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New Haas VF-2SS, machine installation cost?

wiggo

Aluminum
Joined
May 7, 2006
Location
Sweden
Hi,


I have contact with my local HFO regarding a new VF-2SS stocked in EU for fast delivery times. The Haas website says that the machine installation cost is included in the price for these EU stocked machines. I've added three extra options (renishaw probe, jog handle and automatic coolant refill) and the machine installation cost quoted is above $3000 (rigging, shipping, export package, transport insurance, etc are quoted on other lines).

I've read that it just takes a day for one guy to install a whole VF2 so the amount doesn't feel reasonable. Adding the MQL & auto-air gun options would add another $900 to the installation cost. Is this normal?

We are a group of people in wheelchair who are building a servo assisted exoskeleton prototype and I'm responsible for the mechanical part of the project, as we are all contributing to fund this machine I want to be sure we're not getting screwed. Right now I have a bad feeling, even though the salesman is aware of the project and has said that the installation price is lower than normal and can't go lower.

Would really appreciate some feedback from the community.

Thanks
 
I typed things all out and then think I misread what you wrote. Are you saying that there is a $3000 line item for JUST the installation of the machine, and separately the rigging/shipping/insurance/export is also priced? And separately the options are priced? If that's the case that is odd. Initial setup of the machine should be included with the purchase of a new machine, or at least it is here in the U.S.

There is probably some cost to install the Renishaw probe and the Auto Air Gun/MQL, because they were not done at the factory and there is some physical work required to install them, maybe $900 for all of that sounds right. Coolant refill and jog handle should be free install, they aren't doing much to get them going.

$3,000 to install the machine is ridiculous if that is truly what they are saying. It is free from every company here in the U.S. If they spent an entire day billing you normal hours it should be 1/3 of that. If they're expecting you to fly a technician from another country, pay for their car, hotel and meals and a long work day, then it could be $3,000. I would have them clarify what is needed there. It is possible that the machine price is kept low after export and that the dealer doesn't get hardly any cut and that the install is their profit.
 
install is free in the US ,,, are you asking about trucking and rigging and not leveling the machine and powering it up ?

FYI
Auto coolant refill is CRAP
it just dumps in what ever you have it set for and not what mix you need to keep it at 7% or what ever you like to run at ... the other thing is my self at least I like to let my level go down if I have a stainless job or a lot of steel tapping to do and then I can get it up to about 10 to 12% and when I go back to alum work I can do a thin mix and get it back to 7% ....

I have one of the little $200 mixers off ebay and it works great. I have 20 min free every morning to clean out the machine and play with the coolant well the spindle is warming up ..

Prob is GREAT, I think being in a wheel chair it would be a great help

MQL and air blast blast don`t work as good as one would think .. I had them on a vf2ss a couple years ago and would NEVER buy them agion

before I ordered my last vf2ss 4 months ago I turned off the P-cool on my other vf2ss to see if I needed it and never turned it back on ... with the 4 jets at about 90* apart and coming down at the angle they do you don`t need P-Cool anymore.

By turning off the p_cool you get better flow out of the normal 4 jets and it does a better job of flushing even in deep holes .

Are you doing production work or small lot size work?
If its low lot sizes I would look at a VF2 ( non SS ) machine ...
 
I typed things all out and then think I misread what you wrote. Are you saying that there is a $3000 line item for JUST the installation of the machine, and separately the rigging/shipping/insurance/export is also priced? And separately the options are priced? If that's the case that is odd. Initial setup of the machine should be included with the purchase of a new machine, or at least it is here in the U.S.

Yeah, it's JUST for the installing of the machine. Rigging/shipping/insurance/export/options are quoted separately.

There is probably some cost to install the Renishaw probe and the Auto Air Gun/MQL, because they were not done at the factory and there is some physical work required to install them, maybe $900 for all of that sounds right. Coolant refill and jog handle should be free install, they aren't doing much to get them going.

$3,000 to install the machine is ridiculous if that is truly what they are saying. It is free from every company here in the U.S. If they spent an entire day billing you normal hours it should be 1/3 of that. If they're expecting you to fly a technician from another country, pay for their car, hotel and meals and a long work day, then it could be $3,000. I would have them clarify what is needed there. It is possible that the machine price is kept low after export and that the dealer doesn't get hardly any cut and that the install is their profit.

Yep, the homepage and catalogue I got from the salesman says the same thing, free install cost, but additional install costs for options that are not installed on the stocked machine.
 
