How to remove HAAS DC shuttle in/out motor end ca

riseandgrind · Aug 1, 2015

How to remove HAAS DC shuttle in/out motor end cap

Like the thread says. I've been having alarm 113 and 114 issues. We believe the root of the problem is a loose set screw on the steel arm that mounts onto then shuttle in/out motor. The shuttle slides towards the spindle and alarms out just a hair before tripping the switch. If I push up on the arm that moves the shuttle about 1/4 inch I can watch the switch change to a 1 on the diagnostics screen. While doing that is when I noticed the arm could slide back and forth on the shuttle motor shaft. Not good. Accessing the set screw is a nightmare.

I pulled the motor since that was fairly simple and cleaned the brushes. The motor was working, although it didn't seem fast. Anyhow since the motor is out I figured I should really clean the contacts good. But I can't figure out how to remove the end cap off the motor so I can clean the armature. Bearing puller? I didn't see any screws. Almost looking like I need to disassemble the whole motor from the front side by the output shaft?

Any help? Do I need to do this? Also what size Allen for the damn set screw. Service manual says 1/8 but I think it's to big. Not sure can barely get at it even with a 10" extension and socket Allen.

It's a 1993 HAAS VF0

riseandgrind · Aug 1, 2015

I have attached a few photo's of the DC motor
When I pulled the brush out it seems kind of grimy, wasn't sure if it was from the alcohol I used the other day, but figured that should have evaporated since I only used a small amount on the end of the Q-tip

Before I install the motor, I know the major issue was the loose set-screw, but I want to make sure the motor has enough juice that it's turning that arm all the way up to engage the switch. Figured since it's out I should be patient and wait for some help on what I should do.

The armature looks a little rough and the brushes had some grooving in them, they still look decent shape to me?

riseandgrind · Aug 2, 2015

Well spent 16hrs this weekend trying to fix my Alarm 113 and 114 issues. I ended up pulling the entire shuttle motor Clutch Arm out. This allowed me to see what size set screw was inside the clutch arm. For anyone looking to address this, you will need an 1/8 sized allen. I also realized half my battle was dried up coolant inside the set screw head.

Now that the set screw mystery was solved, onto my next battle. Before I reinstalled the motor I did a test fit of the shuttle clutch arm onto the shuttle motor on my work bench. Without the set screw snug, there was about 1/4 to 1/2 play on the arm. up and down, or cw or ccw so to speak. I was also able to slide the clutch arm in and out on the shuttle motor output shaft where the key is. So I snugged up the set screw and this took most the up and down play out and also snugged the clutch arm onto the output shaft.

So I install the Shuttle Motor, Install the Clutch Arm, Lock-tite the set-screw, install the turret motor and give it a test.

Shuttle travels over to the spindle, tool umbrella opens up gets half way over the spindle and it once again shows shuttle in/out alarm. WTF! I reset alarm and send it home. Shuttle moves all the way back and alarms out! WTF. Reset and send home, boom clicks in.

At this point I have been 16hrs into this issue tearing the machine apart, calling members here (Sage) reading similar issues on the web, reading my service manual. What a pain in my ass, I want to learn how to make parts, not become a service tech!

Checked List:
1. Replaced On In/Out Switch - Verified on Diag Page that both switches Manually work when I engage them.
2. Cleaned Brushes on Shuttle Motor
3. Cleaned Brushes on Turret Motor
4. Cleaned Switches on Turret Motor Housing T1 and TWRK
5. Manually Verified T1 and TWRK switches work on Diag page.
6. Pulled Shuttle Clutch Arm off, cleaned, replaced set screw, re-installed.
7. Verified the shuttle wheels are clean of debris, shuttle appears to have nothing stopping it from full travel.
8. Have made sure the clutch are is positioned on the shaft to it doesn't miss the switches as it rotates up

Quirks:
1. My machine has the in/out switches that are solid mounted. They have no adjustment, like some of the older switches.
2. When I hit ATC/FWD and the shuttle travels over and alarms out, I can get under the arm and using my hand press up on the arm and it moves up about 1/4 inch and I can watch it engage on the Diag screen (0 to a 1) then when I hit auto return home, it alarms out, then I reset the alarm and watch the switch engage when it homes.
3. I now know for a fact the main issue is the clutch arm doesn't travel or rotate up enough to engage the switch.
4. So what's causing that?

