A side conversation to the Haas Owners Unit

SIM · Jul 20, 2018

I'm thinking the main thread should be kept to Haas owners frustration with the 15k processor fix AKA- upgrade.

So...I have heard this question and heard some answers, but I still do not get it.

Processor dies on an older machine...it cannot be fixed, repaired or replaced by Haas.

I do not understand that.

Why? Well I deal with companies that design and build their own computer specialized systems, they have boards made in small batchs all the time. I deal with a company that retrofits their machine with its own systems that get integrated into a base machines system...all computerized.

If a chip was somebody else's and they do not have the means to use...I still cannot help but think a few brilliant people at Haas cannot reverse engineer what was done 15-20 years ago duplicating with todays technology at a fraction of the upgrade cost. Pull the processor board and make some kind of emulator board to replace it. Could be made at a price that allows HFO to make some money, a price that allows Haas proper to make some money and a price I have to think about a little before saying fix it.
I have no issues paying for a fix...but it has to be reasonable to the machine. A $15,000.00 fix on a machine that is worth $15,000.00 when running is not a sensible solution.

Been said, but I repeat like cucumbers...the $15,000.00 fix being claimed as an UPGRADE is far from an upgrade...this is not like putting a supercharger on a car so you get more power and performance. I still get same machine, same cuts, same feeds, same finish, same accuracy, same repeatability... ALL I get for $15,000.00 is the same machine back and running with a pretty screen.

Zahnrad Kopf · Jul 20, 2018

Possibly more apropos would be the simile of a pig wearing lipstick.

What makes this even more offensive to owners is that this is not limited to just the processor "forced upgrade". This exists in several other cases, as well. Read our own experience with the "obsolete" valve replacement. They will indeed sell another one the same as the first one, for the newer price of $275.00.

And yet... one can source a new replacement of it for $35.00.

Explain the rationale there. I'd LOVE to hear it.

"No. That valve is obsolete. It's no longer available. You'll have to purchase the upgrade kit, which is a new valve, priced at $275.00."

"Isn't this just the same valve?"

"No, it's different inside."

< ZK cocks an eyebrow toward the heavens > "Uh huh. And the old one isn't available any longer? Anywhere?"

"No. Nowhere. This is what you need to get your machine running again."

"Right."

ZK opens a browser, uses Google to search the valve, and immediately finds THOUSANDS of returns which help him purchase a new valve for $35.00. ( actually paid $50 and had it overnighted )

It sure sounds to me and several others like Haas is not making specific parts extinct as much as they are making themselves extinct.

Ziggy2 · Jul 20, 2018

Not a big Haas fan but they do offer good support and a decent machine at a price point that is attractive to many owners.

Here is the dilemma that many machine tool manufacturers get caught in. Technology is allowing each generation of product to have ever increasing capabilities without necessarily having direct cost increases.

The increased productivity either needs to be filled with more production or else a decreased number of units required to fill the market demand. This issue applies to Ag manufacturers, construction manufacturers, etc. Since the equipment manufacturer is selling fewer units of a design to fill the market need, the engineering and support costs needs to be amortized over fewer units sold. This reduces the profit margin substantially.

The manufacturer has the choice of either reducing the cost of manufacturing or else raise the sell price.

From a demographic viewpoint, the old machines, which are still running fine, create a market price cap on the price of new machines. These old machines that are still reliable and serviceable are direct competition to new machine sales.

So how does a manufacturer compete when they are their own biggest competitor? Well, you can obsolete everything in a given number of years, forcing either an expensive upgrade path to a new generation of control or else junking the machine when it breaks.

This business model is very common in the software industry (Microsoft), consumer appliances, etc. Microsoft would not be the size they are if they continued to allow their customer base to still use legacy products and support them.

This does not imply that I agree with the whole model but it is a cold hard reality of being in business that you need to have a continued revenue stream if you want to keep the doors open. Only way to do this in Haas's case is sell new machines, to new and old customers or service support.

Service support is tricky in that if you build a good product, little support will be generally needed outside of the standard attrition rate curves of the components.

If everything is designed well and lasts longer than the original planned design life, then the machine becomes a huge impediment to new machine sales.

The consumer appliance sector has become very good at manufacturing products that will last 30 days longer than the warranty before failure. They spend millions in cost effect engineering to get the life expectancy/ warranty cost/sale price curve just right.

This works well for them though I despise this whole mindset but we would find a machine tool that lasted exactly 61 months unacceptable. There is also not the quantity to scale of number of units manufactured per year to yield accurate design life curves.