I just looked at the quote for our VM-3 with several optional extras. It was quoted in March 2018 and the machine was installed in early September. It has US$3000 for shipping and brokerage (to Canada) as the price is FOB Oxnard CA. Nothing extra for installation including the various options that were installed on site like the extra lighting and ventilation unit.
 
install is free in the US ,,, are you asking about trucking and rigging and not leveling the machine and powering it up ?
The cost is about the leveling of the machine and making it ready for operation.

FYI
Auto coolant refill is CRAP
it just dumps in what ever you have it set for and not what mix you need to keep it at 7% or what ever you like to run at ... the other thing is my self at least I like to let my level go down if I have a stainless job or a lot of steel tapping to do and then I can get it up to about 10 to 12% and when I go back to alum work I can do a thin mix and get it back to 7% ....

Yeah.. as in wheelchair I felt it would be nice just to get rid of the hazzle with mixing and stuff, as it's connected to the water supply. The machine will only be used for prototypes and not series production in different materials, mostly aluminum. I was thinking we can just use the alu mix for all materials, maybe I'm thinking wrong?

Prob is GREAT, I think being in a wheel chair it would be a great help

MQL and air blast blast don`t work as good as one would think .. I had them on a vf2ss a couple years ago and would NEVER buy them agion
I was thinking that in periods when the machine is not being used very much it would be great to just have the MQL and skip the coolant, and generally try to skip the coolant as much as possible and favor MQL to try to minimize getting wet which is very easy in wheelchair as everything falls into the knee. But I may have missed something which makes it bad to use MQL?

before I ordered my last vf2ss 4 months ago I turned off the P-cool on my other vf2ss to see if I needed it and never turned it back on ... with the 4 jets at about 90* apart and coming down at the angle they do you don`t need P-Cool anymore.

By turning off the p_cool you get better flow out of the normal 4 jets and it does a better job of flushing even in deep holes .

Are you doing production work or small lot size work?
If its low lot sizes I would look at a VF2 ( non SS ) machine ...

It's small size work. I read about the ballscrews and would have preferred VF2, but that one is more expensive in EU, and can not choose 12k spindle, only 10k or 15k

Thanks for the input
 
I think you will be cleaning chips out many times more than you'll be topping off the coolant. Maybe in your situation the coolant refill is a good move, but I've heard from a few guys not to do it. My Haas salesman told me he wouldn't sell it to me.

MQL is definitely cool. I think their option is way too expensive but it is integrated into the control and that has definite value in your case. I don't know what fluid they recommend for the MQL; the nice thing about regular coolant is you can basically leave the parts in a bucket of water when they're finished and they will come out clean. With MQL I don't know if you need degreasing or if that matters with following processes?

Yeah that's expensive for install, I would see why that is. That might raise a better question too. See why they're charging so much - if it's expensive because they have to have the tech travel from far away, then you should expect to be in the same position if you ever need support or repairs, which is very likely.
 
auto mixer well never work from what I have seen ,,, I run 250C coolant and have vary little carry off,, in cooler weather I can go days with just dipping the parts in a bucket of water and dumping the bucket into the machine at the end of the day ,,, meaning I have to add "NO" new coolant and just water.

I "ALLWAYS" check to see were my coolant mix is at before adding water or cooland to the tank. some might think its nuts to watch the mix that close but I try and stay about 7% for alum .. I have never welded up a tool at 7% or had sticky or rust in the mills. If your thinking you can set the auto mixer at even a 5% mix your going to have a machine full of soup in a few weeks.

As for MQL
I tried it and it sucked, tool life went WAY down and the inside of the mill was coated in the oil crap by the end of the week ,, the oil was every were. I played with the mixer valve for the oil and air and by the time I got good tapped holes and quit welding up endmills it was about the same as using a mister, worst part was it put oil in my coolant and made it so I had to pull my coolant tank and even clean it out. your way better off using flood coolant.

VF2
If your just running one off parts the standard 8100 RPM well work fine in alum ,, Even with my 12K spindles I hog alum a lot at 8K so I stay down in the power curve and get better cutter life...

I think a standard vf2 ( 8100 RPM ) with a auger and probing would be the best bang for the buck, turn on the hi speed machining when you get to making parts you think you might need it and see if its worth spending the money on at that point, its as simple as sending your HFO a check and then giving you the code to keep using it after like 200 hours.
 
A shop I worked in years ago we made a wheel chair ramp for one of the guys and it worked out great, it had a ramp at one end and handrails up the side and other end, it just had like a 6" tall rail on the machine side ,, we welded it up out of steel and had 4 wheels under it with a bottle jack to raise it for moving it around the shop. It must have weighed 500 lbs but was nice and stable.
 
auto mixer well never work from what I have seen ,,, I run 250C coolant and have vary little carry off,, in cooler weather I can go days with just dipping the parts in a bucket of water and dumping the bucket into the machine at the end of the day ,,, meaning I have to add "NO" new coolant and just water.