Problems Left:
1. Clutch worn out or slipping, not allowing arm to swing up? Even though I have read that is a rare occurance?
2. Motor weak and not generating enough torque/travel or rotation at the end of stroke to get the arm swung up a full 180*
3.Relays bad possible?

Solutions:
1. Make a new mount that the in/out switches mount to with a pocket milled into it, so I can move the switch closer to the arm? At first that sounded good to me, but feel it's only a bandaid to my problem.

I am open to any other suggestions at this point as my brain is fried!!

Here is a quick video I shot

https://youtu.be/WrRKNYLtVqA

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WrRKNYLtVqA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

haastec · Aug 3, 2015

riseandgrind said:
Well spent 16hrs this weekend trying to fix my Alarm 113 and 114 issues. I ended up pulling the entire shuttle motor Clutch Arm out. This allowed me to see what size set screw was inside the clutch arm. For anyone looking to address this, you will need an 1/8 sized allen. I also realized half my battle was dried up coolant inside the set screw head.

Now that the set screw mystery was solved, onto my next battle. Before I reinstalled the motor I did a test fit of the shuttle clutch arm onto the shuttle motor on my work bench. Without the set screw snug, there was about 1/4 to 1/2 play on the arm. up and down, or cw or ccw so to speak. I was also able to slide the clutch arm in and out on the shuttle motor output shaft where the key is. So I snugged up the set screw and this took most the up and down play out and also snugged the clutch arm onto the output shaft.

So I install the Shuttle Motor, Install the Clutch Arm, Lock-tite the set-screw, install the turret motor and give it a test.

Shuttle travels over to the spindle, tool umbrella opens up gets half way over the spindle and it once again shows shuttle in/out alarm. WTF! I reset alarm and send it home. Shuttle moves all the way back and alarms out! WTF. Reset and send home, boom clicks in.

At this point I have been 16hrs into this issue tearing the machine apart, calling members here (Sage) reading similar issues on the web, reading my service manual. What a pain in my ass, I want to learn how to make parts, not become a service tech!

Checked List:
1. Replaced On In/Out Switch - Verified on Diag Page that both switches Manually work when I engage them.
2. Cleaned Brushes on Shuttle Motor
3. Cleaned Brushes on Turret Motor
4. Cleaned Switches on Turret Motor Housing T1 and TWRK
5. Manually Verified T1 and TWRK switches work on Diag page.
6. Pulled Shuttle Clutch Arm off, cleaned, replaced set screw, re-installed.
7. Verified the shuttle wheels are clean of debris, shuttle appears to have nothing stopping it from full travel.
8. Have made sure the clutch are is positioned on the shaft to it doesn't miss the switches as it rotates up

Quirks:
1. My machine has the in/out switches that are solid mounted. They have no adjustment, like some of the older switches.
2. When I hit ATC/FWD and the shuttle travels over and alarms out, I can get under the arm and using my hand press up on the arm and it moves up about 1/4 inch and I can watch it engage on the Diag screen (0 to a 1) then when I hit auto return home, it alarms out, then I reset the alarm and watch the switch engage when it homes.
3. I now know for a fact the main issue is the clutch arm doesn't travel or rotate up enough to engage the switch.
4. So what's causing that?

Problems Left:
1. Clutch worn out or slipping, not allowing arm to swing up? Even though I have read that is a rare occurance?
2. Motor weak and not generating enough torque/travel or rotation at the end of stroke to get the arm swung up a full 180*
3.Relays bad possible?

