P cool and auto air gun & 4th axis
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  1. #1
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    Default P cool and auto air gun & 4th axis

    With the rotary table being mounted on the same side as the p cool and auto air gun, do yíall see potential headaches?

    I order my new machine tomorrow and I canít get anything through spindle or I would so I was thinking next best thing would be the auto air gun and p cool but I read something about how it caused problems if you have a 4th axis rotary. So now Iím worried ima spend 4000 on something that could very well potentially cause more headache than they are worth?

    And if that is the cause maybe the high pressure flood would be a viable alternative to p cool? As far as air gun, I can make something that works without taken as much room.

    Also I noticed recently in options when pricing the machine that high pressure flood and variable flow coolant was listed as a paid option but donít remember that being the case a few months back. Is that an option that was standard at one time and now you have to pay, is it new or am I having a 39 year old senior moment and itís been there all along?

    I wonít be getting anything through tool/spindle coolant or air as I mentioned above but Iím curious to know what supplies air to the tab system? Is it from your compressor or does haas use a stand alone Pump/compressor? I looked at installation and it doesnít say anything about installing an air producing unit so Iím guessing it uses the air you are already supplying to machine and why they make you order through spindle coolant in order to be able to get the air blast?

    I might have a few more questions before I order tomorrow so just bare with me till then.

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    I can't speak to interferences with the 4th, but I will give my opinion that I wouldn't order a machine without pcool after having it (unless all my gauge lengths were within an inch or two). I also wouldn't order a machine without the high pressure flood coolant if I was not getting thru spindle. I'd still get HP with TDC if at all possible. The HP really does help keep chips out of the way.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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    My $.02.

    Pcool = Absolutely must have

    HP flood = Mehh... I don't know anything about it, didn't know it even existed. Standard flood coolant is OK

    TSC = Very nice to have! If you can't swing it now, how'bout just the TSC ready option?

    Air gun = Have it on 2 machines just 'cos I was lazy to roll-my-own like I did on the other 2. Otherwise, spend that money elsewhere, specially when it can be retrofitted later if needed.

    4th axis = You did not say what VF machine you're getting. On the VF4 or bigger, the 8" rotary can easily live on the left side of the table.
    I've got 2 VF4-s, but my reasoning was the X travel and not the Z height and the longest tool I might use is maybe 8" max.

    Side mount vs. Umbrella = Biggest money saver! If you can live with the umbrella, that 20K will go a Fu$kton long way towards other options!!! It'll buy all of the above!

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    p cool or anything mounted to the right side of the spindle gets in the way of the 4th axis rotarys, specifically if your running on a vf2 or smaller with a 210.
    you need to be very carefull in how you set up your rotary and your tool length. sometimes you have to set your part farther our from the rotary with a fixture to get the needed clearance.

    Running a collet closer rotary isnt as big of deal as you have lots of clearance.
    I have p cool do I like it NO, do I hate it no. is it usefull to be honest no. I have other machines that dont have pcool and never had any problems with getting coolant to any tool all the way to running supper long tools and short tools at the same time.
    it just takes common sense in how you set your lines and how you point them.
    personally I like them as close to the spindle and pointing down.

    put it this way with p cool, you have a 6" long drill and your drilling 4" your coolant isnt going to hit it with p cool unless you adjust it as your running.
    same goes for a small 2" long drill going 1.5" deep or even 1" deep. endmills 1/2" 1-1/4 LOC you not going to hit the coolant spot you need to with pcool especially of your doing steep downs in blocks of material unless you adjust while running. and you dont get that much flow, pressure is pretty good.
    I wouldnt make a point of buying it specifically I heard it was the RAGE,and the latest and greatest but it was already installed on the machine we got from our HFO so why not.
    I been running it for 11 years along with 2 others sitting right next to it with our pcool. in the 30 years I been running mills and lathes Ive never seen a reason to really have it.

    The air gun sticks out farther from the pics I have seen, but I dont run air on tools either so cant tell you about those.

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    I have a VF2 with HRT160 and you just have to be careful how you set it up.
    You can use longer tool holders, extended gage length to add clearance.
    I do that all the time. Just add a tool change reposition line in the G code
    to move the table X- a few inches to allow for a tool change without hitting the work piece.
    Air gun is nice especially if you want to run some of the newer coated carbide that recommend
    not running coolant due to thermal shock. I have an air blast setup that I attach to my P cool when
    needed or hardened steels. I just run a solenoid valve off an spare M code relay. Work awesome.
    I just unclamp it from the P cool nozzle and remove the hose when it's not needed.
    Probably cost $30 in material, including the valve/regulator.

