A message to Haas management

otrlt · Jan 3, 2019

I have remained silent to all of the mostly negative posts about your products.

I would prefer to buy American made machinetools, but I'd like you to focus on milling machines only. Let others spread themselves broader to turning machines.

What the US market needs most is high end vertical machining centers.... Period!

Quit allowing the "bean counters" dictate your business.

Matt@RFR · Jan 3, 2019

otrlt said:
What the US market needs most is high end vertical machining centers.... Period!

We already have those. They come from Japan, Germany and Korea.

otrlt · Jan 3, 2019

Matt@RFR said:
We already have those. They come from Japan, Germany and Korea.

That's my point Matt,
thank you

gustafson · Jan 3, 2019

Haas has never made high end machine tools

If all your budget has is Haas, great machine

But when you can get anything else, there is much else out there

Speed, meaning a combination of horsepower, spindle speed, acceleration and rapid rate, isn't everything, it is the only thing.

If your Haas runs a job in 8 hours, then there are machines out there that will do it in 5, and cost far less than 8/5ths of what the Haas cost.

There is nothing wrong with Haas, tho I like to poke fun, they do what they do.

Confusing them with high end machine tools will just be frustrating

otrlt · Jan 3, 2019

gustafson said:
Haas has never made high end machine tools

It's time they do, for their own sake.

gustafson · Jan 3, 2019

otrlt said:
It's time they do, for their own sake.

I guess what I am saying is that is like asking Kmart to sell high end clothes,

It just isn't in their DNA

On the other side of it, how long before you would buy a 100k Kia?

Kia makes a good car, but not a high end car

otrlt · Jan 3, 2019

gustafson said:
I guess what I am saying is that is like asking Kmart to sell high end clothes,

It just isn't in their DNA

On the other side of it, how long before you would buy a 100k Kia?

Kia makes a good car, but not a high end car[/QUOTE

Comparing Haas to Kmart is a bit too harsh.

Can Haas make a high end machinetool? absolutely.

otrlt · Jan 3, 2019

gustafson said:
I guess what I am saying is that is like asking Kmart to sell high end clothes,

It just isn't in their DNA

On the other side of it, how long before you would buy a 100k Kia?

Kia makes a good car, but not a high end car

Companies that purchase machinetools care very little of cost, what they desire most is overall quality an resale value.

triumph406 · Jan 4, 2019

otrlt said:
Companies that purchase machinetools care very little of cost, what they desire most is overall quality an resale value.

I've never worked for a company that bought a new machine and worried about resale value, the subject has never come up. If you intend to buy a machine tool for say $80-200k, why would you care what it's resale value is 10 years down the road?

If what you say about cost is true, why did so many Fadal's get sold, and now Haas's? Fadals existed, and now Haas's as the affordable way of starting a machine shop.If cost were no object I'd have Mori's and Okuma's, but like a lot of people I couldn't afford to go that route.

wheelieking71 · Jan 4, 2019

otrlt said:
I have remained silent to all of the mostly negative posts about your products.

I would prefer to buy American made machinetools, but I'd like you to focus on milling machines only. Let others spread themselves broader to turning machines.

What the US market needs most is high end vertical machining centers.... Period!

Quit allowing the "bean counters" dictate your business.

What puts you so in tune with "what the US needs most" to be able to make that statement?

Bean-counters will always dictate. Money drives everything. What would be the point for HAAS if it wasn't profitable?
I feel they could definitely make some different/better decisions/compromises for their own well being, and staying power.
But, they still need to be profitable.
I'm not taking HAAS's side. My opinion is well documented. Just trying to figure out where in left field you were standing when you decided to post that?

gustafson · Jan 4, 2019

I don't disagree with his overall point, I think a higher end US machine tool would be good, just that Haas may not be the people to do it.

I mean, a ton of people here would prefer to buy US made, if the machine was what they needed and it needn't be super cheap, but it better be good

Bigbore050 · Jan 4, 2019

A serious question,

How much of a Haas machine is actually made in the USA?

Are the spindle bearings, ball screws, linear guides, and electronics all actually made in the USA?

Where does all the cast iron come from? Is it 100% US sourced or at least cast in US?

When you buy a Haas lathe does it have a american built chuck on it?

Now not so serious,

According to Haas they "produce" over 13,000 machines a year. To produce these machines they have 296 chip making machines in their machine shop. 211 of them are Haas machines. To me that seems like a tall order for only 296 machines and then figure they are mostly Haas

Maybe part of the problem is using Haas machines to make Haas machines.

wheelieking71 · Jan 4, 2019

Bigbore050 said:
A serious question,

How much of a Haas machine is actually made in the USA?

Are the spindle bearings, ball screws, linear guides, and electronics all actually made in the USA?

Where does all the cast iron come from? Is it 100% US sourced or at least cast in US?

When you buy a Haas lathe does it have a american built chuck on it?

