"Lazy" coolant

SeymourDumore · May 27, 2020

Guys, on your new(er) machines - say 2016 or newer - does your coolant flow suck?

IOW.
I have some 2006 machines with the older style coolant pumps.
When it's turned on, the coolant appears almost full blast at the nozzle in no more than 1 second.
Same thing in reverse, when turned off the flow immediately begins to diminish, and in less than 3 seconds all there is a small drip here and there.
This is even on the VF4 with quite a bit of hose distance in the head.

Now on the new machines ( 2016 and 2018 ) there is the new black pump, and it works like shiit.
One of them takes 2-3 seconds for coolant to appear, and another 3-5 seconds to get to full flow.
When turned off it takes maybe 5 seconds or more for it to crawl to a dribble, another 3-4 to just drip.
The other is far far worse. I routinely have to turn on the coolant just after the toolchange, and give a few seconds of dwell in certain cases just to make sure
the tool doesn't just plow into the material with no coolant.

This didn't just start all of a sudden, it was like this from the word go.
I'm about to tear into the friggin' things and prepared to toss these shitty pumps if I have to, but wondering if others have noticed something like this.

Thank you!

D.D.Machine · May 27, 2020

I would check your program?

T1 m06 (tool call)
M08 (Coolant on)
T2 ( next tool pre stage )
M03 S12000 ( spindle on )
G54 (fixture offset)
G00 G43 Z.1 H01 D01 ( move to top of part)

By putting my coolant M08 line right after the tool call it seems to get the coolant flowing by the time the cutter gets to the part even on my DM2 at 2400 IPM rapids . sounds like you might by putting the M08 line in the wrong spot?

By doing it this way you have the dwell time of getting the spindle up to speed and also getting the cutter moved to your clearance plane over the top of your part.

SeymourDumore · May 27, 2020

D.D.Machine said:
By doing it this way you have the dwell time of getting the spindle up to speed and also getting the cutter moved to your clearance plane over the top of your part.

I am doing it, but why should I?
Just because Haas decided to put a piece of absolute garbage for a pump on the machine?
The older ones are great, even after 14 years of trouble free operation.

I am not exaggerating when I say that it takes as much as 10 seconds for a full flow of coolant, and even then the pressure is still laughable compared to the old ones.

D.D.Machine · May 28, 2020

I thinking its something with the machine more than the pump? I run 4 Haas mills every day all 2015 and newer and have had no problem's with the pumps at all,, I had two mills show up with there plastic POS filters on them and one had the O ring seal go out and the second one cracked the filter housing but both times Haas sent out there new cast aluminum filters and well I have had there jets get plugged on the spindle manifold that's been on me for not cleaning the tanks of all the super fine aluminum. even the new DM2 with the 5 extra jets washing down the chips I get good flow out of the spindle jets,,,

You might pull the hose going to the spindle manifold and see how the flow is up to that point. Well I don`t think they have a lot of pressure you should be getting a lot of flow.

You might look up your machine on the Haas parts site and see if there is a one way Valve to keep the coolant from back flowing back to the tanks.

ChipSplitter · May 28, 2020

That's odd because we have a 2018 VF2 and it's exactly the way you described your older machines. It takes barely 2 seconds for full force coolant to be there.

Mike1974 · May 28, 2020

ChipSplitter said:
That's odd because we have a 2018 VF2 and it's exactly the way you described your older machines. It takes barely 2 seconds for full force coolant to be there.

And we have a 2013 that has the OP's "lazy" coolant. Don't think it is a year of manufacture thing....

jz79 · May 28, 2020

is there a coolant flow diagram somewhere in the manual? it sounds like a stuck valve, stuck near closed position

there might be a one way mechanical valve somewhere or a solenoid controlled one, to prevent unnecessary back flow after the pump is turned off, and since there is a lot of air in the pipes when the coolant drains back, there will be no flow at the the next pump start, and probably will be a noticeable puff of air just before coolant starts to flow, and because there is some pressure behind the stuck valve, when the pump is turned off, the flow will not stop near instantly but continue to dribble for a bit

Delw · May 28, 2020

SeymourDumore said:
Guys, on your new(er) machines - say 2016 or newer - does your coolant flow suck?