What this all means is that Haas has been successful in market penetration. Increasing the number of units sold will be very difficult at this stage. Increasing after market service support dollars will also be difficult beyond the normal dollars/ operating units in the field curve.

From a business view, Haas needs to either increase legacy machine support dollars or else sunset the machines and this is exactly what they are doing.

This also means that the legacy machine owners, current machine owners, and potential future machine owners have choice to make. Either you make plans for replacing the legacy machines at breakdown or else pay the cost of an upgrade path.

This very issue is one of the factors that lead to Fadal's down fall. Because they used off the shelf components, there was very little after market parts sales. This is great for the owner in the short run but is not sustainable for the machine tool manufacturer in the long run.

SIM · Jul 20, 2018

Zahnrad Kopf said:
Read our own experience with the "obsolete" valve replacement. They will indeed sell another one the same as the first one, for the newer price of $275.00.

And yet... one can source a new replacement of it for $35.00.

Explain the rationale there. I'd LOVE to hear it.

/QUOTE]

If you want to call up a Dealer and expect them to have parts on the shelf in their warehouse, cataloged with part numbers along with a phone tech at the ready to walk you through diagnosis and install -OR- better yet call for service and have a Tech come with the PART in his fully stocked VAN the next day.

Yes there is a price to pay. It may be 3, 4 or 5 times the cost of me calling up Jack's Air Valve Components in Central US where he has a small warehouse in rural USA that cost next to nothing to operate...he can take an order, but can't tell you squat about what it does on your machine...how to troubleshoot or install...he can just SHIP NEXT DAY RED at 1/5th the price.

That is why parts are pricey. Yes, I think I bought the same valve module that I had to reconfigure to get to fit in the machine...yes, pricey.

Could also talk about the old limit switches...at $50-$60 each plus NEXT DAY RED as compared to McMaster switch that looked very similar but may not fit at less then $10 bucks.

Haas is there to make money, HFO is there to make money...I make money with machines running. My dad used to say "We can all get a slice of the pie and enjoy or one can choke gorging themselves on the whole pie. I'd rather a slice and share the pie"

Haas used to be reasonable...pricing that made me think twice, realize maybe I should maybe source, but in the end buy and be done.

Contrast that to to my last brand...Service tech working on machine, he says Tach generator needed brushes. I call and they tell me $110.00. You must be kidding me, they are little 6mm x 8mm brushes...how come $110.00? Guy on phone said, Yeah $110 each AND I will Need 4 Brushes...plus overnight or wait a few days for them to come ground. I asked if I could use Brushes from elsewhere and was told if tech installed and something went south, they do not cover the repair. At the time he was changing boards...So I ponied up the $440.00 for 4 little brushes.

That is bend you over a barrel...that is why I went to Haas.
If Haas tries to bend me over a Barrel in a similar fashion that relationship will too be over. $15,000.00 for a processor board replacement is that barrel.

Zahnrad Kopf · Jul 20, 2018

Your logic fails on that.

I am not complaining about them making money. I want the companies I choose to do business with to thrive. What I take exception to, is arbitrarily labeling an item as "obsolete" for the purpose of price gouging a customer base. That very same valve was $100 just two years ago. Nothing about it changed. Nothing but Haas deciding it was time to price gouge.

The one I bought is the exact same as the OEM. The MAC label is still present. That is how I found it. I simply entered the MAC part number into the search engine. So this is not fiddling around with something similar in effort to adapt it and make it work. This is apples to apples. The exact same part.

I was perfectly willing to spend the $100 for the pleasure of them having it in stock and getting it on its way to us. However, I am NOT willing to idly grab my ankles, and let Haas feed us horseshit so they can arbitrarily abuse their ( previously ) loyal customer base.

To be clear - that is exactly how they are losing customer base. Like I wrote in another thread, when discussing a machine purchase we are looking at - We have 4 MTBs showing us machines and peripherals right this minute. When it happens, this will likely be a $0.5M purchase. Haas has completely eliminated the possibility of being a part of this process by their conduct of business practices over the last few years. I am not willing to endure their BS any more.

We are just one, small, Mom'n'Pop shop. I can name five others that feel the same way, right off the top of my head. So how many more have they shot themselves in the foot with? And then, how many more larger shops are feeling this way, too? I can think of one, multinational large corporation in Milwaukee, right away, without even trying.

So how much money are they actually making like this? And how much money are they losing? And how much future business are they telling people that they do not desire?

Ziggy2 · Jul 20, 2018

SIM said:
Zahnrad Kopf said:

Read our own experience with the "obsolete" valve replacement. They will indeed sell another one the same as the first one, for the newer price of $275.00.

