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  1. #21
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    I have 4 VFs and only one gives us any problems relating to this. We found that using pull studs with longer threads and a longer relief groove that puts it further into the body of the tool holder and making sure that they were installed no tighter than 55 ft/lbs helped a great deal. We will still get a pop now and then when running a long engraving or milling cycle at 7000-7500 rpm where we get some thermal expansion caused issues. For the most part it is much better now though.

    Curtis

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  3. #22
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    I had a VF0 that was very bad for not ejecting tools and the way I fixed it was to put a 10 gallon air tank on the machine downstream from the regulator. Before installing the tank the air pressure would drop to about 60psi during a tool change because the regulator could not supply enough flow for the volume of the air cylinder ejecting the tool. After the tank was there the pressure never dropped below 80psi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machineit2 View Post
    Air over hydraulic is also what I would do too probably. But, air/hydraulics and it has its limitations to, the biggest one being speed. All of the newer machines are going to super fast tool changes and that means that the system would have to be power down and power up. This would make it a little slower and speed is everything right now.

    Straight hydraulics is much better, but like I said, adds cost and reliability issues. Life is a compromise unfortunately and it will always be.

    Mike
    My GX1000 is only a year and a half old. It's no robodrill but I wouldn't consider it's toolchanger slow. It's just as fast as my MCV4020 VMC and MB4000 HMC and they are both hydraulic.

    I don't know what you mean by power up and down. The tool release is just compressing a bellville stack doesn't matter if its air, hydraulic, or air over hydraulic. Release pressure and the spring stack clamps the tool.

    I don't buy the claim that a hydraulic tool release would be any less reliable than an air release system. Use more energy running the pump yes but less reliable no.

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    There's a previous thread dealing with sticking tools, which is the source of the OP's "pop." Unlike hydraulic oil, air is a compressible medium so it doesn't compress the Belleville stack smoothly. If there's a greater than normal resistance it just builds up until a threshold is reached. The post about using longer pull studs with a longer thread relief is very true, deeper into the holder there's less tendency to distort the taper. Every time we've had a release bang develop--about once every two years--breaking the glaze with some Scotchbrite has cured the problem.

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  7. #25
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    Mike, old wrench, and Curtis thanks a lot for the info!
    Ill keep fiddling with it!
    My buddy at Fox has the same problem. From what I hear it's real bad on some machines.
    The grease seems to be the easiest fix. Along with maintainsbce and care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lupuscorp View Post
    The grease seems to be the easiest fix. Along with maintainsbce and care.
    Just remember that grease attracts more dirt and grime along with chips. IMO grease creates additional problems.

    Its best to wipe the tapers down with a light oil.
    Do whatever works for you though.

    Good luck!
    Last edited by haastec; 04-18-2014 at 09:18 AM. Reason: typo

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    Default Mill: Tool release too powerful (sometimes)

    @haastec thanks man! What's your oil of choice for this? Ever tried a Teflon or something like that?

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    I got turned onto Elmer's slide all. A quick spray every other day on the taper of the spindle and no more sticking tools.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    I got turned onto Elmer's slide all. A quick spray every other day on the taper of the spindle and no more sticking tools.
    Works ga'wood on wabbits too!

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    Quote Originally Posted by haastec View Post
    Just remember that grease attracts more dirt and grime along with chips. IMO grease creates additional problems.

    Its best to wipe the tapers down with a light oil.
    Do whatever works for you though.

    Good luck!
    it most certainly does. but until haas can figure out their problems I'm using grease reluctantly so I don't damage the machine. oil and scotch bright do nothing. my 20 year old matsuura and robodrill don't have any oil on the tapers, grease on the retention knob and no problems with tools changing at all....

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    Quote Originally Posted by haastec View Post
    Just remember that grease attracts more dirt and grime along with chips. IMO grease creates additional problems.

    Its best to wipe the tapers down with a light oil.
    Do whatever works for you though.

    Good luck!
    it most certainly does. but until haas can figure out their problems I'm using grease reluctantly so I don't damage the machine. oil and scotch bright do nothing. my 20 year old matsuura and robodrill don't have any oil on the tapers, grease on the retention knob and no problems with tools changing at all....

