Qualichem 251c staining way covers?
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    Default Qualichem 251c staining way covers?

    Does anyone else get these black stains from where coolant has sat? A Have a VF2SSYT, took it in 2 months ago. Using qualichem 251, they sent me some anti staining additive. Time will tell if this fixes it.

    Blow off the coolant off the way and table before shutting off.

    Only cutting 6061, mixture is at 9-10%

    I blow the coolant off the table and covers at the end of day.

    They have been great in trying to find whats going on but wanted to reach out to other hass owners. I've sent tap and tank samples to qualichem, they both came back great.


    90434862_10217692440888121_3421028424351744000_o.jpg

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    I use 250C and run it at 7% and have not had any pain ot staining at all in 5+ years on Haas machines, you might ask them about the 251C in that the factory rep that got my started with Qualichem told me "NOT" to use the 251C and to stick with 250C

    Have you machined any copper or brass at all?

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    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    I use 250C and run it at 7% and have not had any pain ot staining at all in 5+ years on Haas machines, you might ask them about the 251C in that the factory rep that got my started with Qualichem told me "NOT" to use the 251C and to stick with 250C

    Have you machined any copper or brass at all?
    Curious why the rep said NO to 251c? Iíve ran it in the past on other machines no problem.

    Only have cut alum. Went with 251c because Iíll eventually cut SS as well.

    Hoping the additive they sent works.


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    Its your water, its your percentage, its your breath, its your breakfast...I mean seriously that is PH staining. Expect some pretty cruddy stains. Virtually all cosmetic

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    Default Qualichem 251c staining way covers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedie View Post
    Its your water, its your percentage, its your breath, its your breakfast...I mean seriously that is PH staining. Expect some pretty cruddy stains. Virtually all cosmetic
    Test results coming back from qualichem said Ph is 8.9 was told this was normal?


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    I think 251C is an EP version (and then some) of 250.

    Curious from the OP's picture if that staining isn't very fine chip scratching instead. I can see with heavy chip count and coolant flow pouring out of those t-slots day in and day out scratching the top of that fixed cover. Just an idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 13engines View Post
    I think 251C is an EP version (and then some) of 250.

    Curious from the OP's picture if that staining isn't very fine chip scratching instead. I can see with heavy chip count and coolant flow pouring out of those t-slots day in and day out scratching the top of that fixed cover. Just an idea.
    Thatís a very sound idea, thank you.

    The front y axis cover I use as scrotch bright pad to clean the cover. The pad cleaned it off. Rubbing my hand over it, the stain didnít feel gritty.

    I then cleaned the machine, blew off the covers and let the machine sit idle over the weekend. Staining started to reappear

    First picture is front y axis cover clean

    2/3rd picture are controls to see if the additive works.


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    Had another thought after re-reading the original post. This machines is new to you. If you brought it in and went immediately to a QualChem of any type, I can see where the inclination is towards something is wrong with the coolant. My bet is that the metal on the way covers was already compromised when you bought it. It had only been rubbed out and hidden. On purpose or otherwise it would be hard to know. Many metals once rusted or stained can be made to look near new again with as you said, a little elbow grease and a scotch pad. Add oxygen and water over time and the corrosion, for no better word, finds its way back.

    Just like body work on a car. You can treat and sand the rust all you want, but if you don't cut it out it will be back... guaranteed.

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    The Z axis does not have any staining.

    I did go straight to 251c right when the machine was commission. Other friends/ people Iíve talked to who use it, have not had the same effect. One guy using different oil had the same effect but much worst.


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    Confirmed with the factory that they are now using SS way covers with zinc coating.

    Also found out the tab that the 4 SHCS go through to secure the cover to the table is a separate piece from the way cover. The tab is spot welded and needs to have a bead of rtv, well mine came up. Cleaned the way cover (removed the staining) with a scrotchbrite, cleaned it good and applied a thick bead to seal up the tab/waycover joint.

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    Strange, I've been using 251c in varying concentration levels in 4 different machines for 4 years now. 3 Haas and one Sharnoa. No staining. 3 machines use the same city water and one uses well water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TCFab View Post
    Strange, I've been using 251c in varying concentration levels in 4 different machines for 4 years now. 3 Haas and one Sharnoa. No staining. 3 machines use the same city water and one uses well water.
    I want to believe there is something on the way covers that is reacting to coolant/material but have no proof, just got to take it day by day. The rear Y-axis seal I had to remove, as it was coming off. You can see the seal came off and dangling over to the left in the picture. Tells me the sealant didnt stick to the metal well. Which supports something is on the way covers.

    img_0003.jpg

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    Coolant can be a nightmare --- and has been for many shops here on PM, with all the things that can go wrong with it, or bad things it can cause.