And yet... one can source a new replacement of it for $35.00.

Explain the rationale there. I'd LOVE to hear it.

/QUOTE]

If you want to call up a Dealer and expect them to have parts on the shelf in their warehouse, cataloged with part numbers along with a phone tech at the ready to walk you through diagnosis and install -OR- better yet call for service and have a Tech come with the PART in his fully stocked VAN the next day.

Yes there is a price to pay. It may be 3, 4 or 5 times the cost of me calling up Jack's Air Valve Components in Central US where he has a small warehouse in rural USA that cost next to nothing to operate...he can take an order, but can't tell you squat about what it does on your machine...how to troubleshoot or install...he can just SHIP NEXT DAY RED at 1/5th the price.

That is why parts are pricey. Yes, I think I bought the same valve module that I had to reconfigure to get to fit in the machine...yes, pricey.

Could also talk about the old limit switches...at $50-$60 each plus NEXT DAY RED as compared to McMaster switch that looked very similar but may not fit at less then $10 bucks.

Haas is there to make money, HFO is there to make money...I make money with machines running. My dad used to say "We can all get a slice of the pie and enjoy or one can choke gorging themselves on the whole pie. I'd rather a slice and share the pie"

Haas used to be reasonable...pricing that made me think twice, realize maybe I should maybe source, but in the end buy and be done.

Contrast that to to my last brand...Service tech working on machine, he says Tach generator needed brushes. I call and they tell me $110.00. You must be kidding me, they are little 6mm x 8mm brushes...how come $110.00? Guy on phone said, Yeah $110 each AND I will Need 4 Brushes...plus overnight or wait a few days for them to come ground. I asked if I could use Brushes from elsewhere and was told if tech installed and something went south, they do not cover the repair. At the time he was changing boards...So I ponied up the $440.00 for 4 little brushes.

That is bend you over a barrel...that is why I went to Haas.
If Haas tries to bend me over a Barrel in a similar fashion that relationship will too be over. $15,000.00 for a processor board replacement is that barrel.

Click to expand...

There is another option. Go to third party support for a board repair or replacement. This would probably be much cheaper but will not be supported by Haas after it is installed.

This also puts the responsibility and cost on you to get it to work.

I agree, putting $15000 into a $15000 machine does not make a lot of sense but it is the same dilemma that a person has in spending $5000 to fix a $5000 machine, just a different price point. Ultimately the question becomes' "How much is the machine worth to me?"

bryan_machine · Jul 20, 2018

economic push and pull above all well reasoned, i do not have much to add

As for the "why not build an emulator?" question:

1. Often the old design was in many ways sketchy, which can make it harder to emulate

2. While the resulting hardware can be very very cheap, the engineering time to make it is not

3. This means the substantial engineering cost has to be spread out over a small number of sales, and it doesn't pencil out.

In software, everybody (including MSFT) is under pressure from open source, and customers with finite patience for things not working and Very Deep Pockets - and the entire industry is fighting a desperate battle to get to some kind of ongoing revenue model.

And like software, it only takes one or two very very clever competitors with very good cost structures to flip the whole thing upside down (how many sales has haas lost to tormach over the years?....)

Clive603 · Jul 20, 2018

Emulation is the wrong approach. As bryan_machine says its basically an expensive way to replicate an old system with zilch advantages.

Better to take the opportunity to re-think the whole approach to CNC, which is donkeys years out of date, by exploiting modern inexpensive processors and programming techniques.

Assuming a vertical mill the axis encoder pulse output streams describe the 3D surface being cut with a half cutter width offset. Given modern processors and memory capabilities its a pretty trivial exercise to run such paths directly. No G-Code needed.

Obvious way is to start with the final pass and work backwards with suitable step overs until you reach the first cut. Then let it rip.

Constant cutter load? Easy.

HSM paths? Fundamentally it is HSM just set the cutting parameters and generate the cuts via a simple curve of pursuit routine.

There is already a ton of (re-useable) code devoted to their sort of shape analysis aimed at 3D printing and the like. Basically just run it backwards. Odds are the autonomous vehicle and semi-autonomous drone control folk have plenty of concepts and code blocks you could steal. Anyone like moi who has run a hybrid analogue-digital computer knows that there are fundamentally vastly faster methods but nowadays we have MIPS to burn. Mobile phone chips would be vastly overpowered for this.

Although its easiest to describe as millions of points 3-D bit map thats not actually the way things run. Actually with gigabytes of memory so cheap you probably could just run a point cloud for quite complex objects. But its a silly way to go. What you actually output is a continuous curve of velocity ratios for each axis. Easy to generate and almost trivially easy to exploit in the control.