I "ALLWAYS" check to see were my coolant mix is at before adding water or cooland to the tank. some might think its nuts to watch the mix that close but I try and stay about 7% for alum .. I have never welded up a tool at 7% or had sticky or rust in the mills. If your thinking you can set the auto mixer at even a 5% mix your going to have a machine full of soup in a few weeks.

When calibrated, do you know if the autorefill will add the correct percentage set in the control? I was thinking I could just enable the coolant and fill a glass, measure the concentration in the glass, and then set the mix in the settings to either higher, or lower to compensate for if the mix in the tank is wrong.

As for MQL
I tried it and it sucked, tool life went WAY down and the inside of the mill was coated in the oil crap by the end of the week ,, the oil was every were. I played with the mixer valve for the oil and air and by the time I got good tapped holes and quit welding up endmills it was about the same as using a mister, worst part was it put oil in my coolant and made it so I had to pull my coolant tank and even clean it out. your way better off using flood coolant.

Ok, I think I'll skip the MQL then. The only reason I added it was because I tought it would be better and not pollute the air around the machine as much as mist



We actually did put an order on the VF-2SS-EU just before christmas. After we met the HFO rep we only had to 2 days to decide to order the machine as we were told the VF-2SS-EU model will be discontinued and there're only a few left in stock, and after New Year the campain will be over and there will be a huge price increase for a machine with the same configuration.

I was a little surprised when one of the members who are funding the project called me at the beginning of the year and said that the campaign is still there and that the price of the machine has been reduced by another $2300. And some days after that another guy who is funding the project asked why there's a installation cost in the quote when the official Haas website and catalogues says that the installation cost for the EU machines is included in the price.

He mailed Haas Europe to ask if the installation is included in the price or not. They responded that the policy is that the installation is included in the price, but that the HFO add installation costs for extra options that require some time to mount. The HFO says they have found a way to get bypass that policy and charge for the installan also because Haas does not compensate them for making the installations, and said all HFO's in Europe bypass it.


However, the machine arrived last week and next thing is the installation. The HFO owner called and we agreed to split the installation cost in half, so we'll put this behind even though there is a bad feeling that remains which we wish wasn't.
 
I've got the coolant auto mixer on a VF-3SS we've had for three years. Yes you have to keep adjusting it, and you have to use one setting for initial fill and another for topping up, but I find it saves a lot of labor. On my way out at night I check coolant level, and if it needs more I hit a couple buttons and walk out. Compare that to manually mixing every single time.
 
this is the Coolant mixer I have been using

GROZ 0-9% model CMX/3+

There about $210 on ebay and seem to work great.. With the 250C coolant I have found I use vary little coolant mix to keep the sumps at 7% . so I just order 5 gallon buckets and drag a hose around the shop ,, the bucket and mixer are sitting on a harbor freight dolly and it takes vary little time to top off the machines at about 5 gallons a min. its nice not having to carry buckets to the saws, mills, lathes ,ETC like I did when I was doing the bucket and stick mixing
 
The cost is about the leveling of the machine and making it ready for operation.

This is the first time I heard of anyone paying for installation on a Haas. Mine was completely free including leveling and probe installation. The price also seems ridiculous.
 
He mailed Haas Europe to ask if the installation is included in the price or not. They responded that the policy is that the installation is included in the price, but that the HFO add installation costs for extra options that require some time to mount. The HFO says they have found a way to get bypass that policy and charge for the installan also because Haas does not compensate them for making the installations, and said all HFO's in Europe bypass it.


.

Seriously, that right there ^^^ warrants a call to Haas-corporate, or if that fails to an attorney who then calls Haas-corporate.
If installation is included in the purchase price, then installation IS INCLUDED IN THE PURCHASE PRICE!!!
Period, The End!

As far as compensation ( or lack thereof ) is concerned, that is NOT YOUR PROBLEM!
That should be between the HFO and Haas Europe!
They ( the HFO ) has a choice to honor the contract and install the machine on the agreed terms, re-negotiate the terms, or else get the F@ck out of the HFO business!
That's also a period, The End!

Finally the purchased options which are by definition field installable, that is also not your problem!
If the HFO doesn't like to spend time ( compensated or not ) to install them, they can negotiate with Haas-corporate to have them installed by factory!
In either case, it should not be the financial responsibility of the end user. The price is the price, and that's it!

That situation is all kinds of F-d up, and all WE ( from this side of the pond ) can say is that it does not work in such manner here!
Not with Haas, not with Brother, Mori, Makino or any other vendor that I know of!
 








 
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