worked. Disabling HSM option helped a lot but still not perfect. And now according to Haas this is normal.

Part above is made with same tool and program. Even though VF2-SS has been in production use for its whole life it still makes decent finish.

EDIT:
VF3SSYT can take about 12kW cut without going over 100% on spindle load meter

JP Machining · Nov 10, 2010

I know a local shop that got one of the early SS machines (a 3 IIRC, with pallet changer) and complained about being able to stall a 2" face mill in aluminum at relatively shallow depth. I think they finally traded it in on a regular speed version.

How big of a machine do you need? Maybe a slightly used robodrill or brother would work if you want high speed.

Don't get me wrong I like my VF4, but would kill for a Mori or some other high end machine, and the new "Eco" machines from those higher brands might be quite competitive on pricing with the SS models with much better usable power.

StreetSpeed · Nov 10, 2010

Robodrill is not gonna cut it. I need something with with 40" x 20" travels, and I would make use of all available power, which I know the Robodrill doesn't have much of. I'd definitely like to make the switch to Mazak, but even if we could get the price within say 20-30% or so between the Haas and the Mazak, I'm sorta worried about the learning curve on an all new machine and control. If I got the Haas, I could have it up and running on day one, and don't know how long it would take me and in turn how long it would take me to train others to use it effectively. Oh well. Much to ponder I suppose.

Steve Seebold · Nov 11, 2010

If you buy a Mazak, you will replace all your Haas machines after you learn to use the Mazak control.

If you can bury a 1/2 inch endmill on your Haas, you can do the same thing with a 3/4 on a Mazak.

I spent 9 years at a company that had Mazak's, and if I could have afforded one when I started my shop, I would have had one. At that time, for the price of a Mazak, I could have bought 4 Fadals. I was starting on the cheap, so I bought the Fadal. Don't get me wrong, the Fadal was a good machine, but it ain't no Mazak.

SND · Nov 11, 2010

The mazak 410 and 510 are 10hp/cont machines, "25ph/5min".... haas is usually a 7.5 from what I could figure out but their SS may be a 10/cont? again brand of motor, torque curve and such things will make a difference I'm sure.

From what I saw on the HP charts the doosan DNM's have 15hp/cont as base spindle and they have even more powerful options.

Going fast is easy, going fast accurately is a whole other thing that takes a whole lot more than a higher pitch ball screw...

g-coder05 · Nov 11, 2010

Look at a gear box version of the haas. We run 8620 forgings in ours 24/6 and no problem. Granted Mazak, Mori, Matsura would be a more rugged machine. If you look at something keep in mind most people know regular Fanuc G code. Mazak will be a bit more difficult to find a programer to do both mazatrol and code. For example, We have five Haas and one mazak and the Mazak never even gets started. Not that its a bad machine but a versitile programer is hard to find.

StreetSpeed · Nov 11, 2010

If I have to program anything more than a bolt pattern I do it in our cam system. I would more than likely never use mazatrol to program anything so I would hope programming would be a non-issue.

Edster · Nov 12, 2010

I can't believe after the video you made for the okuma contest last year you would even consider another haas

Don't be afraid of a new control. I've got 2 haas controls, one fadal control, one fanuc, one okuma osp mill control and a okuma osp lathe control in the shop. Not as bad switching between them as you think.

NaturalPoint · Nov 12, 2010

2007 VF2-SS- 3" face mill 5 .12 radius inserts TSC .125 axial 2" radial 200ipm 6000rpm= 105% spike then 80%

Tiehen · Dec 15, 2010

Less Power Needed with Multi-flute tool & effecient toolpath

I am running some killer speeds on a HAAS VF2, VF3, VF3SS etc...with the right tool path and a multi-fluted tool from Helical Solutions (www.1helical.com) you can accomplish some killer S&F's without worrying about overloading the machine.

Check out the videos on the website listed above.

StreetSpeed · Dec 15, 2010

Thanks for the input, but I'm mostly interested in opinions who use the machines to make parts on a daily basis, not selling software and tools.

I'm pretty much settled on a Mazak 510C at this point. I can get one nicely optioned for about a $24,000 premium above a Haas VF-3SS. That's not a tough pill to swallow at this point.

KenFoulks · Dec 15, 2010

The SS series machines are awesome. Any specs given by any manufacturer are specific to an application. Attached is the torque chart for the 10k 30hp motor; if you are running at 9500 RPM, your hp drops to 15. 1500 to 4500 RPM yields the highest hp range; so when you choose tooling, look for this range if you want max hp.

SND · Dec 15, 2010

What's the continuous rating eh? Output peak is BS if there's no duty time attached to it.

jlegge · Dec 15, 2010

Monarch in Cortland, NY still builds and sells their heavy duty VMC, and imports and rebands lower cost machines of high quality. They might be worth checking out. You can't beat these mills for taking heavy cuts!

Edster · Dec 15, 2010

KenFoulks said:
The SS series machines are awesome. Any specs given by any manufacturer are specific to an application. Attached is the torque chart for the 10k 30hp motor; if you are running at 9500 RPM, your hp drops to 15. 1500 to 4500 RPM yields the highest hp range; so when you choose tooling, look for this range if you want max hp.

Why not post the hp/tq chart for the 12k 30hp SS instead of the 10k spindle with gearbox?

Why does the hp drop off at higher rpms? My okumas' motors reach peak hp and carry it to max rpm.

viper · Dec 15, 2010

HP = torque x rpm/5252

Torque falls off with rpm. If it did not, we would see an increase in HP the higher the spindle speed. Also, some machines (even some Haas machines) utilize wye-delta switching which is able to expand the curves much better.

viper · Dec 15, 2010

Edster said:
Why not post the hp/tq chart for the 12k 30hp SS instead of the 10k spindle with gearbox?

Why does the hp drop off at higher rpms? My okumas' motors reach peak hp and carry it to max rpm.

Which model? can you post a graph? Would be interesting to see differences. I know I have one on my Jap machines. Pretty impressive performance.

Edster · Dec 16, 2010

I was looking at the HP dropping off as the rpm rises not TQ.

Okuma Genos Brochure:

http://www.okuma.com/pdf/M460-VE.pdf

I'm using this machine as an example. I can't find a brochure on line for my mcv4020 (20 hp 15k cat 40 spindle) or my millac 561v (30 hp 10k cat 50 big plus spindle), both carry their full hp to max rpm.

Here's a Bridgeport GX brochure:

http://www.hardingeus.com/usr/pdf/milling/1353C_GX_Series_Brochure.pdf

Look at the GX1000 with the 10k spindle. 15kw spindle output at 5k and 5.5kw output at 10k. Seems like it would have trouble with a 1/2" EM at 10k in aluminum. Thats the Fanuc controlled machine. I wonder how the GX with the Okuma OSP P200 control, motors, and drives will perform.

What jap machines do you have viper? thought you were a die hard haas guy

How much power does the SS REALLY have?

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