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    P-cool -
    Get it if you are going to be using alot of varying length tools (M taper drills, stubby side locks...). As far as adjusting on the go as someone else mentioned, there is a spot to the left of the tool height register to put the number in so it goes to that position for that tool. I don't see an interference issue with a 4th any more than a toolholder. Newer ones are mounted so the unit is right next to the head, and th nozzle is basically level with the gage line. Also, last one I used had 30 positions, plus you can tweak the copper tube and pretty much cover for 3-6-7" or so difference between tools.

    Tool change issues-
    Only a problem with a side mount as the arm 'drops' the tool approx 4" when changing, bad if you are above your rotary with a long tool.9 (but easy to alias you M6 code to move to a safe position). Also, the 210 is kind of large for a VF2, go with a 160 if possible.

    TSC-
    I would say only get if you really think you will need. Takes a few seconds to turn on and off, leaves toolholders messy with dripping coolant. Can be expensive maint if you forget you have a regular pullstud and the TSC is flooding the head/bearings. Plus need TSC pullstuds, same price more or less (I think)

    Air-
    Air gun is self contained. BUT needs manual adjustment for each tool (to be super effective). The nozzle extends with air pressure when activated, can hit toolholder or tool if not adjusted properly. Also, only really good for cutting steels IMO, if you don't cut alot of steel, waste of money. Air blast and THRU spindle air blast are different. Regular air blast should not require the TSC option.

    Not mentioned-
    Not really needed for a small VF2-4 machine IMO, but the remote jog is pretty nifty. Last one I used was a color LCD screen, which incorporated almost all the functions of the controller, work offsets, jog speed/handle, coolant, cycle start/stop, etc etc

    edit: PROBING PROBING PROBING! Don't skip this, for 5k'ish it adds sooo much to the machining capabilities, even if you are macro-deficient like me. In process checks, picking up each part, etc...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delw View Post
    p cool or anything mounted to the right side of the spindle gets in the way of the 4th axis rotarys, specifically if your running on a vf2 or smaller with a 210.
    you need to be very carefull in how you set up your rotary and your tool length. sometimes you have to set your part farther our from the rotary with a fixture to get the needed clearance.

    Running a collet closer rotary isnt as big of deal as you have lots of clearance.
    I have p cool do I like it NO, do I hate it no. is it usefull to be honest no. I have other machines that dont have pcool and never had any problems with getting coolant to any tool all the way to running supper long tools and short tools at the same time.
    it just takes common sense in how you set your lines and how you point them.
    personally I like them as close to the spindle and pointing down.

    put it this way with p cool, you have a 6" long drill and your drilling 4" your coolant isnt going to hit it with p cool unless you adjust it as your running.
    same goes for a small 2" long drill going 1.5" deep or even 1" deep. endmills 1/2" 1-1/4 LOC you not going to hit the coolant spot you need to with pcool especially of your doing steep downs in blocks of material unless you adjust while running. and you dont get that much flow, pressure is pretty good.
    I wouldnt make a point of buying it specifically I heard it was the RAGE,and the latest and greatest but it was already installed on the machine we got from our HFO so why not.
    I been running it for 11 years along with 2 others sitting right next to it with our pcool. in the 30 years I been running mills and lathes Ive never seen a reason to really have it.

    The air gun sticks out farther from the pics I have seen, but I dont run air on tools either so cant tell you about those.
    If you have P-cool, check on your tool offset page. There is a place to set a number so the Pcool adjust to same position, for each tool. Should be a number, 1-20 or 1-30...

    edit: And honestly, it's a $1600 option. If you are financing, mehh... if you have a hard budget, maybe a pass...

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    The P-Cool is worth it. We have VF2 w/ rotary and p-cool and you do have to be careful with table work and some vise work, but it's worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    If you have P-cool, check on your tool offset page. There is a place to set a number so the Pcool adjust to same position, for each tool. Should be a number, 1-20 or 1-30...

    edit: And honestly, it's a $1600 option. If you are financing, mehh... if you have a hard budget, maybe a pass...
    Mike
    Yeah I know how to adjust it, I just dont like it. it would work better if it could be adjust to move from one postition to another automatically(oscillate?) while its peck drilling. if your cutting the left side of the part the p cool wont hit the tool except on the very top of the part.
    do a floor and have to do holes on the right side of the part and your walls are over .600 high you cant get the stream right on the tip of tool or tap as the wall blocks it.

    makes no difference to me as I have it,plus it was already on the machine from the dealer. when its in the way I disconnect it zip tie it up. Pretty much run the fadal with the 4th now anyhow one cause its a 40x20 and mostly indexing parts.

    I do like those new hass coolant rings on the newer machines, I need to find one or make one for the 2009 era. its something like 270 degrees with adjustable spray nozzles.

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    Check out RedboneTool. he makes coolant rings for Haas and an airblast ring.