IOW.
I have some 2006 machines with the older style coolant pumps.
When it's turned on, the coolant appears almost full blast at the nozzle in no more than 1 second.
Same thing in reverse, when turned off the flow immediately begins to diminish, and in less than 3 seconds all there is a small drip here and there.
This is even on the VF4 with quite a bit of hose distance in the head.

Now on the new machines ( 2016 and 2018 ) there is the new black pump, and it works like shiit.
One of them takes 2-3 seconds for coolant to appear, and another 3-5 seconds to get to full flow.
When turned off it takes maybe 5 seconds or more for it to crawl to a dribble, another 3-4 to just drip.
The other is far far worse. I routinely have to turn on the coolant just after the toolchange, and give a few seconds of dwell in certain cases just to make sure
the tool doesn't just plow into the material with no coolant.

This didn't just start all of a sudden, it was like this from the word go.
I'm about to tear into the friggin' things and prepared to toss these shitty pumps if I have to, but wondering if others have noticed something like this.

Thank you!

I like the term "lazy coolant"!
Anyway what its usually cause by is a bad check valve. what happens when you have a good check valve that seals the coolant wont back down the hose. it will pretty much stay put except for a little that draws out of the tip. if the check valve has chips or is worn it will leak back into the coolant tank.
its kinda like a straw, you stick it in water, holder your finger on the top and and it wont come out. but soon as you turn it a tad or let your finger off it drains.
coolant lines work the same way.
those check valves they put on the side cabinet above the coolant tanks work very well.Ive had to clean mine quite a bit as fines get in them. the other thing is if the flapper hinge isnt loose in there it wont seal because you dont have any back pressure, the back pressure is made by the weight of the what coolant is in the line.
if you have a burr on the flapper or the face it seats against it wont work. fines will get stuck.
I have an extra here and when the one on the machine gets really bad I swap it out and use the extra. cleaning the one I just pulled out. most of the time its just fines in the coolant that runs back in the line and doesn't allow the flapper to close all the way.

greggv · May 28, 2020

I've a 2018 VF4 and the coolant is almost instantaneous. The few times it lagged, the filter in back was dirty...cleaned it and all is good!

Djstorm100 · May 28, 2020

There is a check valve that comes off the alum canister on the back of the machine. Looks like a small T fitting with plug going in from the top. Check that, before you take out the plug use the was down hose to drain the canister down. Put the nozzle at the tank and squeeze the trigger.

SeymourDumore · May 28, 2020

So I guess the consensus is that new machines do have an OK pump.
One thing I forgot to mention that both of these machines also have the 10 micron filter canisters.
BUT!
On one of them I've installed a bypass setup so it can run without the canister just in case.
The bypassing makes very little difference, probably more on the shutting-off than starting up.

The check valve was ... well checked, I even removed it from the side canister's output and mounted it to where the older machines have them, which is right at the pump.
That made everything worse.
That was shortly after install, did not mess with it since.
Now OTOH I'm at at the end of my ropes, tearing it apart as soon as possible.

Djstorm100 · May 28, 2020

SeymourDumore said:
So I guess the consensus is that new machines do have an OK pump.
One thing I forgot to mention that both of these machines also have the 10 micron filter canisters.
BUT!
On one of them I've installed a bypass setup so it can run without the canister just in case.
The bypassing makes very little difference, probably more on the shutting-off than starting up.

The check valve was ... well checked, I even removed it from the side canister's output and mounted it to where the older machines have them, which is right at the pump.
That made everything worse.
That was shortly after install, did not mess with it since.
Now OTOH I'm at at the end of my ropes, tearing it apart as soon as possible.

The factory filter is 250 micron. I would be concern about coolant being stripped from the water with 10 micron, just my 2 cents.

I would put the check valve back in the oem position. Does the pump sound like it cavitating at all during start up?

my machine YouTube

CarbideBob · May 28, 2020

I do not have one of these but if I had a 2 second delay on full coolant my life would be so very, very bad.
Often the full cycle run is only 6 to 8 seconds.
Sometimes we will stick in a G04 for 0.2 or 0.3 seconds right after the M08. On a longer cycle part perhaps the same for more time?
Bob

SeymourDumore · May 29, 2020

Djstorm100 said:
The factory filter is 250 micron. I would be concern about coolant being stripped from the water with 10 micron, just my 2 cents.