    I realize you want to keep your machine looking sharp, but to me if a little way-cover staining is the only negative to the coolant you're using, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

    The most important thing about the way covers is their function....keep the chips off, and especially out of the rubber way wipers. And replace those when necessary!

    ToolCat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djstorm100 View Post
    I want to believe there is something on the way covers that is reacting to coolant/material but have no proof, just got to take it day by day. The rear Y-axis seal I had to remove, as it was coming off. You can see the seal came off and dangling over to the left in the picture. Tells me the sealant didnt stick to the metal well. Which supports something is on the way covers.
    I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier. The steel in those covers were compromised before you got the machine. How is anybody's guess. They were likely cleaned up as you have done with a scotch pad. Once compromised that material is going to keep doing what it's doing and there is nothing you can do about it except replace them if it bothers you that much.

    Try to wrap your head around what it's like at the manufacturing plant of those way covers. Whether that's Haas or whoever. They're making way covers buy the hundreds if not thousands. If you think that every single inside corner of every way cover they make is going to end up absolutely clean and free of oil before they apply that sealant I'd say someone's dreaming. As an example, do you completely remove all oil, grease or foreign matter out of every hole and screw you decide to use thread locker on? Few can answer that in the affirmative. Sealants always seem to be some sort of crap shoot as to how well they'll hold and for how long. Especially in a coolant infested machine tool environment. I've had enough machines torn apart to see way cover seals, way wipers and sealant applications in all states of effectiveness including completely missing. The whole thing is a tough sell, and I'm betting you'll sleep better if you can accept that things like that aren't always perfect. At least not forever. The great thing is if you have the time and energy, you can redo all of it to meet your personal satisfactions. :-) But even then don't expect it to last forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cnctoolcat View Post
    Coolant can be a nightmare --- and has been for many shops here on PM, with all the things that can go wrong with it, or bad things it can cause.

    I realize you want to keep your machine looking sharp, but to me if a little way-cover staining is the only negative to the coolant you're using, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

    The most important thing about the way covers is their function....keep the chips off, and especially out of the rubber way wipers. And replace those when necessary!

    ToolCat
    You are right function over look.
    It's more because it should not be happening is why I'm pushing it with Haas and Coolant company/rep. Have 7 friends around me with machines up to 1.5 years older than mine that use 250c/251c they do not have this issue.



    Quote Originally Posted by 13engines View Post
    I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier. The steel in those covers were compromised before you got the machine. How is anybody's guess. They were likely cleaned up as you have done with a scotch pad. Once compromised that material is going to keep doing what it's doing and there is nothing you can do about it except replace them if it bothers you that much.

    Try to wrap your head around what it's like at the manufacturing plant of those way covers. Whether that's Haas or whoever. They're making way covers buy the hundreds if not thousands. If you think that every single inside corner of every way cover they make is going to end up absolutely clean and free of oil before they apply that sealant I'd say someone's dreaming. As an example, do you completely remove all oil, grease or foreign matter out of every hole and screw you decide to use thread locker on? Few can answer that in the affirmative. Sealants always seem to be some sort of crap shoot as to how well they'll hold and for how long. Especially in a coolant infested machine tool environment. I've had enough machines torn apart to see way cover seals, way wipers and sealant applications in all states of effectiveness including completely missing. The whole thing is a tough sell, and I'm betting you'll sleep better if you can accept that things like that aren't always perfect. At least not forever. The great thing is if you have the time and energy, you can redo all of it to meet your personal satisfactions. :-) But even then don't expect it to last forever.
    I never dismissed your original post about them being compromised, sorry if projected that I was. Nothing last forever, expect death. The more testing and waiting the more it's leaning to way covers. I personally haven't seen sealant just lift and not leave residue unless it was the wrong sealant for the job or the surface was contaminated (oil, dirt, etc). Both X and Y covers could lift up the end and pull them off as one unit. I'm 95% positive that when I've used loctie, I've clean the hole and screw. Yes I'm anal for the condition of my machines, cars, house. Some stuff, surprisingly, I can let go. But after writing that 120k check and the issues I've had, not letting this one go.

    Some have ask if the wipers are breaking down. If they were, how are the wipers material getting on to the top of the way cover closest to the table when coolant is flushing toward the sides.

    Example. How does the staining make a perfect radius like so... Let me know if the picture shows up please.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_0021.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djstorm100 View Post
    Some have ask if the wipers are breaking down. If they were, how are the wipers material getting on to the top of the way cover closest to the table when coolant is flushing toward the sides.