Solutions:
1. Make a new mount that the in/out switches mount to with a pocket milled into it, so I can move the switch closer to the arm? At first that sounded good to me, but feel it's only a bandaid to my problem.

I am open to any other suggestions at this point as my brain is fried!!

Here is a quick video I shot

https://youtu.be/WrRKNYLtVqA

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/WrRKNYLtVqA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Looking at your video, the shuttle motor does appear to be weak. Find the plug for the motor and take some measurements; lead to lead and each lead to motor casing. Report back what you measure.

I have a brand new shuttle motor and I measure 52ohms lead to lead and open from each lead to motor casing.

haastec · Aug 3, 2015

riseandgrind said:
At this point I have been 16hrs into this issue tearing the machine apart, calling members here (Sage) reading similar issues on the web, reading my service manual. What a pain in my ass, I want to learn how to make parts, not become a service tech!

/QUOTE]

Trust me, when you get all of this sorted out, and you will, you will be very happy to have intimate working knowledge of your machine and confidence in your ability to take care of issues when they arise.

Remember, it's an old machine and it will have it's share of issues that come up from time to time.

Keep at it, you will get there!!

riseandgrind · Aug 3, 2015

So I swapped the relays. Still received alarms113 and 114 shuttle out fault.

I unplugged the shuttle motor and took took a reading. 7.2 Ohms on white and 7.3ohms on black. That was lead to lead. I could not get a reading from lead to motor casing? I also checked the turret motor since I had access to it at the moment. It was reading 22

I called and spoke with HAAS and they verified the Shuttle motor should Read 7.5 and the Turret motor should read 21

So now I can eliminate the motor and relays. So that leaves the clutch? But doesn't seem like many people have had a clutch issue. Afraid I might have to bite the bullet and get a HAAS service tech out to bleed my wallet dry.

I will add some photos here a little later. Right now I took the turret motor out of the tool umbrella and also removed the roller guide/bearing that rides inside the shuttle casting. I can now ATC/FWD and RETURN home without the shuttle moving, and it allows me to look inside and see what the clutch arm is doing. When I hit ATC/FWD the arm rotates up and barely engages the switch, not enough to trigger the switch. I can reach up and press the switch and watch it go to a 1 on the diagnostics screen.

Then I hit Zero Retun, One Axis Only and the arm rotates back towards the in switch and the machine faults out and the arm is about half an inch away from the switch, WTF. I hit reset and hit auto return home one more time and the arm swings up and contacts the switch.

SOOO why is it faulting out before the arm has a chance to swing up and trigger the switch? I thought maybe the motor doesn't have enough torque, but we eliminated that. Maybe the relay is bad? We eliminated that? Maybe the shuttle is hanging up? We eliminated that, since I have the shuttle disconnected.

Seems like the only options are to machine a new bracket the switch mounts to which will allow me to move the switched in more, or maybe the clutch is bad? Kind of hard to tell.

So I can confirm ATC/FWD the arm doesn't swing high enough up to engage switch. Noting I can do to engage other then manually engage it. Return home switch will engage, but only after it alarms first and I hit manual home again?????????????????

magno_grail · Aug 3, 2015

Check Parameters 62 and 63 Shuttle start and stop delay. Maybe they are too short and not allowing the shuttle to fully move before a fault is generated. I had to increase my draw bar delay to keep from getting tool unclamp faults.

riseandgrind · Aug 3, 2015

Checked that long ago,

Param 62 = 400
Param 63 = 2000

Those I believe are the factory settings, but I did however increase them just to eliminate some things, nothing helped.

Pulled the Shuttle Motor Slipper Clutch arm off tonight. Never really saw a slipper clutch that looked like that. Had a spanner not on with a slight bevel, tried to use a punch and loosen the nut so inspect it's internals. The spanner nut is made of an extremely soft material, couldn't budge that bastard and it wanted to deform the notch.

Going to call Haas tomorrow and price a new clutch arm and ask a few questions. Hopefully I can get this bastard figured out.