I would put the check valve back in the oem position. Does the pump sound like it cavitating at all during start up?

my machine YouTube

DJ

My setup is pretty much identical to yours ( STD coolant pump + TSC + Chip Blast + MOM ) with the addition of this: Auxiliary Coolant Filter

Djstorm100 · May 29, 2020

SeymourDumore said:
DJ

My setup is pretty much identical to yours ( STD coolant pump + TSC + Chip Blast + MOM ) with the addition of this: Auxiliary Coolant Filter

I have the same aux coolant filter on my TSC TSC [emoji16]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Delw · May 29, 2020

SeymourDumore said:
So I guess the consensus is that new machines do have an OK pump.
One thing I forgot to mention that both of these machines also have the 10 micron filter canisters.
BUT!
On one of them I've installed a bypass setup so it can run without the canister just in case.
The bypassing makes very little difference, probably more on the shutting-off than starting up.

The check valve was ... well checked, I even removed it from the side canister's output and mounted it to where the older machines have them, which is right at the pump.
That made everything worse.
That was shortly after install, did not mess with it since.
Now OTOH I'm at at the end of my ropes, tearing it apart as soon as possible.

That kinda tells me you have a bad check valve or crap in your lines.
I would go to the hardware store and buy a new one put it on.
mines a 2009 vf2ss. I put filters on mine but they clogged up so fast it wasnt worth it. 2-3 days of surfacing and the filters were clogged. even ran a bypass with 2 more filters so I could continue to run while changing filters.
after about a year I took them off. started using cheese cloth(or somthing like that someone posted here) and fine window screen that cleared up my issue with fines. now I can get almost a year before cleaning the tank of fines. that being said I dont surface near as much.
I would like to put the filters back in and might one of these days.
funny thing neither one of my Fadals have chip in the coolant issues the 1996 org pump still runs like new

Add'd
one thing I noticed about the Haas is that the coolant pumps runs very close to the bottom of the tank, my fadals set about 1-2" high off the bottom.

sirAIG · May 31, 2020

Maybe you've got bad pumps. My new Haas hp pump is instant

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

metal-ica · Nov 19, 2020

Did you ever get this resolved?

I just took delivery of a gently used 2018 machine. While doing a thorough cleaning and flush out it appears that the coolant pump is a beast when pumping directly out the 2' hose from the pump. When I attach it to the filter canister with the check valve on it our pressure goes way way down. I'm not sure what part of the system is causing it to wimp out. It's not terrible pressure but I want heavy duty flow to flush out chips in deep narrow pockets.

SeymourDumore · Nov 19, 2020

metal-ica said:
Did you ever get this resolved?

No, not exactly yet.
But!

The check valve is fine.
I have replaced it, no difference.

I did find one thing. On the filter canister, there is a bypass hose that goes from the outlet ( bottom ) back to the top of the canister.
I think it's just to equalize the pressure or something.
Anyway, it has a small porous metal filter in the lower T, which was completely plugged ( like 100% plugged ).
After cleaning, it got a little better, but not something to write home about.
I've disassembled everything from the pump to the column entry, nothing ...

For now the only solution I've found is to keep the coolant level at max at all times.

Next check ( and I'm ashamed to admit not doing it yet ) is to swap the pumps between the VF4 and the VF2.
I'll have a complete flush and refill coming up around the holidays, that will be the perfect time.

Djstorm100 · Nov 22, 2020

SeymourDumore said:
No, not exactly yet.
But!

The check valve is fine.
I have replaced it, no difference.

I did find one thing. On the filter canister, there is a bypass hose that goes from the outlet ( bottom ) back to the top of the canister.
I think it's just to equalize the pressure or something.
Anyway, it has a small porous metal filter in the lower T, which was completely plugged ( like 100% plugged ).
After cleaning, it got a little better, but not something to write home about.
I've disassembled everything from the pump to the column entry, nothing ...

For now the only solution I've found is to keep the coolant level at max at all times.

Next check ( and I'm ashamed to admit not doing it yet ) is to swap the pumps between the VF4 and the VF2.
I'll have a complete flush and refill coming up around the holidays, that will be the perfect time.

post a picture of this canister and hose routing. Very well could be your issue

"Lazy" coolant

Diamond

Stainless

Diamond

Stainless

Titanium

Diamond

Stainless

Stainless

Hot Rolled

Cast Iron

Diamond

Cast Iron

Diamond

Diamond

Cast Iron

Stainless

Aluminum

Cast Iron

Diamond

Cast Iron

Similar threads