    Example. How does the staining make a perfect radius like so... Let me know if the picture shows up please.
    Hi Dj,

    Yes the picture showed up. I can understand you want your moneys worth and want to keep it nice. I try to take care of my stuff too, because all the checks come out of my pocket around here as well. Unless you can talk things over with the original owner and all others in between, you're at the point of where things are completely out of your control, except to the extent that you can likely keep them from getting worse. And to be honest I've never met a way cover wiper that was 100%. Again it's a tuff task to get full control over.

    The staining you talk about in the picture is pretty heavy, especially in the vertical bolted face of the cover in the picture. That looks like corrosion for sure and is not ever going to go away unless you replace the covers. I could take a million guesses as to why the staining is there and why it takes on this shape or that, and there's a good chance none of them would be correct. There's also the chance that the material was somehow stained in the storage yard before the cover was ever formed. Wouldn't surprise me if a way cover builder person had some let's-clean-this-up-quick tricks of the trade that would get it past inspection but haunt those down the line. (Whether that person realized it would come back or not.)

    See if you can't talk to the other owners. Could be something a person had never thought of until hearing it from the horses mouth.

    Good luck with finding answers. Get any definitive ones try to let us know.

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    Do yourself a huge favor, drill a few holes in the table, or better yet rapid a shell mill into the table. After that you won't waste any more precious time with some trivial stains.

    I get random rusting with 585XT, yea it's f'ing annoying, but I don't have time to worry about the minor rusting I do get. I wipe it off with some scotchbrite and get on with making chips.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 13engines View Post
    Hi Dj,

    Yes the picture showed up. I can understand you want your moneys worth and want to keep it nice. I try to take care of my stuff too, because all the checks come out of my pocket around here as well. Unless you can talk things over with the original owner and all others in between, you're at the point of where things are completely out of your control, except to the extent that you can likely keep them from getting worse. And to be honest I've never met a way cover wiper that was 100%. Again it's a tuff task to get full control over.

    The staining you talk about in the picture is pretty heavy, especially in the vertical bolted face of the cover in the picture. That looks like corrosion for sure and is not ever going to go away unless you replace the covers. I could take a million guesses as to why the staining is there and why it takes on this shape or that, and there's a good chance none of them would be correct. There's also the chance that the material was somehow stained in the storage yard before the cover was ever formed. Wouldn't surprise me if a way cover builder person had some let's-clean-this-up-quick tricks of the trade that would get it past inspection but haunt those down the line. (Whether that person realized it would come back or not.)

    See if you can't talk to the other owners. Could be something a person had never thought of until hearing it from the horses mouth.

    Good luck with finding answers. Get any definitive ones try to let us know.


    This is a brand new (not used) machine from Haas, build date 1/08/2020 and commission date was 1/24/20. It has 22 hours of cutting (only 6061). I’m the only
    Owner. Haas is sending a tech out.


    Sorry if there were confusion, I’ve got few friends who have their own vf2/3 that are no more than a year old of mine. The guys use the same coolant and are not experiencing this issues


    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Do yourself a huge favor, drill a few holes in the table, or better yet rapid a shell mill into the table. After that you won't waste any more precious time with some trivial stains.

    I get random rusting with 585XT, yea it's f'ing annoying, but I don't have time to worry about the minor rusting I do get. I wipe it off with some scotchbrite and get on with making chips.
    Regardless of what you think, this shouldn’t be happening. Good friend who machine is 4 months older than mine cutting 6061 and using the same coolant doesn’t do this. Point, it’s not normal. Seals coming off, can pull the seals off as one unit. Stains, corrosion, reaction. Something is not right, more so when z axis looks brand new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djstorm100 View Post
    This is a brand new (not used) machine from Haas, build date 1/08/2020 and commission date was 1/24/20. It has 22 hours of cutting (only 6061). I’m the only Owner. Haas is sending a tech out.
    Ahhh... well as the guard to the gates of Oz said to Dorothy and her friends... "Now that's a horse of a different color!"

    I think Haas says to use regular water on the first charge of coolant. If you did that it could be you have some nasty water coming out of your faucet, and the new coolant got the best of your way covers before you caught on. Hopefully by now you're using RO/DI water for top off, and not letting the concentration go lean on you. (Which is hard to do.) That or as I said, way cover manufacturing storage or build mishaps.

    Curious what Haas will say and do. Do tell.

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    Default Qualichem 251c staining way covers?

    Quailchem said to charge with tap and then top with 1 gallon distilled, every two gallons of distilled use 1 gallon tap if I want. They also said my area in NC has really good tap water.

    Attach is the coolant report.

    Haas just stars to use water solvable coolant ( going by their layout manual)






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