BGL2 · Aug 5, 2015

Moving the switch is the right thinking but the wrong solution - You may find that the roller on the switch is very loose causing no or delayed contact. It should spin but with no noticeable radial play.

I have gone thru the trouble of removing and replacing the worn pin. You may find replacing the entire switch a better economic choice.

To remove the endbell. Clamp the gearbox solidly to a bench or in a vice. Remove brushes, remove the bolts. Grab the body of the motor and give it a slight left / right motion while pulling - be ready for it to release suddenly. the entire thing pulls off directly. The shaft is a slip fit to the inner bearing and a spiral gear form is ground on the shaft, its the dried coolant that is holding it together - soaking it with isopropanol is not a bad idea.

If is still stubborn, gentle tapping with a small plastic or better yet a rawhide mallet will help.

I would leave the slipper assembly alone unless it is actually slipping, if you can easily move the shuttle in and out by hand and its not rocking around on loose rollers and whatnot, that's not your problem.

Let us know how it works out..

haastec · Aug 5, 2015

riseandgrind said:
So I swapped the relays. Still received alarms113 and 114 shuttle out fault.

I unplugged the shuttle motor and took took a reading. 7.2 Ohms on white and 7.3ohms on black. That was lead to lead. I could not get a reading from lead to motor casing? I also checked the turret motor since I had access to it at the moment. It was reading 22

I called and spoke with HAAS and they verified the Shuttle motor should Read 7.5 and the Turret motor should read 21

So now I can eliminate the motor and relays. So that leaves the clutch? But doesn't seem like many people have had a clutch issue. Afraid I might have to bite the bullet and get a HAAS service tech out to bleed my wallet dry.

I will add some photos here a little later. Right now I took the turret motor out of the tool umbrella and also removed the roller guide/bearing that rides inside the shuttle casting. I can now ATC/FWD and RETURN home without the shuttle moving, and it allows me to look inside and see what the clutch arm is doing. When I hit ATC/FWD the arm rotates up and barely engages the switch, not enough to trigger the switch. I can reach up and press the switch and watch it go to a 1 on the diagnostics screen.

Then I hit Zero Retun, One Axis Only and the arm rotates back towards the in switch and the machine faults out and the arm is about half an inch away from the switch, WTF. I hit reset and hit auto return home one more time and the arm swings up and contacts the switch.

SOOO why is it faulting out before the arm has a chance to swing up and trigger the switch? I thought maybe the motor doesn't have enough torque, but we eliminated that. Maybe the relay is bad? We eliminated that? Maybe the shuttle is hanging up? We eliminated that, since I have the shuttle disconnected.

Seems like the only options are to machine a new bracket the switch mounts to which will allow me to move the switched in more, or maybe the clutch is bad? Kind of hard to tell.

So I can confirm ATC/FWD the arm doesn't swing high enough up to engage switch. Noting I can do to engage other then manually engage it. Return home switch will engage, but only after it alarms first and I hit manual home again?????????????????

To clarify, you removed the guide roller attached to the shuttle motor arm which moves the carousel in/out, correct?

When you command a tool change, the tool changer assembly does not move, but the shuttle motor turns on and swings the shuttle arm back and forth to try and engage the shuttle in/out switches? If this is the case, then the clutch for the arm is having no effect on the rotation. The only exception is if you can visibly see the motor shaft spinning free inside the clutch as if the drive key is missing or sheered. If the drive key is in place then I would look elsewhere for the issue.

DO NOT MODIFY THE SWITCH BRACKETS!!!! If you do this, you are putting a band aid on a symptom and not fixing the real issue.

If you cannot get a ohm reading from each motor lead to motor casing, then get a reading from each leg to the nearest ground wire. Any reading less than infinity or open means you have leakage to ground but my rule of thumb has always been less than 1 megohm is no good; fix or replace.

Given all the information you have provided and viewing the video, I would suspect a bad/weak shuttle motor still.

riseandgrind · Aug 5, 2015

BGL and HAAS Thanks for the input.