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    Quote Originally Posted by BGL View Post
    Works ga'wood on wabbits too!
    You can only lead a horse to water

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboMiller View Post
    it most certainly does. but until haas can figure out their problems I'm using grease reluctantly so I don't damage the machine. oil and scotch bright do nothing. my 20 year old matsuura and robodrill don't have any oil on the tapers, grease on the retention knob and no problems with tools changing at all....
    Its called cheap shit draw bar with no engineering thought to coefficient of thermal expansion and contraction at the time of development.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    Its called cheap shit draw bar with no engineering thought to coefficient of thermal expansion and contraction at the time of development.
    that cannot be. reason i say this is as follows and im sure the people who this actually happens to can relate. take a tool holder and a spindle of the same room temperature while setting up a new job for instance. no parts have been made all day, everything at the SAME temp. put in a fixture, put your tool holder in with an indicator and do some sweeps of your fixture. maybe 15 mins goes by. release the tool manually and POP! tool comes shooting out. so all you haters who say its thermal expansion blah blah blah your wrong. no heat of any kind has been made or dissipated in that time but it pops like a mofo.

    MY SHOP DOES NOT SIT THERE AND HOG MATERIAL FOR A HOUR, THEN TOOL CHANGE AND POP AND ME SIT THERE WONDERING WHAT HAPPEN. SO THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE. THANK YOU

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  20. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoboMiller View Post
    that cannot be. reason i say this is as follows and im sure the people who this actually happens to can relate. take a tool holder and a spindle of the same room temperature while setting up a new job for instance. no parts have been made all day, everything at the SAME temp. put in a fixture, put your tool holder in with an indicator and do some sweeps of your fixture. maybe 15 mins goes by. release the tool manually and POP! tool comes shooting out. so all you haters who say its thermal expansion blah blah blah your wrong. no heat of any kind has been made or dissipated in that time but it pops like a mofo.

    MY SHOP DOES NOT SIT THERE AND HOG MATERIAL FOR A HOUR, THEN TOOL CHANGE AND POP AND ME SIT THERE WONDERING WHAT HAPPEN. SO THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE. THANK YOU
    Then your spindle taper and or the tool is contaminated. They need to be cleaned regularly. During use a glaze builds up on them from dried contaminated coolant and such.

    A question for all of you, I know with the carrousel type tool changer that coolant gets on the tools and into the changer itself. Does this happen as much with the side mount changers? Do they have the same amount of tool sticking problems?

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by machineit2 View Post
    A question for all of you, I know with the carrousel type tool changer that coolant gets on the tools and into the changer itself. Does this happen as much with the side mount changers? Do they have the same amount of tool sticking problems?

    Mike
    Usually the slapping of the tool change arm will alleviate this condition if it exists, so the problem is less noticible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haastec View Post
    Usually the slapping of the tool change arm will alleviate this condition if it exists, so the problem is less noticible.
    I know that with the carrousel it even gets chips and all in it, so I imagine that the side mount will get less contamination too.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by haastec View Post
    Just remember that grease attracts more dirt and grime along with chips. IMO grease creates additional problems.

    Its best to wipe the tapers down with a light oil.
    Do whatever works for you though.

    Good luck!
    In all honesty, oil or grease makes no difference in attracting dust etc. The amount of grease I use on the taper is so small, that after the tool sets for the first time you don't see it any longer. The cleanliness is the real issue in all of this. A perfectly clean, lubricated tool and taper will almost never stick.

    So much fun!

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by Edster View Post
    I don't buy the claim that a hydraulic tool release would be any less reliable than an air release system. Use more energy running the pump yes but less reliable no.
    Sorry, unreliable was the wrong choice of words, complicated would be better. To add an hydraulic system to the machine just to change tools would not be practical. It would just add parts to fail.

    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by machineit2 View Post
    Sorry, unreliable was the wrong choice of words, complicated would be better. To add an hydraulic system to the machine just to change tools would not be practical. It would just add parts to fail.

    Mike
    The only real advantage of an air operated tool release is cost. Hydraulic is no more complicated. There is a cylinder and lines for both hydraulic and air. Hydraulic will have more pressure so the cylinder can be more compact. Hydraulic will not suffer from a drop in pressure like air will when there is a surge typically when changing tools and a spindle air blast is incorporated. Hydraulic is also a closed loop system, there are no contaminants introduced to the system by the compressed air system. I would say this fact alone makes hydraulic more reliable especially in shops that don't have air dryers and proper filtration.

    I have two Okuma lathes that use hydraulic systems to unclamp the turrets. One has air plumbed to it but only for an air blast to clear chips. Both can be operated with no air what so ever. Both turrets are quiet, smooth, and very fast. Can't say the same for my old Haas SL-10 that used air. It was clunky and loud.

    Also I have never had a hydraulic pump fail. But I do occasionally change the oil and filter if it has one.


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