Ladder logic? Machine specific posts? Fergeddem. Separate individual processors to drive tool changers and all the other gubbins. This is Rasberry Pi, Arduino et al stuff. The tools and much of the code blocks are out there. Tie it together with a supervisory program on the master processor that calls the right process at the right time and Roberts your mothers brother. Heck you could could code a crude, but functional master, in a couple of days with LabView. Obviously need a parameter set section for screw pitch, encoder rate and so on but thats not hard. Keyboard, screen and other operator interface things will need translation via either a personalisation routine or a hard programmed chip. Either is cheap. I'd prefer hard programmed chip converting to a standard output but personalisation routine is more flexible.

CAD interface? If it does 3D rendering you are already there. Just translate to real space instead of screen space. Probably need to model the starting block as well as the finished part. But what about all my G code programs? Just run them on a computer to translate to points in real space. Minor upgrade to the cut simulator routine really.

Whilst you are at it might as well put a bit of argumented reality capability in to rough verify material, mounting (vice?) and cutter positions to avoid collisions.

Nothing new, nothing expensive but the curve of pursuit routines have plenty of potential for improvement.

Clearly its not something you could develop to the nth degree and throw straight onto the market with your main line machines. But something suitable for the less ambitious user, whether Hass, Tormach et al or "retrofit anything", is feasible without silly development costs. Once you have a marketable starter product ant a sensible price development is relatively easy. Think what happened to PCs and SmartPhones.

Clive

wheelieking71 · Jul 20, 2018

bryan_machine said:
how many sales has haas lost to tormach over the years?....

I bet nowhere near as many as they loose to themselves as more and more people learn about, experience, and get fed up with, the current situations.

EmGo · Jul 20, 2018

Ziggy2 said:
This very issue is one of the factors that lead to Fadal's down fall.

Disagree with this, FADAL's downfall was when Giddings & Lewis bought them and flocked it up entirely. I love G&L but the FADAL just wasn't the right mindset for them.

They *should* have made it work but they didn't. Like HD with two-strokes. World champion in Europe, couldn't get out of its own way in the US.

Also, there's a big market for used stuff overseas. I could sell the poop out of Haas but not in this case. They've just flocked themselves in the cheapo overseas second-hand market.

Speedie · Jul 20, 2018

15 grand to modernize. What happened, did everyone get cheap? How many cpus go out anyways.

Milland · Jul 20, 2018

It's $15K to stand nearly still, the "modernization" doesn't really give you much more than the original capabilities. USB instead of floppy? Well, that's $5K right there, I guess...

No, it's not cheap, it's just asking for the same support of older machines that most other major MTM's offer. And not destroying resale value of old machines, or stabbing their customers in the back.

eaglemike · Jul 21, 2018

To be clear - it's $15K plus install - so closer to $20K most likely...... My quote from the local HFO was $15K for parts. Ouch. It had been a lot lower last year, about $10K to $12K total. Ouch again.

magno_grail · Jul 21, 2018

A lot of this comes down to "do I want to work on my own machine to keep it running or pay someone else to do it?"
Yes?
If you are a profitable shop then paying Haas prices and having someone else do the work makes sense since you can write it off as an expense.
Haas did not build every part of these machines but sources them from various companies. Some parts are unique to Haas (such as the NLA Paraline servo power supply transformers on my '91) but can be replaced with current production parts if you know what and where to look. Limit switch - Omron SPDT switch 653-D4MC-5020, $45 from Mouser.com
Note to Zahnrad - try carbonbrush.com, I got brush holders and brushes for my servos at a fraction of the cost of a servo repair shop.
For me, I could never recoup the cost of an "upgrade". The only original parts would be the frame, assuming the parts can be made to fit. So as I mentioned on the other thread I am working on a new computer using modern readily available parts. The basic program for controlling the servos is there, I need to make the interface the same as what I currently have (with a few improvements). Would many people buy it? I doubt it but with all the useless older Haas machines that are going to be sold for scrap, there are people starting out in CNC would spend a thousand or so to make them useful again.

EmGo · Jul 21, 2018

magno_grail said:
Would many people buy it? I doubt it ...

You are wrong about that. Make it work the same as a Haas and you will sell more control boards and software than Carter has liver pills.

Just make it professional. Some bodge that a fifteen year old "3d printer ! dxf-to-gcode ! wow d00d !" made in his bedroom is not going to cut it.