Yes I disconnected the roller bearing which travels in the milled pocket inside the shuttle/trolley casting. This allowed me to pull the clutch arm down and access the set screw without having to rig a 10' extension setup. Once I secured the set screw on the output I decided to leave the roller bearing out of the casting so I could watch the clutch arm swing back and forth.

I will try to keep this simple.

1. I press ATC/FWD and watch the arm swing up. The arm will just barely touch the switch, but not enough to engage and it alarms out.
2. I press Return Home (Auto Power Up) and the arm swings back and arms out about a 1/4" away from the switch. I then hit RESET to clear the alarm and hit Return Home one more time and the arm swings up and activates the switch.

So first things first. Why is the arm not swinging up high enough to trip the switch when I hit ATC/FWD?

Next when I return the machine home why is it alarming out before it gets to the switch, it clearly rotates up high enough to engage?

My thoughts......shuttle motor is weak and it's timing out before it gets to the switch

Lastly, when the set screw came loose, we don't know how long it was slopping around in there. When I pulled the shuttle motor, and clutch arm I was able to move the clutch arm up and down almost a half inch. Its my belief that over time the slop egged the clutch arm out. When I tightened the set screw all the slop went away, but now I have a slight indexing problem due to the wear.

Food for thought, when I took the brushes out for the second time I noticed they looked WET almost oily and commutator looked to have the same grime. I spoke with the previous owner of the Mill and he informed me, at one point in time he took that same motor apart to replace a seal that had gone bad!!

I spoke with a tech at my local HSO dealer and he thinks the same thing. So I have ordered a new clutch arm, and more then likely it sounds like a new motor will be on it's way.....HSO the only place to get a turret motor as that runs about 415 bucks?

sagespecialized · Aug 5, 2015

I have been helping riseandgrind work thru the issues. Someone has replaced the shuttle switches with the style that goes on the X and Y axis and they have also done away with the stock adjusting brackets. Basically his switches are in a fixed position with no linear adjustment.

The motor has checked out electrically as he spent some time with a Haas tech as he mentioned in an above post. I think were down to the slipper clutch assembly causing a binding issue when the arm swings around. If the arm swings a full half rotation it will engage the switches properly but something is causing the rotation to come up short. I had him remove the entire carousel from the rail so he could get a better look at it...still waiting to see what the outcome is on the slipper clutch.

sagespecialized · Aug 5, 2015

oh mr. riseandgrind were up early...

how did the slipper clutch R&R work out?

riseandgrind · Aug 5, 2015

sagespecialized said:
oh mr. riseandgrind were up early...

how did the slipper clutch R&R work out?

Yes, def a big thanks to Sage he has spent a good amount of time on his phone helping me out, going to owe that guy a few 12 packs.

I pulled that clutch arm and tried to mess with the spanner nut, but that son of a bitch is def pre-loaded. After talking with the HAAS tech he said "DONT TOUCH THE CLUTCH ARM" it comes pre-loaded from the factory. We both believe the clutch arm has some extra play in it from the set screw coming loose.

I also spoke with the tech about the switches, he didn't seem to think they were an issue. If you look at the online service manual dated 1993 which is the same year as my machine the drawing/schematics show the same fixed position switch.

Again at this point, just a quick thanks to everyone who has chimed in with their ideas and support. So far we have been able to address all the known problems and eliminate most of them. This would have been a moral buster if I had not had all the help.

FYI taking the plastic tub apart so I could get the shuttle casing and umbrella out is a real PIA! I will be a certified HAAS service tech before I even get to make on chip on this bastard!

As usual I will update the thread soon as I make some more progress.

rwbaldwin · Aug 5, 2015

This brings back bad memories of a new VF-0 that was eventually fixed under warranty.

IIRC (it was 20 years ago), the root cause was found to be a bad solenoid or regulator which caused the cylinder to operate slowly due to low air pressure at the cylinder. The output of the main regulator was OK and there was no low pressure alarm.