    RedBoneTool

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    Now This is a nice setup.
    Hacking the Auto Air Gun - YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delw View Post
    Mike
    Yeah I know how to adjust it, I just dont like it. it would work better if it could be adjust to move from one postition to another automatically(oscillate?) while its peck drilling. if your cutting the left side of the part the p cool wont hit the tool except on the very top of the part.
    do a floor and have to do holes on the right side of the part and your walls are over .600 high you cant get the stream right on the tip of tool or tap as the wall blocks it.

    makes no difference to me as I have it,plus it was already on the machine from the dealer. when its in the way I disconnect it zip tie it up. Pretty much run the fadal with the 4th now anyhow one cause its a 40x20 and mostly indexing parts.

    I do like those new hass coolant rings on the newer machines, I need to find one or make one for the 2009 era. its something like 270 degrees with adjustable spray nozzles.
    I was just going to say the new machines have a coolant ring! Only 4 nozzles though. I ran a machine years ago that had the Haas lathe style coolant "nozzles", just a ball bearing type thing with a hole in it, you could aim that anywhere.

    PS. I misunderstood your post about P cool I guess. I thought you were using the Pcool up/down key for each tool change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    My $.02.

    Pcool = Absolutely must have

    HP flood = Mehh... I don't know anything about it, didn't know it even existed. Standard flood coolant is OK

    TSC = Very nice to have! If you can't swing it now, how'bout just the TSC ready option?

    Air gun = Have it on 2 machines just 'cos I was lazy to roll-my-own like I did on the other 2. Otherwise, spend that money elsewhere, specially when it can be retrofitted later if needed.

    4th axis = You did not say what VF machine you're getting. On the VF4 or bigger, the 8" rotary can easily live on the left side of the table.
    I've got 2 VF4-s, but my reasoning was the X travel and not the Z height and the longest tool I might use is maybe 8" max.

    Side mount vs. Umbrella = Biggest money saver! If you can live with the umbrella, that 20K will go a Fu$kton long way towards other options!!! It'll buy all of the above!
    Actually, a base model VF2 with an upgrade to the 30 SMTC option is about $8k putting it around $54k.

    A VF2ss base model, which includes the 30 SMTC as standard is about $58k. I absolutely hate the 20 tool carousel, slow, and it always seems like we need about 22 or 23 tools to be able to leave tooling set up for probably 75% of our parts. The 30 tool gets us that and more. Looking forward to getting all the tools loaded (on a run of 200 pieces now with only a handful of tools) up and seeing in reality how often we need to change them in and out. I'm hoping for 0.

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    Well, to each his own I guess.
    I for one will likely never get a Haas with a sidemount, and unless I absolutely need it, I won't be getting a probe either.

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    A lot of people commented. Didnít realize. I ordered the machine and i got more questions about the discounts donít match what they should be. But I ordered the vf4ss and hrc210. I was going go to go with the hrt310 but after a lot of thought it was more than I need and Iím pretty sure a lot bigger than itís 210 cousin. I did not get the p cool or the auto air gun. Iíll had the p cool later when Iím comfortable running the machine but I would like to come up with something higher pressure for the air gun so it will be on its own air supply. Thank yíall so much for the help. Iíve been asking question on here like a mad man for over a year and 99 percent of the time itís been positive thank yíall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Well, to each his own I guess.
    I for one will likely never get a Haas with a sidemount, and unless I absolutely need it, I won't be getting a probe either.
    This really has me scratching my head. I guess there's nothing like making your own life harder to save a very small amount of money in the grand scheme of things.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Well, to each his own I guess.
    I for one will likely never get a Haas with a sidemount, and unless I absolutely need it, I won't be getting a probe either.
    Have you ever used a probe? If buying new, you'll sorely regret not spending 5-6k for a probe. Especially since they (the new machines) are even more locked down which makes using a traditional edge finder harder than ever. And the side mount + an additional 10 tool pockets... You can set tools as heavy or large and change the behaviour, unlike a 'dumb' umbrella carousel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    You can set tools as heavy or large and change the behaviour, unlike a 'dumb' umbrella carousel.
    This can easily be done with the umbrella style.

    Large or heavy tool in pocket 3, leave 2 and 4 empty.
    Just skip tools 2 and 4 when programming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roamer View Post
    This can easily be done with the umbrella style.

    Large or heavy tool in pocket 3, leave 2 and 4 empty.
    Just skip tools 2 and 4 when programming.
    LoL ya I suppose you can... and they all offer manual toolchanges too, just hit the tool release button!

    edit: umbrella doesn't care if the tool is heavy or not, still going to rotate at one speed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirAIG View Post
    This really has me scratching my head. I guess there's nothing like making your own life harder to save a very small amount of money in the grand scheme of things.

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

    Hope you're not suggesting that me not getting either the probe or the sidemount was somehow to save money, are you?


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