Now not so serious,

According to Haas they "produce" over 13,000 machines a year. To produce these machines they have 296 chip making machines in their machine shop. 211 of them are Haas machines. To me that seems like a tall order for only 296 machines and then figure they are mostly Haas

Maybe part of the problem is using Haas machines to make Haas machines.

That's not it at all. Tolerances are tolerances.
I have never seen an issue with HAAS quality, in anything other than design.

gustafson · Jan 4, 2019

wheelieking71 said:
That's not it at all. Tolerances are tolerances.
I have never seen an issue with HAAS quality by anything other than design.

True enough, again as much as I like to make fun, you rarely hear BS quality issues, mostly just not heavy enough or fast enough or nowadays controls are aging out

As far as 296 machines, I can believe that. Haas has families of machines that can probably have their castings machined on the same machine. When you are doing a thousand of one base casting a year, you probably have your setup including cranes etc down pat. And they have been doing it for a while, and at a low price point, so probably efficiency is paramount

otrlt · Jan 4, 2019

wheelieking71 said:
What puts you so in tune with "what the US needs most" to be able to make that statement?

Bean-counters will always dictate. Money drives everything. What would be the point for HAAS if it wasn't profitable?
I feel they could definitely make some different/better decisions/compromises for their own well being, and staying power.
But, they still need to be profitable.
I'm not taking HAAS's side. My opinion is well documented. Just trying to figure out where in left field you were standing when you decided to post that?

Good Afternoon Wheelie,
From decades of experience in manufacturing I have learned a very important fact. Quality Rules All.

I found an old slogan from a machinetool builder ; Axelson Machine Co. Los Angeles, Ca.

"THERE IS NO ECONOMICAL SUBSTITUTE FOR QUALITY"

A Bean Counter would never understand this phrase.

TDegenhart · Jan 4, 2019

To the issue about resale value: Large companies don't care a whit about resale value. They have a depreciation schedule that in the end, the machine has no 'book' value.

A company buys a mill for $1,000,000. It has 'book' lifetime of 10 years. It's 'book' value declines by $100,000 a year (straight line depreciation). At the end of the 10 years, the machine is no longer needed. Actual value of the machine may be $250,000 but from a bookkeeping standpoint it has no value. When I worked at GE the procedure was to offer the machine to any other GE department for the "carrying (book) value". Assuming no other GE unit wants it, the typical procedure was to have two or three used machinery dealers bid on it. If there were on bids, the machine was sold for scrap.

Tom

mhajicek · Jan 4, 2019

gustafson said:
I guess what I am saying is that is like asking Kmart to sell high end clothes,

More like asking Kmart to focus on high-end shirts, because no one needs pants. There are a lot of Haas lathes out there making money for their owners, but if you want to go without pants that's up to you.

wheelieking71 · Jan 4, 2019

otrlt said:
Good Afternoon Wheelie,
From decades of experience in manufacturing I have learned a very important fact. Quality Rules All.

I found an old slogan from a machinetool builder ; Axelson Machine Co. Los Angeles, Ca.

"THERE IS NO ECONOMICAL SUBSTITUTE FOR QUALITY"

A Bean Counter would never understand this phrase.

That is fine. I get all that. I was speaking specifically of the US needing only mills not lathes aspect of your post.
Because, that is what your original post states.
Quality is great. We all love a quality machine. For the record, I feel HAAS has great quality........
Everywhere except design. The fit/finish is great. They are (at least were?) reliable as the day is long (excluding the first couple years of next-gen).
It is only design that could use improvement. They would do well to add a whole bunch of weight.
In all the right places, for all the right reasons, of course.
But, why do you feel they need to quit offering lathes, in order to improve mills?

otrlt · Jan 4, 2019

wheelieking71 said:
That is fine. I get all that. I was speaking specifically of the US needing only mills not lathes aspect of your post.
Because, that is what your original post states.
Quality is great. We all love a quality machine. For the record, I feel HAAS has great quality........
Everywhere except design. The fit/finish is great. They are (at least were?) reliable as the day is long (excluding the first couple years of next-gen).
It is only design that could use improvement. They would do well to add a whole bunch of weight.
In all the right places, for all the right reasons, of course.
But, why do you feel they need to quit offering lathes, in order to improve mills?

Great Question Wheelie,
My suggestion to focus on milling centers is just to zone-in on 1 product. A good example would be what Kitamuura and Nakamura-Tome do in their business. Each of these exceptional machinetool companies are single minded.

I have also noticed that Haas makes way too many different models (now I sound like a Bean Counter).

In closing, my suggestions are not meant to put down Haas, but like all US manufacturers, I not only want them to succeed, but also to dominate.

CarbideBob · Jan 4, 2019

Perhaps you are mistaking what you want for what the market buys.
I have to ask what your position in the machine tool world was in the 70's, 80's and 90's?
Do you remember when the largest Hass product would sit on your desk and the USA made the premier machines of the world and the stuff from Japan where the toy machines?
Bob

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