It was thought that the shuttle motor started to move before the cylinder stopped causing damage. The set screw was loose in our case too, but it didn't simple come loose - there was damage.

The shuttle motor/clutch/arm was replaced too as they knew something was damaged, but they couldn't easily determine what (it was on their dime).

riseandgrind · Aug 5, 2015

rwbaldwin said:
This brings back bad memories of a new VF-0 that was eventually fixed under warranty.

IIRC (it was 20 years ago), the root cause was found to be a bad solenoid or regulator which caused the cylinder to operate slowly due to low air pressure at the cylinder. The output of the main regulator was OK and there was no low pressure alarm.

It was thought that the shuttle motor started to move before the cylinder stopped causing damage. The set screw was loose in our case too, but it didn't simple come loose - there was damage.

The shuttle motor/clutch/arm was replaced too as they new something was damaged, but they couldn't easily determine what (it was on their dime).

Not what I want to hear

haastec · Aug 5, 2015

I am not by any means trying to say you or Sage are incorrect in your diagnosis that the clutch arm is bad. My assumptions can easily be incorrect regarding this issue as well, so I hope my points don't come off incorrectly.

If the clutch arm is disconnected from the carousel, which means it is just a plate swinging back and forth by the motor. Doesn't this mean there is no load on that clutch arm which in turn means nothing for the clutch to slip against? Even if it is sloppy, I don't see how the clutch can be affecting its rotation.

I am okay being wrong with my thoughts so feel free to correct me, but I am not seeing it.

Since you have clear access now, what happens when you remove the clutch arm and all you have is the shuttle motor shaft. If the motor is working fine, it shoud spin a few rotations looking for the switch, which it won't find, then alarm out from the start/stop delay parameter. Set a timing mark on the shaft, if it does not rotate more than 1 time (I would expect more), then bump your parameter start/stop delay a significant amount and see if changes much. If the motor just stops, then delays for a bit until the alarm pops up, then I still believe you have a bad motor.

The clutch arm is cheaper, so I hope I am wrong.

Good luck!!

haastec · Aug 5, 2015

riseandgrind said:
Food for thought, when I took the brushes out for the second time I noticed they looked WET almost oily and commutator looked to have the same grime. I spoke with the previous owner of the Mill and he informed me, at one point in time he took that same motor apart to replace a seal that had gone bad!!

This supports my theory even more. I would still be interested to hear what you get for resistance measurement from each motor leg to ground.

sagespecialized · Aug 5, 2015

Hey Haastec, no worries on the political correctness. A spade is a spade and you have more years at this then I possibly could. We are just working thru the process of elimination. I see where you are going with this though....

Take the load off the motor to see if it even goes thru the full rotation, or if it craps out before it gets there.

Having the motor stagnate is where the HFO Tech was having him OHM the motor to get his readings, it might be a different story if it is under load with the clutch.

riseandgrind work it and tell us what happens!

haastec · Aug 6, 2015

sagespecialized said:
Hey Haastec, no worries on the political correctness. A spade is a spade and you have more years at this then I possibly could. We are just working thru the process of elimination. I see where you are going with this though....

Take the load off the motor to see if it even goes thru the full rotation, or if it craps out before it gets there.

Yes, but unless I am not visualizing this old machine correctly, there should be no load on the motor even with the clutch arm connected since the roller guide, not to mention the whole tool changer (I like this go all in approach by the way :cheers:

)has been removed. This also means there should be no resistance against the clutch itself to be a contributing factor.

sagespecialized said:
Having the motor stagnate is where the HFO Tech was having him OHM the motor to get his readings, it might be a different story if it is under load with the clutch.

riseandgrind work it and tell us what happens!

With regards to ohming the motor, he has given me leg to leg measurements, but I want to see leg to ground measurements; leg to motor casing (ground) is preferred. Hint hint, nudge, nudge .....

How to remove HAAS DC shuttle in/out motor end ca

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