I'd ship them from Hong Kong for you if you like, but I think the fear of litigation in this case is overblown

What would be more likely is, after you spend the time and effort to make it all work, Haas would miraculously find a treasure trove of old processors "allowing" them to drop the price drastically. And the dipshits who are now all incensed would forget their displeasure instantly. Considering this deal, no one should buy a Haas now because they have just demonstrated that they are perfectly happy to fuck you. But people have no balls

guest · Jul 21, 2018

Zahnrad Kopf said:
...To be clear - that is exactly how they are losing customer base. Like I wrote in another thread, when discussing a machine purchase we are looking at - We have 4 MTBs showing us machines and peripherals right this minute. When it happens, this will likely be a $0.5M purchase. Haas has completely eliminated the possibility of being a part of this process by their conduct of business practices over the last few years. I am not willing to endure their BS any more.

We are just one, small, Mom'n'Pop shop. I can name five others that feel the same way, right off the top of my head. So how many more have they shot themselves in the foot with?

Thing is, I don't think they care. They don't want yours or my business- we aren't significant.

They want the shop with 60 or 100 machines on the floor, that get replaced every ten years on a schedule. That guy buys 6-10 machines every year, with an annual service contract on every one of them.

They couldn't care less about the resale value, or the guy that buys the used machine- he is a headache to them. The HFO doesn't want service guys that can actually troubleshoot- those guys cost money. They want recycled car mechanics that can swap out parts until the machine works again, and work for $20hr.

They don't want to inventory parts for old machines, and the techs don't know how to work on them anyway. If we call them and force them to send out a tech, they will send the most inexperienced guy they have, and we will have to show him how to fix the machine.

You will buy 4 machines and run them for 15 or 20 years. You aren't their target customer. Me either. They look at us like "free riders" who use their machines but don't send them any money. Half the time we'll figure out what parts we need and source them from someone else anyway to save a few bucks.

It's like my Atlas Copco compressor. They wouldn't sell me a seal kit, I had to replace the entire air end for $3K. I needed an O-ring on the inlet valve. They wanted $62 for a fucking #036 O-ring! $5 will get you 10 of them from McMaster.

Milland · Jul 21, 2018

guest said:
Thing is, I don't think they care. They don't want yours or my business- we aren't significant.

They may think they're that big now, but that's like salting on of your fields because you don't want to grow anything anymore - bad short AND long term thinking. Not that I disagree with your premise.

There's a few "Repair Option" or re-control threads, would be nice to have them become stickies and be able to follow them easily. I'm totally in for a "community" repair project, would even contribute money towards developing an open source control.

guest · Jul 21, 2018

Milland said:
...There's a few "Repair Option" or re-control threads, would be nice to have them become stickies and be able to follow them easily. I'm totally in for a "community" repair project, would even contribute money towards developing an open source control.

Anything that is a viable option on an old machine will draw a lawsuit. It's like those guys in Idaho that were selling Haas parts. They got sued and were forced to stop offering anything for a Haas.

We can't even get a decent plug and play LCD replacement display for the old CRT for under a grand. Why isn't someone doing something about that? There's a huge installed base of older Haas machines, and Haas wants them in the scrap yard. They have no problem throwing lawyer money to that end.

We can get good money for our old machines if we are willing to part them out. But that's not our business, it takes time and eats up floor space that we don't have to spare.

They want us to take that 20K we would pay to keep our old machine running, and put it down on a new machine. If we're not willing to do that, they really don't want to talk to us.

HuFlungDung · Jul 21, 2018

Speedie said:
15 grand to modernize. What happened, did everyone get cheap? How many cpus go out anyways.

I agree. I might not want to spend 20k to upgrade, but then I didn't want to spend 5k for a spindle rebuild either, or what was it $1500 for the 16 meg memory upgrade but I did. It's just like normal wear and tear, AFAIC. I've had 10 years use out of my VF3 with relatively low input cost and still need it running. A brand new machine is one hell of a lot more than 20k, so the upgrade is a no-brainer. Still, I might shop around for a replacement board before I take the big leap. I don't need Haas's blessing on a part if a jobber part will do the job for a fraction. I've not really given them much yet in the way of buying repair parts.

That's why we get a depreciation allowance for machinery.

guest · Jul 21, 2018

I'm not too cheap to modernize, but I want it to actually be a modernization.

For less than I would pay for the control replacement for my old VF-2, I bought a 15 year newer machine that is bigger, better, and faster in every way. And it has a Fanuc control, which I know will be supported ten years from now.

Funny thing is, the guy I bought it from replaced it with a new Haas. But he's the guy I mentioned before- he's now an all Haas shop, and automatically replaces everything when it hits 10 years old.

A side conversation to the Haas Owners Unit

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